Little midfield can't help

[Davefevs]

@Harry

Here you go:

thought I’d give you Pato too.  For me, despite his goal, I thought he contributed to our poor shape.  If you consider that in a 4141, he is alongside Massengo his contribution (90 minutes versus Han-Noah’s 66), of only 23 passes shows issues imho.  Extrapolate 32 passes in 66 minutes, means he passed twice as much as Pato.  Don’t get me wrong although alongside a Massengo, he is given more license to get forward....just not stand up there alongside Fam!!!

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, 77 punk said:

is markus henriksen similar to marlon pack in the way he plays ?

Hope not!

[Harry]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Harry

Here you go:

thought I’d give you Pato too.  For me, despite his goal, I thought he contributed to our poor shape.  If you consider that in a 4141, he is alongside Massengo his contribution (90 minutes versus Han-Noah’s 66), of only 23 passes shows issues imho.  Extrapolate 32 passes in 66 minutes, means he passed twice as much as Pato.  Don’t get me wrong although alongside a Massengo, he is given more license to get forward....just not stand up there alongside Fam!!!

 

So I was right on Korey. Not much more than 50 passes. 
34 from his CM partner. 
Pack used to get more than that on his own. 
 

We need the midfield to start dictating the play. At the moment it’s terrible. 

[Red-Robbo]

5 hours ago, Cowshed said:

You did not answer the questions posed. 

If tackling and height is such a requisite for the championship how do Bristol City compare to the top three or previous teams that were promoted? The City of now certainly tackle more and win more duels than some of these lightweight teams.

Football is becoming less physical in terms of tackling by the decade and seasons. The championship is not particularly physical in that respect.

Football has become more mobile and technical. 

We saw it last night. Massengo virtually bulldozed off the ball by Jutkewicz. Nagy likewise by Bellingham.

In elite leagues I agree 100% with your comments, however one tier down you still get a bit of "might is right" physicality - and providing it doesn't involve flying feet, refs seem quite happy with it usually.

That doesn't mean you'll get very far with a team of hulking great cloggers.

But that isn't what @Robbored said.  He felt that a hard-tackling, slightly menacing midfield battler would have been an asset last night. So do I. Hopefully, Henriksen is that man.

[Odd socks]

Massengo was poor last night ,he was like a rabbit caught in the headlights ,he has talent ,but not physically good enough for the championship

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

That doesn't mean you'll get very far with a team of hulking great cloggers.

But that isn't what @Robbored said.  He felt that a hard-tackling, slightly menacing midfield battler would have been an asset last night. So do I. Hopefully, Henriksen is that man.

Sadly RR , Cowshed failed to grasp what I was saying and not for the first time either........
 

Oh for a Gerry Gow.............

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Harry said:

So I was right on Korey. Not much more than 50 passes. 
34 from his CM partner. 
Pack used to get more than that on his own. 
 

We need the midfield to start dictating the play. At the moment it’s terrible. 

In some / many games, yes.  Usually around 50-70 mark....but we played a style that everything had to go through him.  Pros and cons of that.

It must make you wonder what patterns they practice up at Failand?  They might as well set up to bang it long and play off the pieces.

21 minutes ago, Odd socks said:

Massengo was poor last night ,he was like a rabbit caught in the headlights ,he has talent ,but not physically good enough for the championship

I thought he was one of the few positives last night.

[Cowshed]

39 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

We saw it last night. Massengo virtually bulldozed off the ball by Jutkewicz. Nagy likewise by Bellingham.

In elite leagues I agree 100% with your comments, however one tier down you still get a bit of "might is right" physicality - and providing it doesn't involve flying feet, refs seem quite happy with it usually.

That doesn't mean you'll get very far with a team of hulking great cloggers.

But that isn't what @Robbored said.  He felt that a hard-tackling, slightly menacing midfield battler would have been an asset last night. So do I. Hopefully, Henriksen is that man.

Robboreds post states no one can deny that Massengo and Nagy are both currently too lightweight for the hurly burly of the Championship. And then again I’m referring to the physicality of the Championship and imo both Massengo and Nagy are too lightweight. I did ask what is it Bristol City are attempting to be and what does the football require, and the poster did not reply, or make a reference to last night.

The top four this season all have higher passing accuracies than Bristol City and have far higher % possession. These teams I would suggest are built on a clear approach and its requirements. 

Including a hard-tackling tall, slightly menacing battler with long legs in Bristol City's team does not help to improve the poor movement and passing Harry observes in his post and has been a season theme season long. That is a technical, tactical, psychological (who wants it?) as well as a physical deficiency.   

 

[Harry]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In some / many games, yes.  Usually around 50-70 mark....but we played a style that everything had to go through him.  Pros and cons of that.

It must make you wonder what patterns they practice up at Failand?  They might as well set up to bang it long and play off the pieces.

I thought he was one of the few positives last night.

When I used to play local football, we used to train and try to play short passing, possession. 
I later became manager and I instead used to put some focus in training to how we ‘actually’ played on a Saturday. Practise corner routines. Practise long balls and movement off of aerial challenges. Practise defending long balls. Practise aerial challenges etc. 
I saw no point in trying to get limited footballers to pass it 10 yards to each other in training, when as soon as they got the ball on a Saturday they’d lump it forward. 
Not sure what drills City are doing but we’d be best suited to training with 50 yarders and playing for the seconds. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Robboreds post states no one can deny that Massengo and Nagy are both currently too lightweight for the hurly burly of the Championship. And then again I’m referring to the physicality of the Championship and imo both Massengo and Nagy are too lightweight. I did ask what is it Bristol City are attempting to be and what does the football require, and poster did not reply, or make a reference to last night.

The top four this season all have higher passing accuracies than Bristol City and have far higher % possession. These teams I would suggest are built on a clear approach and its requirements. 

Including a hard-tackling tall, slightly menacing battler with long legs in Bristol City's team does not help to improve the poor movement and passing Harry observes in his post and has been a season theme season long. That is technical, tactical, psychological as well as a physical deficiency.   

Surely playing a central 3 would help too?

What do a variety of teams above us and who have gone up play- or have they played? Why- a central 3, in some form or another.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Depends on what type of football you are trying to play.  Man City style or Wimbledon???

I hear pundits saying Lee’s City are a team that likes to pass it.  I completely disagree.  To that point, you could argue we need a different midfield.

Unsure what you mean by this Dave?

Do you mean our midfield may not be up to the passing game or do you mean a different midfield for the less emphasis on possession we seem to have this season?

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Unsure what you mean by this Dave?

Do you mean our midfield may not be up to the passing game or do you mean a different midfield for the less emphasis on possession we seem to have this season?

I mean, we have the midfielders to play neat, short passing, but we don’t try to.

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

The top four this season all have higher passing accuracies than Bristol City and have far higher % possession. These teams I would suggest are built on a clear approach and its requirements. 

Including a hard-tackling tall, slightly menacing battler with long legs in Bristol City's team does not help to improve the poor movement and passing Harry observes in his post and has been a season theme season long. That is technical, tactical, psychological as well as a physical deficiency.   

Well we get dispossessed often precisely because of that lack of physicality. We saw it with our own eyes. Jutkewicz ploughing into Massengo looked like one of the big kids picking on the smallest in the school playground. Painful!

If you counter that pass accuracy, well-timed runs and general awareness are more important than physicality, then I will agree with you (and Harry).

But having one menacing sod you don't want to go up against would be nice. Most teams have one. Don't really think we have. 

 

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Surely playing a central 3 would help too?

What do a variety of teams above us and who have gone up play- or have they played? Why- a central 3, in some form or another.

I was really only replying to the proposition of tall ones = better. 

But surely playing a central 3 would help too? Yes. Teams above this season are and will put more than three in. It may be an anomaly but this season the top end of the division features teams who really keep the ball as intent, and will play 4-3-3 which appears to be anathema to Mr Johnson. 

[And Its Smith]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Thought Massengo was one of the positives last night.

Blimey Dave. You’ve got that badly wrong I’m afraid.  Stats don’t tell the full picture. He took far too long on the ball every time he got it but there’s no stat for that.  

[RedM]

A midfielder Ive seen several times have a great game is Barry Bannan. Not tall but totally runs the game from midfield, tough in the tackle and spreading the ball around. Very difficult to play against. To be clear I'm not suggesting getting him, just someone with those attributes. Yes I know we have Korey but he has been sucked further and further back to help the defence. HNM had a lot of the ball last night but looked reluctant to go forward too often. Ellisson finds defending difficult so I wasnt surprised Brum scored their third. 

Once Brum sussed us out it was far too easy, I could see where the gaps were sat in the stand.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Blimey Dave. You’ve got that badly wrong I’m afraid.  Stats don’t tell the full picture. He took far too long on the ball every time he got it but there’s no stat for that.  

in your opinion.

Thanks, I really appreciate your ability to discuss a point.  

It was posed earlier on that he always played a sideways or backwards pass last night.  My watching of the game told me different.  This stats site told me different.  And so did me re-watching the 90 minutes today (or 66 minutes in Massengo’s case).  I did fast forward some bits. 

You can introduce another angle to the discussion if you want, i.e. that he took too long.  If you want to debate that, feel free.  But when you do perhaps also ask yourself the question why he may have taken too long, the state of the game at that point, Birmingham’s set up, the positions of his teammates etc etc.  You may find that not everything is as black and white as you see it.  Cause and effect in a lot of cases.  Sometimes Han-Noah’s fault.  Was it “every time” as you suggest, or just your unconscious bias?

[Simon79]

If height is a factor in a total lack of movement & an understanding of creating an angle, then I totally agree. COYR 

[And Its Smith]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

in your opinion.

Thanks, I really appreciate your ability to discuss a point.  

It was posed earlier on that he always played a sideways or backwards pass last night.  My watching of the game told me different.  This stats site told me different.  And so did me re-watching the 90 minutes today (or 66 minutes in Massengo’s case).  I did fast forward some bits. 

You can introduce another angle to the discussion if you want, i.e. that he took too long.  If you want to debate that, feel free.  But when you do perhaps also ask yourself the question why he may have taken too long, the state of the game at that point, Birmingham’s set up, the positions of his teammates etc etc.  You may find that not everything is as black and white as you see it.  Cause and effect in a lot of cases.  Sometimes Han-Noah’s fault.  Was it “every time” as you suggest, or just your unconscious bias?

Clearly it’s my opinion.  Do I need to state ‘in my opinion’?  Especially to someone like yourself who will reply ‘correct’ to people. 

Why would I be bias against a player I love?  He had the ball, had options and held onto it, uncertain as to what to do. Clear as day. To say he was a positive is baffling.  I love Massengo but can call out a bad game when I see one 

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

in your opinion.

Thanks, I really appreciate your ability to discuss a point.  

It was posed earlier on that he always played a sideways or backwards pass last night.  My watching of the game told me different.  This stats site told me different.  And so did me re-watching the 90 minutes today (or 66 minutes in Massengo’s case).  I did fast forward some bits. 

You can introduce another angle to the discussion if you want, i.e. that he took too long.  If you want to debate that, feel free.  But when you do perhaps also ask yourself the question why he may have taken too long, the state of the game at that point, Birmingham’s set up, the positions of his teammates etc etc.  You may find that not everything is as black and white as you see it.  Cause and effect in a lot of cases.  Sometimes Han-Noah’s fault.  Was it “every time” as you suggest, or just your unconscious bias?

I also rewatched today, as I do like to analyse with the ‘passion’ removed. 
On the second watching, I actually thought HNM was better than I first thought last night. But I also confirmed my initial view that the play was often waaaay too slow. 
There were countless times that either HNM or KS had the ball centrally and could’ve played a quick and decisive ball out to the wings. They pondered too long and the opportunity was gone. This then resulted in 2-3 extra touches to find the next option. 
Whether it’s a confidence thing I don’t know. But these players should be capable of hitting a 20 yard pass along the ground at pace. They too often refused that option. The result was slow, ponderous, indecisive, and ultimately ended with a pass back to a CB to launch it forward 60 yards! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

54 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I mean, we have the midfielders to play neat, short passing, but we don’t try to.

Ah with you now  

Yeah certainly agree! We wouldn't dominate the ball vs all sides home and away but our possession, control and all round entertainment? Think we have the players, the midfielders to do quite a bit better.

[Mr Popodopolous]

59 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Well we get dispossessed often precisely because of that lack of physicality. We saw it with our own eyes. Jutkewicz ploughing into Massengo looked like one of the big kids picking on the smallest in the school playground. Painful!

If you counter that pass accuracy, well-timed runs and general awareness are more important than physicality, then I will agree with you (and Harry).

But having one menacing sod you don't want to go up against would be nice. Most teams have one. Don't really think we have. 

 

Brentford physically aren't huge necessarily. Neither are Fulham, in midfield. I really think there's a big issue with both system and mindset.

@Top Robin easier to cover ground in a 3 than a 2!

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

I also rewatched today, as I do like to analyse with the ‘passion’ removed. 
On the second watching, I actually thought HNM was better than I first thought last night. But I also confirmed my initial view that the play was often waaaay too slow. 
There were countless times that either HNM or KS had the ball centrally and could’ve played a quick and decisive ball out to the wings. They pondered too long and the opportunity was gone. This then resulted in 2-3 extra touches to find the next option. 
Whether it’s a confidence thing I don’t know. But these players should be capable of hitting a 20 yard pass along the ground at pace. They too often refused that option. The result was slow, ponderous, indecisive, and ultimately ended with a pass back to a CB to launch it forward 60 yards! 

I agree, he wasn’t perfect, by any stretch, but when I look at it in the context of others last night, I thought he was better than a lot of them.  I thought there were some poor individual performances last night, both with and without the ball.  I thought he worked hard off the ball too, trying to press their left sided CB and LB, and wasn’t particularly well supported by Fam or Nic in the opening half hour in doing so.  I really think he wanted Pato to come back and play more alongside him, so he could pop balls off quicker.  But Pato looked like he wanted to play alongside Fam.

7 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Clearly it’s my opinion.  Do I need to state ‘in my opinion’?  Especially to someone like yourself who will reply ‘correct’ to people. 

Why would I be bias against a player I love?  He had the ball, had options and held onto it, uncertain as to what to do. Clear as day. To say he was a positive is baffling.  I love Massengo but can call out a bad game when I see one 

It comes across as massively arrogant if you state “you’ve got it badly wrong I’m afraid”.  It’s just a bit of forum politeness, in my opinion.

[And Its Smith]

19 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I agree, he wasn’t perfect, by any stretch, but when I look at it in the context of others last night, I thought he was better than a lot of them.  I thought there were some poor individual performances last night, both with and without the ball.  I thought he worked hard off the ball too, trying to press their left sided CB and LB, and wasn’t particularly well supported by Fam or Nic in the opening half hour in doing so.  I really think he wanted Pato to come back and play more alongside him, so he could pop balls off quicker.  But Pato looked like he wanted to play alongside Fam.

It comes across as massively arrogant if you state “you’ve got it badly wrong I’m afraid”.  It’s just a bit of forum politeness, in my opinion.

Similar to replying ‘correct’ to someone in the middle of a debate as if you are the forum teacher, you might say 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Top Robin said:

Smith, Massengo, Paterson, Elliason are all under 6ft and a couple well under.

Height must be important in midfield obviously for heading but also for tackling with longer legs and covering more ground.

Some short midfielders are superb but I think you need a couple of tall ones in there as well.

Just a thought.

Gerry Gow, Bobby Kellard wouldnt want to run into them but know what you are saying, although playing out from the back seems to be fav now. Do seem to be out muscled by the "bigger" teams though, we seem to be lightweight in the middle but quick

[Bazooka Joe]

21 hours ago, David Brent said:

How much does Massengo weigh then?

Better ask Weimann.

[Cowshed]

17 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Well we get dispossessed often precisely because of that lack of physicality. We saw it with our own eyes. Jutkewicz ploughing into Massengo looked like one of the big kids picking on the smallest in the school playground. Painful!

If you counter that pass accuracy, well-timed runs and general awareness are more important than physicality, then I will agree with you (and Harry).

But having one menacing sod you don't want to go up against would be nice. Most teams have one. Don't really think we have. 

 

Bristol City did not get dispossessed frequently by tackles Birmingham made nine. Across the season the number of tackles made v Bristol City does not indicate the team loses the ball often by tackling. 

Physicality can be mobility and distance covered. I do use that point (counter). An opinion can be City have a difficulty with movement that leads to players having too many touches (Massengo?), slow play, knocking it long and City's loss of possession.   

I would question if most teams have these menacing enforcers .. They are gone. Its 2020.

A poster has made a point he has made before Brentford and Fulham are not big teams and mentioned system and mindset. I agree wholly. I mention intent - What is it you want? What is you want to be? Brentford and Fulham play football underlined by clear principles, so do Leeds and WBA. I really do not think Bristol City have that and in regards to possession, passing, movement the opening posters tall, long legs won't change it.

[Galway Red]

Johnson & Pearson seem to do OK for PNE

[Red-Robbo]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Bristol City did not get dispossessed frequently by tackles Birmingham made nine. Across the season the number of tackles made v Bristol City does not indicate the team loses the ball often by tackling. 

Physicality can be mobility and distance covered. I do use that point (counter). An opinion can be City have a difficulty with movement that leads to players having too many touches (Massengo?), slow play, knocking it long and City's loss of possession.   

I would question if most teams have these menacing enforcers .. They are gone. Its 2020.

A poster has made a point he has made before Brentford and Fulham are not big teams and mentioned system and mindset. I agree wholly. I mention intent - What is it you want? What is you want to be? Brentford and Fulham play football underlined by clear principles, so do Leeds and WBA. I really do not think Bristol City have that and in regards to possession, passing, movement the opening posters tall, long legs won't change it.

Brentford have Pontus Jansson who is bloody huge, and do you really think Leeds and West Brom have no enforcers?

Birmingham may have made only 9 tackles according to whatever stats model you use (and remember the old adage, there are lies, damned lies and statistics) however if you watched the game you'd realise that the dispossession that ensued was usually in our half and led to dangerous breaks. 

I'm really not denying that pass accuracy and movement off the ball is more important to the modern game - and to City.

I do know obvious deficiencies when they stare me in the face.

Anyway, rather than try to shoot down everyone else's posts, maybe you can tell us why - in your view - City flopped against a big, physical, but not particularly highly-skilled Brum side?  We were on a winning streak, morale would be high. 

We've seen City try to - unsuccessfully - play possession football many times and it results in the ultra-slow build-up you note (and we can all see).

How would you address this?  We have nimble players. We have creative players. 

And who in midfield do you see stop the inevitable breaks that occur in attacking play?  Because by the time it gets to our last man - the poor sod, who inevitably gets blamed by most ,it's usually too late.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Brentford have Pontus Jansson who is bloody huge, and do you really think Leeds and West Brom have no enforcers?

Birmingham may have made only 9 tackles according to whatever stats model you use (and remember the old adage, there are lies, damned lies and statistics) however if you watched the game you'd realise that the dispossession that ensued was usually in our half and led to dangerous breaks. 

I'm really not denying that pass accuracy and movement off the ball is more important to the modern game - and to City.

I do know obvious deficiencies when they stare me in the face.

Anyway, rather than try to shoot down everyone else's posts, maybe you can tell us why - in your view - City flopped against a big, physical, but not particularly highly-skilled Brum side?  We were on a winning streak, morale would be high. 

We've seen City try to - unsuccessfully - play possession football many times and it results in the ultra-slow build-up you note (and we can all see).

How would you address this?  We have nimble players. We have creative players. 

And who in midfield do you see stop the inevitable breaks that occur in attacking play?  Because by the time it gets to our last man - the poor sod, who inevitably gets blamed by most ,it's usually too late.

Livermore is as close as you get in this day and age.  Phillips is more about speed, but vital to Leeds.