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FFP - surely we are massively in credit?


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In a way, this is a January transfer window moan, because off of the top of my head, we must be in a very strong position as a buying club to bring in exactly who we want, for good money.

 We must be in very good health with respect to FFP.

This is mainly due to the below sales (I'm using approximate figures from memory):

Webster £18 million / Flint £6 million / Reid £10 million / Kelly £12 million / Bryan £6 million / Pack £4 million

Now that's roughly £56 million pound revenue. 

In the last 12 months we've spent:

£8M on Kalas / £2.5m on JD / £4m on Palmer/  £4million on Bentley / £1million for Smodicz / £3.5 million on HNM / and probably about another £2million on the other players, which is £25 million.

These figures aren't 100% accurate, but give a pretty good idea.  Which means we're still approx. £31million in credit with respect transfer fees.

Don't forget it was only about 3 years back that we secured another £12million on Kodjia, which would have covered the costs of Diedhou, O'Dowda, Brownhill, etc.

*** So with this in mind, why is FFP even a concern for us, and what is stopping us signing the players that would help us nail a top six place, and perhaps even win enough games to push for the top two?

Surely the above income gives us scope to increase the salary structure, if required to attract top Championship talent?

I really don't see what is holding us back, and doubt the other clubs around us have been as fortunate to generate £56 million pounds in player sales.

Edited by reddogkev
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3 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

Would this suggest that next season we’re in a strong position?

Yes, to an extent, because we remove that horrible £25m loss from the 3 year cycle.  Just depends on 19/20’s accounts...which as it stands looks as bad as 17/18’s!! Eeeek ☹️

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, to an extent, because we remove that horrible £25m loss from the 3 year cycle.  Just depends on 19/20’s accounts...which as it stands looks as bad as 17/18’s!! Eeeek ☹️

Damn, who can we offload to help off set this?

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2 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Damn, who can we offload to help off set this?

Off the top of my head:

Bentley 

Brownhill 

Eliasson

Diedhiou

Daniel Bentley probably a surprise for many, but you could get £6m for him (looks like we actually only paid £2m), and Mäenpää very decent, and fight it out with Max.  I appreciate Dan has his best years to come.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Off the top of my head:

Bentley 

Brownhill 

Eliasson

Diedhiou

Daniel Bentley probably a surprise for many, but you could get £6m for him (looks like we actually only paid £2m), and Mäenpää very decent, and fight it out with Max.  I appreciate Dan has his best years to come.

Selling Bentley would mean this team has no real ambition of getting promoted

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33 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

In a way, this is a January transfer window moan, because off of the top of my head, we must be in a very strong position as a buying club to bring in exactly who we want, for good money.

 We must be in very good health with respect to FFP.

This is mainly due to the below sales (I'm using approximate figures from memory):

Webster £18 million / Flint £6 million / Reid £10 million / Kelly £12 million / Bryan £6 million / Pack £4 million

Now that's roughly £56 million pound revenue. 

In the last 12 months we've spent:

£8M on Kalas / £2.5m on JD / £4m on Palmer/  £4million on Bentley / £1million for Smodicz / £3.5 million on HNM / and probably about another £2million on the other players, which is £25 million.

These figures aren't 100% accurate, but give a pretty good idea.  Which means we're still approx. £31million in credit with respect transfer fees.

Don't forget it was only about 3 years back that we secured another £12million on Kodjia, which would have covered the costs of Diedhou, O'Dowda, Brownhill, etc.

*** So with this in mind, why is FFP even a concern for us, and what is stopping us signing the players that would help us nail a top six place, and perhaps even win enough games to push for the top two?

Surely the above income gives us scope to increase the salary structure, if required to attract top Championship talent?

I really don't see what is holding us back, and doubt the other clubs around us have been as fortunate to generate £56 million pounds in player sales.

Not forgetting increased turnover from the stadium and ST sales 

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18 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Selling Bentley would mean this team has no real ambition of getting promoted

I am in a minority (I know) that wonders whether we’d be in a much different position without him, and Maenpaa instead.  Mäenpää’s injury record may be a factor though, I appreciate that.

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34 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Selling Bentley would mean this team has no real ambition of getting promoted

Oh no!!! Ambition. The buzzword to justify trashing the Clubs finances. If we get an offer from a Premiership team, hard to refuse, especially as we don’t need a replacement with Niki and Nax.

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1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

In a way, this is a January transfer window moan, because off of the top of my head, we must be in a very strong position as a buying club to bring in exactly who we want, for good money.

 We must be in very good health with respect to FFP.

This is mainly due to the below sales (I'm using approximate figures from memory):

Webster £18 million / Flint £6 million / Reid £10 million / Kelly £12 million / Bryan £6 million / Pack £4 million

Now that's roughly £56 million pound revenue. 

In the last 12 months we've spent:

£8M on Kalas / £2.5m on JD / £4m on Palmer/  £4million on Bentley / £1million for Smodicz / £3.5 million on HNM / and probably about another £2million on the other players, which is £25 million.

These figures aren't 100% accurate, but give a pretty good idea.  Which means we're still approx. £31million in credit with respect transfer fees.

Don't forget it was only about 3 years back that we secured another £12million on Kodjia, which would have covered the costs of Diedhou, O'Dowda, Brownhill, etc.

*** So with this in mind, why is FFP even a concern for us, and what is stopping us signing the players that would help us nail a top six place, and perhaps even win enough games to push for the top two?

Surely the above income gives us scope to increase the salary structure, if required to attract top Championship talent?

I really don't see what is holding us back, and doubt the other clubs around us have been as fortunate to generate £56 million pounds in player sales.

RDK you surely knew that FFP wasn't that simple. @Mr Popodopolous and @Davefevs have been very hot on spreading the word about the realities of FFP on this forum

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Off the top of my head:

Bentley 

Brownhill 

Eliasson

Diedhiou

Daniel Bentley probably a surprise for many, but you could get £6m for him (looks like we actually only paid £2m), and Mäenpää very decent, and fight it out with Max.  I appreciate Dan has his best years to come.

Selling Eliasson would be something we would regret, that lad is a fantastic player, I could honestly see him going to another Championship top 6 club and getting promoted with them as a key player.

I know we need to buy low and sell high but we also need to keep some players who can help the team progress. I can accept selling Brownhill if it secures Wells but we can't keep losing key players and having to develop replacements if we're aiming for promotion as we need that one season where we have experience and players of a high calibre. Right now we need to retain our players and sign a key forward or two, it's looking less and less likely that will happen with just one week to secure our signings and ensure they improve the team.

Diedhiou is the only player there I'd be ok with losing if it meant we brought in two strikers with at least one looking likely to be that player that can make the runs we're missing and cause problems in the box, the other exception being Brownhill if it's a must for the Wells deal to happen.

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2 minutes ago, Spike said:

Selling Eliasson would be something we would regret, that lad is a fantastic player, I could honestly see him going to another Championship top 6 club and getting promoted with them as a key player.

I know we need to buy low and sell high but we also need to keep some players who can help the team progress. I can accept selling Brownhill if it secures Wells but we can't keep losing key players and having to develop replacements if we're aiming for promotion as we need that one season where we have experience and players of a high calibre. Right now we need to retain our players and sign a key forward or two, it's looking less and less likely that will happen with just one week to secure our signings and ensure they improve the team.

Diedhiou is the only player there I'd be ok with losing if it meant we brought in two strikers with at least one looking likely to be that player that can make the runs we're missing and cause problems in the box, the other exception being Brownhill if it's a must for the Wells deal to happen.

Don’t disagree, just a list of who I think might make a few quid in the summer.  Could possibly add Dasilva to that, but think his injury will mean another season here.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’ll tell him, shall I?

Let me crash you back down to earth RDK.

C35A2359-6FAC-4909-B885-B1B4980E633A.thumb.jpeg.f0fa2851d161cdb162c31af136456069.jpeg

And that was before I realised I’d forgotten not all of Webster’s £20m was profit.

Sorry!!!

😕🙁☹️

Wouldn’t the transfer profit for 19/20 be higher though, given you amortise the transfer fees over the life of the contract wouldn’t the transfer profit be c£15m higher but with amortisation increasing by c£4m? Still likely we would need to sell in the summer 

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25 minutes ago, Spike said:

Selling Eliasson would be something we would regret, that lad is a fantastic player, I could honestly see him going to another Championship top 6 club and getting promoted with them as a key player.

Out of contract at the end of next season though.  If he won't sign a new one, it would probably make sense to sell him in the summer, unfortunately.

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3 minutes ago, reddevil said:

Wouldn’t the transfer profit for 19/20 be higher though, given you amortise the transfer fees over the life of the contract wouldn’t the transfer profit be c£15m higher but with amortisation increasing by c£4m? Still likely we would need to sell in the summer 

Yeah, I think there’s something in that.  Someone made me think about it the other day, but I haven’t had chance to think about it more.  I will look back at previous years accounts to see how it all adds up.  Might ask @Coppello too.

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13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yeah, I think there’s something in that.  Someone made me think about it the other day, but I haven’t had chance to think about it more.  I will look back at previous years accounts to see how it all adds up.  Might ask @Coppello too.

Yeah, @reddevil is correct. Only an element of the player purchases from this summer would hit the P&L and therefore impact FFP. This would be the amortisation element of it and therefore we would have a little more headroom, particularly with Webster's sale being recognised in the 19/20 accounts. 

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1 hour ago, reddevil said:

Wouldn’t the transfer profit for 19/20 be higher though, given you amortise the transfer fees over the life of the contract wouldn’t the transfer profit be c£15m higher but with amortisation increasing by c£4m? Still likely we would need to sell in the summer 

Thanks, re-worked it, here’s a revised view.  Looks much healthier.  But won’t include agent fees, nor provision for future fees based on appearances, and other bonuses, etc.

17FCF346-2863-44BD-8564-7C20D5D118CD.thumb.jpeg.65b5c80730c3910976da51eb57097ed0.jpeg

the blue cell is the important one.  Not close to £39m!!!

I’ve changed the transfer profit accordingly.  I think the wage bill might be a bit higher too....but more to play with.  That’s good news.

@Coppello - not an accountant, so excuse the way I’ve shown it.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks, re-worked it, here’s a revised view.  Looks much healthier.  But won’t include agent fees, nor provision for future fees based on appearances, and other bonuses, etc.

17FCF346-2863-44BD-8564-7C20D5D118CD.thumb.jpeg.65b5c80730c3910976da51eb57097ed0.jpeg

the blue cell is the important one.  Not close to £39m!!!

I’ve changed the transfer profit accordingly.  I think the wage bill might be a bit higher too....but more to play with.  That’s good news.

@Coppello - not an accountant, so excuse the way I’ve shown it.  

 

It looks good and shows we have reasonably strong headroom. I wouldn't be surprised to see our wage bill increase significantly this year with Williams, Kalas and Palmer signed permanently and us covering Afobe's salary. Don't forget that any transfer fees that we do incur this January will only impact the P&L by the amortised amount and the salary etc so I wouldn't rule out the signing of Ivan Toney for a significant sum. 

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10 minutes ago, Coppello said:

It looks good and shows we have reasonably strong headroom. I wouldn't be surprised to see our wage bill increase significantly this year with Williams, Kalas and Palmer signed permanently and us covering Afobe's salary. Don't forget that any transfer fees that we do incur this January will only impact the P&L by the amortised amount and the salary etc so I wouldn't rule out the signing of Ivan Toney for a significant sum. 

Yep, agree re wages. Thanks.  Yes I did a calculation earlier on Toney of £9m on a 3 1/2 year deal on £15k per week.  It’s definitely manageable.

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I am in a minority (I know) that wonders whether we’d be in a much different position without him, and Maenpaa instead.  Mäenpää’s injury record may be a factor though, I appreciate that.

I'm with you on that, that's something about Bentley that makes me think he'll make a mistake. Maybe erratic or its because he seems to rush out more. Good stopper though. Maenpaa I can't recall doing anything wrong last season? Shame he got injured 

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Let's not forget, we our owned by Steve Lansdown and how did he make his money? In the financial sector of course. Not saying we can go around splashing 20 million on one player but if a player became available for 7/8/9/10 million then we have no better person than SL to somehow find the money in the budget for that player. 

I've seen ludicrous figures like us only having a million to spend, with the greatest respect to anyone, they ain't no Steve Lansdown, nor do they have all the information at their finger tips like he does. 

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27 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m happy to argue anything with anyone. But I won’t argue FFP with the ‘big two’!

What do you think about the price of Bread, I thinks it's to high

and why do guests over christmas bring so much food that We are still eating our way through it or do you think we are just pussy's

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16 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Let's not forget, we our owned by Steve Lansdown and how did he make his money? In the financial sector of course. Not saying we can go around splashing 20 million on one player but if a player became available for 7/8/9/10 million then we have no better person than SL to somehow find the money in the budget for that player. 

I've seen ludicrous figures like us only having a million to spend, with the greatest respect to anyone, they ain't no Steve Lansdown, nor do they have all the information at their finger tips like he does. 

That is true, but there are plenty think we’ve got £20-30m to spend because we sold Webster and Kelly. Some are oblivious that we lose £0.5m per week, or even that FFP exists, and SL can’t just buy his way to success.

I would be amazed if the software they use doesn’t allow them to pop in a few variables, like fee, signing on fee, contract length, wages, and see how the P&L is impacted over the next 5 years.

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