the1stknowle

Yeah, I think that's fair. While I am far from convinced and clearly there remains a lot of stuff being unsaid and nowhere near enough credit for Nige on the stabilising effect, massive cultural change, connection with fans, and steady football progress, the 20mins Ive just watched is not the blathering fool incoherently failing to string a thought together that some of the posts on here are making out. He shouldn't be in this role but he is and that is not changing soon it seems. So I hope he rises to it, puts the work and real commitment in, and starts centring fan communication in keeping with the idea of being a custodian of a club on behalf of the community. While miles from ideal, this interview/chat is a bit of progress.

So I guess the difference is the club-wide, existential impact that a bad player can have versus that a bad owner can have. And also the preponderance of really bad owners throughout English football in last few years. That said, I agree that its not really a useful argument - it's just the other side of the Lansdown is the devil argument. Maybe next owner will be awful; maybe they will be amazing; maybe at times they will be both. But there will be a different owner in the future at some point, so we will find out then. For my part, I think there are very clearly things that the Lansdown era has done to advance the club and put us on a firm footing and I'm sad that things have turned so toxic as we have much to be thankful for with an owner like this. I also believe he has done it for the 'right' reasons and it has cost him not insignificant fortunes, even by the standards of his own wealth. But clearly he has made mistakes and we have lacked a really consistent plan over years. And the leadership seem to keep shifting that plan fairly whimsically in favour of the next shiny thing (RIP the pillars) or the public communication between plan (self reliance, focus on Academy, cut our cloth, nest egg) is at odds with the public communication of targets and expectations (get promoted, dont fall into the bottom half of table even for a few weeks, outperform, top 10 budget, great squad). That, as a fan, is frustrating and requires really good, open comms to fully understand and question - and we don't get that these days, which adds to the toxicity, which then - apparently - makes leadership retreat from that toxicity even further. A vicious circle. Most importantly, appointing his own very inexperienced and seemingly somewhat disinterested son as Chair was a catastrophic error. You need to work twice as hard to overcome nepotism, not half as hard. But, with that decision made, we need to understand that it is his son and so an almost impossible decision to roll back because obviously, picking between the club and your blood, you choose the latter. I think a lot of the toxicity flows from this replacement when Steve decided to take a step back and Steve's inability/understandable unwillingness to roll it back or intervene to address it. It wasn't a serious decision that you'd expect from a serious man like him. And that, I think, has always undermined some of the serious aspirations they have for this club.

Again, this is my point. You can do this cherry picking of things they got right and wrong to even the most successful managers. If the criterion is 'won stuff' then that is different conversation, but not the point I was responding to.

Exactly my point, right.

The same Mourinho that sold De Bruyne and Salah; the same Pep who fell out with Ibra and was openly disrespected by Messi in the changing room; the same Tuchel that got knocked out of the German Cup by a third division side last night…. …you can do this for every manager.

What was combined number of career trophies of the managers that got the three teams promoted from the championship last year?

Could you not, if you wanted to which I’m sure you don’t, make exactly the same point about Steve Lansdown (underwriting massive losses each year to keep us in championship) and Brian Tinnion (establishing the pathway that has allowed us to sell £35m of youth product in last few years). I am not especially happy with the club right now. But there is some very convenient cherry picking of heroes and villains going on on this forum. Alongside some wild catastrophizing of the situation we are in.

There is def no assumption from me that a career pathway contains jobs that have same skills and competencies. Businesses need to create pathways to retain talent, not put ceilings over people. A promotion nearly always involves new skills, often that are very different from previous roles. But you identify talent and grow them. In so doing, you stretch them. So your question ‘do you promote and then wait to see if they are qualified?’ is, to me, a false framing. I understand why you asked it that way and appreciate what you’re getting at. But, yes, in a sense you do often promote people before they are ‘qualified’. (Assuming you don’t mean formal qualifications). Its about identifying talent and capacities and then having a confidence that someone has the skills, ethic and capacity to grow into a new role. No guarantees. but no guarantees the other way either. Esp in football. Is Zidane qualified to manage Real if pirlo is not qualified to manage juve? I’m sure people that wanted to make the argument that one was, one wasn’t, could retrospectively make a case why ZZ was qualified and Pirlo wasn’t. But no one is accurately making the case prospectively. Anyway, I’m not sure it’s useful to go down a rabbit hole of discussion about how to promote and retain talent. My point is a more general one in reaction to a strain of posts I’ve seen in last few days: Brian Tinnion is not a football know nothing. In each role at City since he came back, he has proven himself so it’s not an outrage or cronyism or because he’s a snake, a grass, or a sycophant that he holds a senior football position at this club, and there should be an element of respect if he holds a different football opinion to someone else on the football side. What in your opinion is a qualifying career path for a DoF or Technical Director? Is Tinn’s elevation that unreasonable compared to the career path of others in similar roles at other clubs? Whether he is making the right calls, I’m not arguing about. Whether long term he grows into this more senior position, I have no idea. Whether, if it is true that he is now assuming a more expansive role than previously outlines, that is in best interests of club, I have no idea. And I’m definitely not saying you have called him any of the names above, although I get the impression from your post, maybe unfairly, you are not that enamoured with him. But I’ve been as disgusted by various comments about someone who I think deserves much more respect from fans of this club, as I have been about the decision to get rid of Nige. Hence being compelled to write much more than I usually do on this particular topic. Not expecting to change minds (ya man posting snake emojis will continue posting his emojis.) And certainly not wanting to defend any aspect of this total shower from the club. But I am wanting to defend Tinns a bit.

But smell of what? That this is all Tinnion pushing self advancement and power grab? As opposed to a genuine attempt to do what right for club, right or wrong. I guess time will tell. I don’t want to go all in on defence as I hate the decision and the comms around it is risible. Including Tins interview. That was a mistake unless the club gives him free rein to speak openly. it’s the personal abuse of a man I think deserves better I am against. And the rewriting of history that Tinns is a football know nothing by people who clearly know less about football than Tinns. But say decision is right and new coach does well and football improves, is Tins right? Or is he still a snake for those who think that? I would add that I think that is optimistic. And no matter what, the lack of credit and acknowledgment of what Nige has done to build foundations is indefensible.

I’m not getting into an internet back and forth on the ‘point to where I said blah’. They never end well. it’s not just you I’m picking up and agree you are more measured than the real name calling posts. And yes, I am annoyed by those as I don’t think they are properly justified yet apart from by hearsay and echo chamber. And I think they go hand in hand with belittling a man who clearly cares about this club more than most, clearly knows a lot about football, and has played a leading part in turning our awful youth dev around. But I would say phrases like ‘to suddenly go from radio co host’ and ‘lies and arrogance’ go beyond an objective critique of his job performance. I know you will disagree with that. But again, not particularly singling you out. I’m really against all this personal and professional abuse of a man I think deserves a lot more respect, who loves the club and is obviously so proud of the youth pathway. But all that aside, a man that has done a good professional job in each role he’s been given in recent years and so has earned promotions Not really much more to say as I know I won’t change minds of those who have decided Tinns is some kind of cancer in the club. And I’m similarly unlikely to change my mind and suddenly start thinking that he is.

No words put in your mouth at all. I actually left out your worst words to give you benefit of the doubt. Re does that qualify him - if I do well in my job, I get promoted. And if I do well in that role, I get promoted again. That is what qualifies you for the next job up. And that is exactly what he’s done. He was not handed on a plate the technical director job. He’s progressed on merit. And now in role, time will tell if he’s qualified. But what would show him as unqualified is if he was too scared to voice his own football opinions.

But he’s not a radio co host is he. And there is ample evidence that he has done well in the footballing jobs he has been given over last several years. Unless you are saying it is pure coincidence that we have gone from never producing a youth asset who does anything with their career to a fairly consistent pipeline of players of interest to top flight I don’t get these straw man arguments. Can people not disagree with Tins without rewriting history and saying he’s done nothing for club since they brought him back?

Completely agree with this. I’d go even further and say that the evidence Tinns is unsuitable for the job has been conflated with him being caught up in this odd messaging around the sacking. By and large he’s doing a good job given the hand dealt. And so often on this forum, people bemoan lack of input from ‘football people’. But does anyone on this forum honestly think they know more about football than Tinns? I’ve never felt more confident in the quality of player we are bringing in for the money we are spending. The current hit rate is very good. And obviously we have all seen the current academy hit rate and quality. There was a time when Dan Cole’s and Aaron Brown were as good as it got every decade or so Tinns seems to be doing a really decent job. And if he has footballing opinions that differ from manager, it is entirely right he voices those. That is literally the job. (so long as manager remains in final control of team). And I say all that while acknowledging the decision on Nige is wrong and the half assed messaging around it which is leaving out a lot of stuff we would all rather club were up front about is patronising and disrespectful to fans. But I still think it’s fine for Tinns to have his own opinions, in keeping with his job, that differ from Nige. And that doesn’t make him a snake, rat, grass or any of the other grim shouts currently directed at him.

For me it’s more this obvious party line of ‘as the club in 15th place in the table’. This is repeated a few times as if 15th is where we have finished. We HAVE been challenging at right end of table, are still not far off playoffs, and have quickly fallen to 15th off the back of a few bad results when struck by what they concede are massive injuries. ‘15th’ is a snapshot in time that is deliberately being exaggerated to say we are falling short. The obvious come back would be that for a lot of the season we’ve been hovering just outside top 6 - so we have usually been challenging at right end which seems to be the bar they are setting. I’m still not seeing ‘snake’ or some of the more vicious stuff being thrown at Tins. But it’s annoying that there is so much getting left unsaid and hinted at around injuries and style of play and training methods. Would have a lot more respect if they joined the dots and said ‘we want to play a different kind of football to Nigel’. Wouldn’t agree, but at least it would be some clarity. Pretty woeful as a comms exercise. Not what was needed.

Clearly.

I’m really struggling to understand all the Tins hate that is emerging across the forum. Done incredible things with the youth set up and scouting and clearly loves the club. I’ve seen accusations he’s a snake. Someone calling him a ‘grass’ because of stuff that ex players who badly let the club down in the early 2000s have supposedly said since retiring. Criticism that he reacted to someone on Twitter saying he lacked bollox - as if anyone wouldn’t react to that. What have I missed here about Tins? Is it literally just he works for the Lansdowns? He’s doing a great job so surely deserves chance to advance his career without necessarily being ‘a yes man’ or ‘in SLs pocket’. I loved Nige as the face of our club. I’m absolutely gutted he’s gone. I have been a Steve Lansdown supporter and am gutted at this behaviour and the fact that all those who have been calling him an arrogant dictator are slowly being proved correct (although I still think there are obvious great things he’s done for this club). But I cannot for life of me understand the ire being directed at Tinnion when he seems to be someone doing his job well, who has completely revolutionised our approach to youth progression, and always comes across as so passionate about the club. Even if him and NP didn’t see eye to eye, that alone doesn’t make Tins the baddie here.

Or 'a proper professional grateful for the incredible opportunity he has been given and not a complete bellend determined to booze his career away' as it is also know.

As much as I hate the decision today, I hate the ire being directed at Tinns even more. Man is a legend and doing an incredible job. Attacks on him by association are ridiculous. Peversely, if the decision was actually Tinns wanting a HC he could work with, at least it would make some footballing sense and I could start to get behind it. But I don't think that is what has happened here at all.

Strong preference for Eustace out of the names mentioned so far. But like most others, I’m pretty gutted to find ourselves in this position. Felt like we were making steady progress and even though it was going to take time, it would eventually work and our fans seemed unusually patient. Sacking Nige is really off. I’m a big defender of SL but this just feels gross. Coming so soon after Phil Alexander leaving too.. clearly there are issues. It shouldn’t undo all SL has done for us. Which is a lot. But this is so at odds with his usual MO of backing the manager - esp when barely any fans were calling for it. So clearly it’s a personality thing - likely between Nige and JL. Which is all to say, whoever the new manager is, they have to start against context of barely any fans wanting them to be there. Tough gig. I’ll back them (a few names aside) - but I was happier with what we had.

Isn’t this entire forum people with no real professional football experience thinking they know better than people that have been in football their entire lives? That’s sort of the fun of being a football fan.

I’m definitely not in the SL out brigade. And I do think a lot of stuff on here is conspiratorial at times. But, in fairness, the resignation statement not mentioning SL would suggest - suggest only - that there is a problem between them rather than any of the things you mention.

This is OTIB. Bemoaning is unavoidable.

Possibly. But if Blackpool coped with them, you would hope we could have. Moot now. But thought he looked great.

Not to talk about a Swansea player after a performance like that but Patino is very good already. And now has three assists already for season. Would have loved him here.

Well presumably, while we aren’t ‘without sin’, we aren’t all woman beaters and rapists. Unless all sins are equal so we can never say anything about anyone doing anything?? As well discussed, the ‘cleared of all charges’, while arguably true at a technical level, is only half the story and the pictures and audio tell their own public story that require some public explanation if he wants public forgiveness. (If legal resolution and private forgiveness is all he wants and needs, that’s absolutely fine, but that likely won’t get him his career back any time soon). Admitting you ‘weren’t perfect’ is not a confession or an explanation such that people can move on. He needs to explain it properly. If he doesn’t want to, if it is too damaging for his partner, fine. But he probably won’t have a chance to get his football career back until he does. Hes basically said ‘I’m not perfect but I didn’t do what I’m accused of. I know it looks like I’m a serial abuser and possibly a rapist and there is strong evidence showing I am, but I’m not, so I hope that’s settled and can I move on now and get a sweet contract because I’m ace at football’. I believe in redemption and rehabilitation. But first step in understanding abusive behaviour is to admit to it. If he’s not willing to do that, then how can he ask for public forgiveness? And public forgiveness is what he needs to get his career back. And, the thing no one seems to mention, just because he’s been caught out and had a baby with his victim, that doesn’t draw a line under his abuse. If he isn’t properly addressing it, if he’s in denial, then the chances are he will do it again. Second chances are not impossible. Third chances much less likely.