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I think the balance between Antoine today is “did he play well” vs “was he a threat”

In the first, my answer is undoubtedly yes. He was available, moved the ball well and didn’t look out of place. In the latter, my answer is no - i wasn’t confident at any case he’d score. It’ll come, he’s not there yet.

So, what today did was reinforce my view. Antoine is good, and his ceiling is higher than Fam/Nakhi etc. But he’s not there yet, and if we want development we may need to wait..

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17 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the balance between Antoine today is “did he play well” vs “was he a threat”

In the first, my answer is undoubtedly yes. He was available, moved the ball well and didn’t look out of place. In the latter, my answer is no - i wasn’t confident at any case he’d score. It’ll come, he’s not there yet.

So, what today did was reinforce my view. Antoine is good, and his ceiling is higher than Fam/Nakhi etc. But he’s not there yet, and if we want development we may need to wait..

There were a couple of instances very early in the game when he almost got into shooting positions, but wasn’t quite sharp enough.

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I mentioned on the match day post, and here perhaps it is here where it should go. Cast our minds back few years back when he was on loan at Newport and they had that cup run disposing of two prem sides. 
AS was the star of the show and the pundits  on live TV rightly raved about him. 
He was as I recall playing in a deeper wide role and he would walk and skip past premier league defenders as if they were not there. Am I right in that?  Yet I have not seen him reproduce that form  since as he has a different role. 

it’s when he gets motoring at his best ?

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31 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the balance between Antoine today is “did he play well” vs “was he a threat”

In the first, my answer is undoubtedly yes. He was available, moved the ball well and didn’t look out of place. In the latter, my answer is no - i wasn’t confident at any case he’d score. It’ll come, he’s not there yet.

So, what today did was reinforce my view. Antoine is good, and his ceiling is higher than Fam/Nakhi etc. But he’s not there yet, and if we want development we may need to wait..

He was good today, strength and power and workrate, he did suffer from the same thing as a few others today. Touch was off. Heavy touch when dribbling or taking a heavy touch on controlling the ball. Not a lot , but enough to lose the ball or not be able to get a shot in. Nice to see him causing problems, if anything I'd say more effective than Wells has been of late.

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There were a couple of instances very early in the game when he almost got into shooting positions, but wasn’t quite sharp enough.

Thin line between unlucky and not sharp enough. The more he plays, the quicker his choices and reactions will become though. 

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19 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

He was good today, strength and power and workrate, he did suffer from the same thing as a few others today. Touch was off. Heavy touch when dribbling or taking a heavy touch on controlling the ball. Not a lot , but enough to lose the ball or not be able to get a shot in. Nice to see him causing problems, if anything I'd say more effective than Wells has been of late.

Thin line between unlucky and not sharp enough. The more he plays, the quicker his choices and reactions will become though. 

Yep.

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4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Shaded it for my motm today, but against a generally low bar.

The pluses today for me were Vyner, Kalas, Brunt and Semenyo.  None of them outstanding, just better than their teammates and Semenyo shaded it. 7/10 was my highest mark.

Partnerships.  Good point.  Yes, he looks more confident when drifting into the wide channels.  Not quite got the combination of power, acceleration and pace to jink away from his marker in tight spaces centrally, but is good in the channels.  Linked well with Dasilva.  Buy didn’t link that well with Martin...and that’s an important partnership to foster isn’t it?  That might come with more minutes.

Decent contribution today.

Was the first half challenge a penalty (with Cabango), my screen buffered on the replay?

Interesting re Brunt. I thought he played in the spaces that Moore would usually bring the ball out into, and we looked a worse and deeper unit as a result, particularly in the first half. Not that Brunt had a bad performance, it just annoyed me having a player so deep collecting the ball from Moore when he is perfectly capable of moving into the space with the ball himself.

 

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13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Shaded it for my motm today, but against a generally low bar.

The pluses today for me were Vyner, Kalas, Brunt and Semenyo.  None of them outstanding, just better than their teammates and Semenyo shaded it. 7/10 was my highest mark.

Partnerships.  Good point.  Yes, he looks more confident when drifting into the wide channels.  Not quite got the combination of power, acceleration and pace to jink away from his marker in tight spaces centrally, but is good in the channels.  Linked well with Dasilva.  Buy didn’t link that well with Martin...and that’s an important partnership to foster isn’t it?  That might come with more minutes.

Decent contribution today.

Was the first half challenge a penalty (with Cabango), my screen buffered on the replay?

It's worth persisting with, because what's the alternative? More crap general play from Nahki Wells? Diedhiou and Martin? I said in the poll thread about our best combinations that Martin and Semenyo would LOOK the best. "If you're going to lose, lose young." In this case, play the younger player if there's not much drop off.

I always like how Fam treats Antoine. He went to him after that wild 25 yard shot to give him encouragement, always does that.

I think like a lot of the pen decisions, you've seen them given, but not for me. Player reactions are always key for me, he didn't seem that angry about it!

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8 hours ago, marcofisher said:

Interesting re Brunt. I thought he played in the spaces that Moore would usually bring the ball out into, and we looked a worse and deeper unit as a result, particularly in the first half. Not that Brunt had a bad performance, it just annoyed me having a player so deep collecting the ball from Moore when he is perfectly capable of moving into the space with the ball himself.

 

May be that with Brunt so close to back three, it made us a bit safer in defence?

Yet by doing so, again we are not passing out with enough pace to break the opposition hold on midfield. 

I could ramble on about how we can improve our hold on games and how we could make more clear cut goal chances but put simply. We are playing too slowly all over the pitch.

One example to confirm this. How many times did our wing backs make an attempt to go past their marker? Once or twice, so don't blink during a game or you'll miss it!

Edited by cidered abroad
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9 hours ago, marcofisher said:

Interesting re Brunt. I thought he played in the spaces that Moore would usually bring the ball out into, and we looked a worse and deeper unit as a result, particularly in the first half. Not that Brunt had a bad performance, it just annoyed me having a player so deep collecting the ball from Moore when he is perfectly capable of moving into the space with the ball himself.

 

I read this and agreed to start with, TM didn't seem to try and come out with the ball nearly as much. I had a look at heat maps on Whoscored to see what difference there was and I think there's more (🙄) to it.  With TM moved to the left side, somewhere he never looks as comfortable, and JD trying to push on, it just wasn't the game for it. Brunt ended up with nearly twice as many touches but didn't look as though he played any deeper than Bakinson had. 

468368257_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_38_31.png.5ced9ca5df8cf1abb394596124987425.png1488258900_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_35_26.png.0bebab77354f27e13db0b179b03b29a9.png

Bakinson against Sheff Wed on the left, and Brunt's heat map from yesterday on the right. I think with DaSilva pushing their WB back, Moore felt the need to give cover in the LB area. He did look a bit more careful, but that could be something to do with him costing the goal the other night, I did notice a coupe of earlier hoofs when before he may have risked a touch. 

427664202_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_58_36.png.8b1f19fd06155c936f9e28d98cc5d3a0.png1428990912_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_58_24.png.9d7f6caca2e945c87cc8e333b06d8afe.png

Taylor Moore on the left and Jay Dasilva on the right. I'm actually surprised how far forward JD played, pretty good for your WB I think. Sessignon was similar on the other side.

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12 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

 

427664202_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_58_36.png.8b1f19fd06155c936f9e28d98cc5d3a0.png1428990912_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_58_24.png.9d7f6caca2e945c87cc8e333b06d8afe.png

Taylor Moore on the left and Jay Dasilva on the right. I'm actually surprised how far forward JD played, pretty good for your WB I think. Sessignon was similar on the other side.

So that's my impression of how the Moore/Dasilva dynamic was. Although Dasilva was advanced, how much did he pass forwards or attempt to create anything? There was one really good through ball to set up the Semenyo run but was there much else?

I think they let the full backs get up there, and were like, well do something with it, and we didn't do much? One cross from Sessegnon and one through ball from Dasilva that were noticeable to me.

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17 minutes ago, Prinny said:

So that's my impression of how the Moore/Dasilva dynamic was. Although Dasilva was advanced, how much did he pass forwards or attempt to create anything? There was one really good through ball to set up the Semenyo run but was there much else?

I think they let the full backs get up there, and were like, well do something with it, and we didn't do much? One cross from Sessegnon and one through ball from Dasilva that were noticeable to me.

First game back, I think there was some rustiness, with both WB's TBF. I thought there were signs of the JD of old, a few triangles and link ups. Long way from perfect, but Swansea are decent and matching us up I think meant there was less pace. Plus Weimann and Paterson had off days and it didn't feel like there were as many options. I'm a big fan of JD going forward, but I think he looked slightly under cooked, better to come I'm sure.

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5 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

First game back, I think there was some rustiness, with both WB's TBF. I thought there were signs of the JD of old, a few triangles and link ups. Long way from perfect, but Swansea are decent and matching us up I think meant there was less pace. Plus Weimann and Paterson had off days and it didn't feel like there were as many options. I'm a big fan of JD going forward, but I think he looked slightly under cooked, better to come I'm sure.

Yeah I hope it's under cooked, he looked a bit off yesterday but obv have to factor in opposition and the form of the  players around him agreed.

But I dunno, expected Dasilva to seize the position this year and just keep it for a while and Tommy Rowe, (despite how well he's done) getting ahead of him at all, sort of concerns me. 

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14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Defo seen em given.

tangle of legs, Semenyo advancing....good case?

Roberts had slipped and was falling, in process on the ground he slightly lifted his right leg and caught AS who then fell, defo penalty. Roberts then flailed his left leg in attempt to convince his leg went up after the trip. See BCFC.UK highlights.

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/news/highlights-bristol-city-1-1-swansea-city/

 

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14 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Yeah I hope it's under cooked, he looked a bit off yesterday but obv have to factor in opposition and the form of the  players around him agreed.

But I dunno, expected Dasilva to seize the position this year and just keep it for a while and Tommy Rowe, (despite how well he's done) getting ahead of him at all, sort of concerns me. 

I think most did. Injury, short pre-season, Holden juggling options on the bench, all adds up to his first start of the season not being as good as we all hoped. Not bad, but not the JD we love and expected. There will be rotation obviously, and Rowe has done well, but Dasilva needs a run to get up to speed IMO. Tough run of games to do it in mind.

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1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

I read this and agreed to start with, TM didn't seem to try and come out with the ball nearly as much. I had a look at heat maps on Whoscored to see what difference there was and I think there's more (🙄) to it.  With TM moved to the left side, somewhere he never looks as comfortable, and JD trying to push on, it just wasn't the game for it. Brunt ended up with nearly twice as many touches but didn't look as though he played any deeper than Bakinson had. 

468368257_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_38_31.png.5ced9ca5df8cf1abb394596124987425.png1488258900_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_35_26.png.0bebab77354f27e13db0b179b03b29a9.png

Bakinson against Sheff Wed on the left, and Brunt's heat map from yesterday on the right. I think with DaSilva pushing their WB back, Moore felt the need to give cover in the LB area. He did look a bit more careful, but that could be something to do with him costing the goal the other night, I did notice a coupe of earlier hoofs when before he may have risked a touch. 

427664202_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_58_36.png.8b1f19fd06155c936f9e28d98cc5d3a0.png1428990912_Screenshot2020-10-25at08_58_24.png.9d7f6caca2e945c87cc8e333b06d8afe.png

Taylor Moore on the left and Jay Dasilva on the right. I'm actually surprised how far forward JD played, pretty good for your WB I think. Sessignon was similar on the other side.

All that first map is showing is that Brunt was holding the ball for much longer in those areas whereas Bakinson released quickly to start attacks. It’s no wonder Swansea had us well pegged back with those heat maps when Brunt was holding so much of the ball in front of our defence which would have been of no threat to the Swans.

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Funny how we all watch it slightly different.  I thought Brunt did a really good job as the pivot in CM.  He did what I expected him to do - got the ball, moved the ball, moved us up the pitch.

2 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

May be that with Brunt so close to back three, it made us a bit safer in defence?

Yet by doing so, again we are not passing out with enough pace to break the opposition hold on midfield. 

I could ramble on about how we can improve our hold on games and how we could make more clear cut goal chances but put simply. We are playing too slowly all over the pitch.

One example to confirm this. How many times did our wing backs make an attempt to go past their marker? Once or twice, so don't blink during a game or you'll miss it!

Here’s the average position each player passed from.

596801C5-59F6-4F32-B707-ABDE1449A7A3.thumb.jpeg.815e0cb9e12ca1be8b2af3f4f6e0fe2b.jpeg

Other than Kalas, this is the highest positions we’ve had from our defenders and CM this season.  I thought after the opening 15 minutes once Vyner got his head up and started passing inside to Brunt that we got to the halfway line fairly easily.

But Swansea played a defensive CM3 yesterday rather than a two and a Ayew / Gyokeres as a no10, so they played to stifle us.  Boro did the same and Weimann and Paterson struggled to find space.

Here’s Brunt’s pass map.

4C50CBB9-A4DC-40B8-AE5B-D456E6DE90E8.thumb.jpeg.69aea0be3db8f1b19237bc4dc28de419.jpeg

I’ve not cropped it because I wanted to show the volume of passes (78)....that’s a very high number.

55 minutes ago, Prinny said:

So that's my impression of how the Moore/Dasilva dynamic was. Although Dasilva was advanced, how much did he pass forwards or attempt to create anything? There was one really good through ball to set up the Semenyo run but was there much else?

I think they let the full backs get up there, and were like, well do something with it, and we didn't do much? One cross from Sessegnon and one through ball from Dasilva that were noticeable to me.

0A3714AC-C95C-4091-B3A7-C99DA7DDA87F.thumb.jpeg.0ff2c069130ecf960b91af334b6e6b39.jpeg
 

I think Dasilva could’ve been a bit more adventurous second half and tried to go past Roberts, but first half his space was taken by Semenyo who played in Jay’s channel, and they linked quite well.

 

 

For info Swansea recorded their lowest pass total and percentage of the season - 319 / 74% success.  Perhaps we did something right yesterday?  

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6 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

All that first map is showing is that Brunt was holding the ball for much longer in those areas whereas Bakinson released quickly to start attacks. It’s no wonder Swansea had us well pegged back with those heat maps when Brunt was holding so much of the ball in front of our defence which would have been of no threat to the Swans.

The maps put up by @1960maaando not show time spent on the ball.  The reason for the bright colours is sheer volume of touches he had / passes made.  It shows get gets on the ball more, or at least did yesterday.

You maybe right that he wasn’t distributing as quick, but the maps don’t tell you that.

Just now, soultrader said:

Maybe thats why ref didn't issue a second yellow?

I think so

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The maps put up by @1960maaando not show time spent on the ball.  The reason for the bright colours is sheer volume of touches he had / passes made.  It shows get gets on the ball more, or at least did yesterday.

You maybe right that he wasn’t distributing as quick, but the maps don’t tell you that.

I think so

It’s certainly the impression I had from watching yesterday, does he need to get on the ball as much if we have a player like Moore who is capable of launching attacks from deep? Seems they both want to operate in the same areas for me. 
 

Bakinson seemed happier to break up plays and distribute the ball forwards to a more creative player rather than trying to dictate from deep, which I felt worked better with Moore behind who could do that if needed.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For info Swansea recorded their lowest pass total and percentage of the season - 319 / 74% success.  Perhaps we did something right yesterday?  

We definitely did well in stopping them playing or creating too much except from our own mistakes.

Definitely felt that we were more on the "tried not to lose" side yesterday, rather than "trying to win".

How were we our passing numbers comparatively to the rest of the season "amount"  wise?  Is there a "time to pass" stat? I.E, an average of how long players/team spent on the ball before passing it/giving it away.

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1 minute ago, Prinny said:

We definitely did well in stopping them playing or creating too much except from our own mistakes.

Definitely felt that we were more on the "tried not to lose" side yesterday, rather than "trying to win".

Yet City finished the game with four strikers on the pitch and that fact suggests that City were trying to win it.

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14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

There were a couple of instances very early in the game when he almost got into shooting positions, but wasn’t quite sharp enough.

I think he will come good,Playing alongside Martin will help his game no end and playing consistently that sharpness will come especially seeing that moment to snap a shot in and getting that one touch to create that chance. I still believe he would be better in a front three. Martin and wells still the better pairing but I think seymenyo puts in a better shift than wells overall.

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3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Yet City finished the game with four strikers on the pitch and that fact suggests that City were trying to win it.

Certainly at that point of the game we were but we were also trying to equalise and then ran out of substitutes.

I'm going to say that the 60-75 minutes of trying to keep it tight supersedes the maybe 20-30 minutes of more attacking intent as a more accurate way of interpreting our overall game plan yesterday rather than counting the strikers on the pitch at the final whistle.

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50 minutes ago, Prinny said:

We definitely did well in stopping them playing or creating too much except from our own mistakes.

Definitely felt that we were more on the "tried not to lose" side yesterday, rather than "trying to win".

Yet City finished the game with four strikers on the pitch and that fact suggests that City were trying to win it.

Like all young strikers what Semenyo needs is a couple of goals. That would boost his confidence immensely.

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1 hour ago, marcofisher said:

It’s certainly the impression I had from watching yesterday, does he need to get on the ball as much if we have a player like Moore who is capable of launching attacks from deep? Seems they both want to operate in the same areas for me. 
 

Bakinson seemed happier to break up plays and distribute the ball forwards to a more creative player rather than trying to dictate from deep, which I felt worked better with Moore behind who could do that if needed.

I think Bakinson is more dynamic in possession, he's happier to carry the ball forward, where as Brunt (about 60 years older 🤣 ) prefers to keep the ball moving. That's why he had getting on for double the touches TB has had, give and return where TB bursts through lines or plays forward. At least that's how I see it.

I think potentially there is a partnership there. With both Weimann and Pato underperforming , supposing we stick with the same back 3, I'd swap AW for TB. Makes the MF a little stronger IMO.

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1 hour ago, Prinny said:

We definitely did well in stopping them playing or creating too much except from our own mistakes.

Definitely felt that we were more on the "tried not to lose" side yesterday, rather than "trying to win".

How were we our passing numbers comparatively to the rest of the season "amount"  wise?  Is there a "time to pass" stat? I.E, an average of how long players/team spent on the ball before passing it/giving it away.

643EB248-3593-48FB-BC11-60BA0234268D.thumb.jpeg.3f435f117509b63ef5e3279e9b70b38f.jpeg

467 passes against an average (inc of Swansea) of 406.  Percentage successful up from 79% to 83%.  I genuinely don’t think we passed for passing sake yesterday, I think we probed to find openings...which we found hard against their CM3 of Smith, Grimes and Fulton.

9785E66B-366E-4A5E-B5F8-50FB5577CD02.thumb.jpeg.466c8cd172271ba23683a95f6acfde6d.jpeg

PPDA - Passes Allowed (by opposition) per Defensive Action (in the attacking 60% of the pitch, so just inside your own half and all of their half)

As you can see from City and Opponent averages are just over 11.

Yesterday, we allowed Swansea just 6 passes before we challenged, fouled or intercepted.  That’s our best of the season.

They allowed us 10 passes....which backs up them sitting their CM3 in front of their back 5 (CB3 2WB).

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