Han-Noah Massengo - Some Stats.

[MJP3]

My Standard Disclaimer.

 

I recently posted similar for Andi Weimann, and foolishly though words along the lines of "May be of Interest to some." would be enough of an explanation.

So ...

For those interested in stats, it may be worth having a look. For those not, it won't.

Thus, if you just want to rant about a Player being Crap, a Donkey, a Crap Donkey etc., please join/start another thread or preferably don't bother.

No. - Stats Don't tell you everything.

Yes. - They can be misleading.

No. - They might not be 100% accurate.

Think I've got it covered this time. 

For those still here, I hope you enjoy and find it...er ..interesting.

 

https://eflanalysis.com/analysis/han-noah-massengo-2021-22-bristol-city-stats

[Gazred]

Was looking at that earlier. I think it's fair representation of what we've seen from him so far this season. He's a hard working, tidy player who can effect games. Looked a little lost in spells in the recent poor team performances but still put in a half decent shift where others didn't.

The heat map alone is quite impressive.

[ExiledAjax]

24 minutes ago, MJP3 said:

My Standard Disclaimer.

 

I recently posted similar for Andi Weimann, and foolishly though words along the lines of "May be of Interest to some." would be enough of an explanation.

So ...

For those interested in stats, it may be worth having a look. For those not, it won't.

Thus, if you just want to rant about a Player being Crap, a Donkey, a Crap Donkey etc., please join/start another thread or preferably don't bother.

No. - Stats Don't tell you everything.

Yes. - They can be misleading.

No. - They might not be 100% accurate.

Think I've got it covered this time. 

For those still here, I hope you enjoy and find it...er ..interesting.

 

https://eflanalysis.com/analysis/han-noah-massengo-2021-22-bristol-city-stats

Good stuff.

Have you broken down his running and  passing stats by game period?

My hypothesis is that HNM's issues and weaknesses are that he tries to play the entire game at the same pace. He hasn't yet learned to adjust his own tempo and pacing to that of the game, or how to use an adjustment in pace and tempo to help his team control the game. As a result he is sometimes very useful and a great attribute to the team, but at other times his fast, direct style can in fact be detrimental. 

To test that theory I'd be interested in seeing if a) it's true - does he vary how/where he runs, or how long or short his passing is, or the directions he chooses, and b) if he does vary it then do those variations match with how the rest of the team plays.

Just a suggestion on how you may be able to develop your good work and use the numbers to come to a deeper conclusion.

[Gazred]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

My hypothesis is that HNM's issues and weaknesses are that he tries to play the entire game at the same pace. He hasn't yet learned to adjust his own tempo and pacing to that of the game, or how to use an adjustment in pace and tempo to help his team control the game. As a result he is sometimes very useful and a great attribute to the team, but at other times his fast, direct style can in fact be detrimental. 

I think that is spot on. Sometimes i think he plays at only 100mph because he can. Rarely do you see him tiring late into the game but yeh, i think that's an area to improve on that would serve him well.

[Rob k]

I think that shows what i currently think about Massengo via my own eyes

A trier and a willing runner who does not yet have an end product. I think I’m in the small minority who doesn’t believe we have this asset that we could currently sell for 10m plus. I’m not saying he won’t be worth that one day but he would need to add to his game for me.

[Offside]

That heat map shows how much ground he covers. His work rate is excellent, most noticeably when he tracks back. If only all our players worked so hard to win the ball, or at least make it difficult for the opponent.

I also note the reference to his passes carrying a “high threat”.  He has been more creative at times this season, like his drive into the box at QPR for Martin’s goal and his pass that led to Weimann’s winner v Barnsley. 

[grifty]

43 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I think that shows what i currently think about Massengo via my own eyes

A trier and a willing runner who does not yet have an end product. I think I’m in the small minority who doesn’t believe we have this asset that we could currently sell for 10m plus. I’m not saying he won’t be worth that one day but he would need to add to his game for me.

I think I’m starting to learn towards your viewpoint too. Whether that’s because his ability and performances have been brought down to the same level as others I’m not sure.

[ralphindevon]

I feel for a few of our younger players at the moment, it can’t be easy playing in the current side, especially the last few games.

I know you could probably say it about most players but I’d love to see him play in a good well organised team, I’m sure we’d see him flourish and improve.

[Red_Alligator]

Thanks MJP3, always interesting to look at player stats. 

Regarding work rate, back in the day, I used to judge that on how dirty their kit (particularly shorts - they were white then) was after 90 mins. The occasional appearance of blood was also deemed a sign of a job well done. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, MJP3 said:

My Standard Disclaimer.

 

I recently posted similar for Andi Weimann, and foolishly though words along the lines of "May be of Interest to some." would be enough of an explanation.

So ...

For those interested in stats, it may be worth having a look. For those not, it won't.

Thus, if you just want to rant about a Player being Crap, a Donkey, a Crap Donkey etc., please join/start another thread or preferably don't bother.

No. - Stats Don't tell you everything.

Yes. - They can be misleading.

No. - They might not be 100% accurate.

Think I've got it covered this time. 

For those still here, I hope you enjoy and find it...er ..interesting.

 

https://eflanalysis.com/analysis/han-noah-massengo-2021-22-bristol-city-stats

Is this your work….or you just sharing a link?

Is goals per 90 - 63rd centile correct…..or is that because the 63% of your data cut contains players with no goals?  It jumped out at me!!!

43 minutes ago, Rob k said:

I think that shows what i currently think about Massengo via my own eyes

A trier and a willing runner who does not yet have an end product. I think I’m in the small minority who doesn’t believe we have this asset that we could currently sell for 10m plus. I’m not saying he won’t be worth that one day but he would need to add to his game for me.

He’s had some good games this season, and a couple of poor ones too.  I actually like him in that inverted RM role, and interestingly in his games back in France he quite often played as the left point of the diamond, suggesting he is still learning a bit how to play centrally with the full width of the pitch to cover.  Are we seeing efficient intensity with only one half of the pitch to worry about?

Geverally, his attacking output is improving.  Getting shots off, 4 hockey assists, crosses etc.  None have yet registered a 1 in the goals / assist column, but he will before long.

If we were to get £10m it’s because it’s hugely potential based.  I don’t think we would get that, and I hope we don’t sell him either. £2.8m over 4 years that might turn into 6 or 8 years is worth balancing out in terms of replacing him.

[spudski]

From my observations HNM is Pro active offensively and reactive defensively.

I think he reads the game better when being offensive.

His willingness to run, block, get into position looks most impressive, but often it's because he hasn't read the pass, the move or tracked his runner. He does track his runner...after that runner has made his move. He doesn't read it...hence the energy tracking back or having to correct his mis timing.

He's not defensively minded imo, and more effective as a high energy offensive midfielder.

His physical fitness and energy and massive willingness to track, mark, defend often overcomes this weakness, but as can be seen in his last game, his late awareness led to a goal.

Prefer him in an offensive position personally. Love his attitude.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

From my observations HNM is Pro active offensively and reactive defensively.

I think he reads the game better when being offensive.

His willingness to run, block, get into position looks most impressive, but often it's because he hasn't read the pass, the move or tracked his runner. He does track his runner...after that runner has made his move. He doesn't read it...hence the energy tracking back or having to correct his mis timing.

He's not defensively minded imo, and more effective as a high energy offensive midfielder.

His physical fitness and energy and massive willingness to track, mark, defend often overcomes this weakness, but as can be seen in his last game, his late awareness led to a goal.

Prefer him in an offensive position personally. Love his attitude.

Yep, why myself and others never saw him as a DM.  In fairness, neither did LJ initially, as he played Brownhill as the DM with Palmer and Massengo more free.

[MJP3]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Is this your work….or you just sharing a link?

 

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

Good stuff.

Have you broken down his running and  passing stats by game period?

I just post a link if no one else has already. I'm far too lazy to do it myself.

As I said, I do it in the hope others might find it interesting, but mainly in the hope that someone will explain what it all means. (Hi Dave)

For those not aware, there is a News Aggregator that you can tune to Bristol City if you're masochistic enough.

https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/Football/Championship/Bristol+City

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by MJP3

[MJP3]

39 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Is goals per 90 - 63rd centile correct…..or is that because the 63% of your data cut contains players with no goals?  It jumped out at me!!!

 

It jumped out at me too. I was hoping someone (yeah, mainly you.) would make sense of this nonsense for me.

Stop Slacking.

Edited November 11, 2021 by MJP3

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, MJP3 said:

It jumped out at me too. I was hoping someone (yeah, mainly you.) would make sense of this nonsense for me.

Stop Slacking.

I assume that there is a big chunk of players sat with 0.00 goals p90, and when a centile ranking is applied, all players with >0.00 are centile 64 and above.  And the centile ranking doesn’t deal with multiple items very well.

@ExiledAjax thoughts?

I don’t use centiles in my data, because I prefer using the actual values.  In this case knowing HNM has 0.00 goals per 90 gives a clearer view than saying he’s is the 63rd centile, above average.  Basically he’s part of a group of zeros between the 0-63 centile.

[ExiledAjax]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I assume that there is a big chunk of players sat with 0.00 goals p90, and when a centile ranking is applied, all players with >0.00 are centile 64 and above.  And the centile ranking doesn’t deal with multiple items very well.

@ExiledAjax thoughts?

I don’t use centiles in my data, because I prefer using the actual values.  In this case knowing HNM has 0.00 goals per 90 gives a clearer view than saying he’s is the 63rd centile, above average.  Basically he’s part of a group of zeros between the 0-63 centile.

To my mind ultimately it comes from attempting to rank a player in a category that requires n=1 when his value for n is 0. It's absurd as no player with 0 goals can possibly have any value for goals/90. You wouldn't include strikers in the ranking for saves/90 would you?

In short you are correct Dave.

So yeh I'd suggest that the numbers are run again, excluding all who have <1 goal.

Ultimately it is more useful in this case to state that he's scored 0, as 0 per 90 tells you the same thing anyway. Perhaps compare him with other players in his position if you really want to test him on that quality.

[spudski]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, why myself and others never saw him as a DM.  In fairness, neither did LJ initially, as he played Brownhill as the DM with Palmer and Massengo more free.

Much prefer Brownhill in a more offensive role too.

Now he really can read a game and intercept balls and quickly go on the offensive, plus an eye for goal. 

[sh1t_ref_again]

Would be interesting if there is a difference in his stats for the last few games since injured versus earlier in the season where he seemed to be MOM each game, recently does not seem to stand out and much poorer performances

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

Would be interesting if there is a difference in his stats for the last few games since injured versus earlier in the season where he seemed to be MOM each game, recently does not seem to stand out and much poorer performances

Looking at very basic stats like shots, etc….he’s been less productive last 2 games, but his output v Barnsley was alright.

[Dave L]

I am hugely impressed by the huge amount of data and charts produced by posters like @Davefevs Am I the only one who hasn't got a clue what they mean?

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I thought Massengo was quite poor against Coventry. But like with many players it isnt always down to them if the team is not set up in a way to get the best out of them.

Barnsley near the end as the team looked so poor I thought he looked decent.

QPR away is the level I want to see more often. Wow he was unbelievable that day. I agree his levels have mainly dropped.

Cardiff (a) too.

Just now, Dave L said:

I am hugely impressed by the huge amount of data and charts produced by posters like @Davefevs Am I the only one who hasn't got a clue what they mean?

Me neither Dave.

[REDOXO]

I like Massengo good feet and moves around and will sometimes provide a key pass or get in the way
 

However he won’t add a goal or an assist and if we are in a battle to grind out points he can get lost and lose his man. 
 

We are in need of a hero right now someone who will change our current trajectory,HNM is not that guy unless something changes. Trouble is who is? 
 

I feel for this boy. He’s scrutinized in a team that for want of a better way to put it is awful. If we can get James and Williams fit then you’ll see the best of HNM otherwise he’ll be the show pony in a side of also rans!

Edited November 11, 2021 by REDOXO

[Davefevs]

Massengo to Newcastle?

 

[MJP3]

On 11/11/2021 at 16:29, Davefevs said:

I assume that there is a big chunk of players sat with 0.00 goals p90, and when a centile ranking is applied, all players with >0.00 are centile 64 and above.  And the centile ranking doesn’t deal with multiple items very well.

@ExiledAjax thoughts?

I don’t use centiles in my data, because I prefer using the actual values.  In this case knowing HNM has 0.00 goals per 90 gives a clearer view than saying he’s is the 63rd centile, above average.  Basically he’s part of a group of zeros between the 0-63 centile.

That was my best guess too.

I fully agree with what you were saying, however, it has just occurred to me that percentiles can be of use in some circumstances, especially for those not as familiar with stats as yourself.

Most fans will have no problem with looking at a number for goals or assists, consider the player's position and decide if it's a satisfactory return.

Myself, I have no interest in, or watch any Club football apart from City. I therefore assume Kalas is high in the overall rankings for blocks, without the actual knowledge.

You probably know roughly the average blocks over a season for a C.B., for the rest of us, it's easier to see a %age better/worse than check and compare every C.B in the league.

I just realised I've done this in the past when Frank Fielding was getting a lot of criticism on here for his distribution.

It turns out there were 7 or 8 keepers with better records. However, after assuming yet again they weren't all instructed to kick towards the line, and many of those 7 or 8 had come down from the Prem, decided he wasn't too bad at all in reality for our level.

As it wasn't expressed as a percentile, I was glad most teams had just fielded one keeper.

However, as you suggested, in many other areas they're a bit rubbish.