Fuber

Interest Millsy mentions Wrigley. Seemed to hold him in really high opinion with regards to So'tons youth setup.

1 hour ago, EmersonsKev said:

I had this chat with a friend earlier this week. 

 

Did anyone see anything from his loan spell to think he was worth spending a rumoured £3m/£4m and sizable wages on? 

 

A total head scratch signing for me. 

Mark Ashton.

End of Story. 

Spent money for the sake of it to benefit his agent connections.

4 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Probably the most balanced assessment of him on this thread.

He reminds me of Matt Hill in that his crosses or passes can be spot on or end up hitting the corner flag. Consistency is all he is lacking.

Comes down to concentration.

Plain and simple, and it's the fault of many when stepping up to Championship level imo. Again at PL being another step.

Made the point on another thread but.

Having Semeno link well and take on his man, made me realise how poor Andi has been with regards to his general play the last 5 or so games, irrespective of goals.

May very well be he just needs a rest but, was seeming invisible for huge parts of the game today.

Once Tanner is fit, if we could play Antoine, Scott, Martin, that could be something to keep an eye on. Would then be a case of Martin leaving end of season, and possibly getting a new target man, more mobile maybe - if - we can get rid of some deadwood.

2 hours ago, !james said:

https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/524079/page:1

The penny is dropping for some of them!

But my favourite comment:

"Nobody has had their head stuck in the sand over Ashton. Some people prefer to take people as they find them, rather than rely on the views of a bunch of weird Bristol City window lickers whose club has not exactly roared up the league since he left."

Huh.

Almost as if we've had to ruthlessly cut wages as much as possible due to an incompetent CEO: shunting up wages to turnover 50% over the course of his period in charge while performances became worse the more of the formers signings were introduced,  the club struggling to remain within FFP, same CEO who over his tenure then also butchered our medical, fitness, and scouting departments, which are still or are going to need to be resolved over the course of this season, and possibly next. A CEO whose only benefit is his negotiating skills when selling a player.

Nah, definitely couldn't correlate.

I'd have given Weimann a poorer rating than Martin on today's showing. Invisible near most of the game aside from the cutback for Martins missed chance, was a step off the pace the entire 90.

As others mention, if Antoine was match fit I reckon Martin would've gone off for Wells.

They've been run like a circus for years and Kenwright is completely detached from the fans.

I'm not commenting on other fans actions, as like us this season, it's from the outside looking in. We may not know all the details, ergo I can't criticise their fans, when it's their money and their choice.

14 hours ago, REDOXO said:

I agree. However Scott has as much potential and probably more than Massengo. IMO of course. 

Relative, I consider them to be different players. And there are other players I would shift before Massengo, especially in respect of wages.

Ideally, with the current squad, we need another right back as Vyner simply is not the answer in that role and Simpson is done. Tanner injured has highlighted this.

DaSilva and Palmer need selling to free up wages, period. May be we look to the loan market to allow scouting to take place and recruit in summer. Kalas I could see leaving to free up wages, which if combined with the former two, hopefully we can shift Wells even at a discount to free up a further £25kpw - gives us circa £70kpw, which when budgeted is three £1m signings at £8-10kpw wages, and maybe a loan or two.

I think we need to keep Massengo as we know he can actually perform at this level. Depends on contract negotiations. If it's not looking good then he's going to have to be sold in the summer anyway.

5 hours ago, Harry said:

All of the “old uns” mentioned in this thread who have done well for us have all been whilst we were in League 1. 
I can’t recall many (if any) successes whilst in the championship. 
That’s not to say you can’t do it successfully, but when it comes to doing it at Champ level, you have to get it very very right. 
We all know that L1 to Champ is a big step and it’s a very different game. “Old uns” have to be “very good old uns” at this level. 

Just to check Harry, three of the five I specifically quoted, as they played for us primarily at Championship level and we're all decently over the age of 30 when we let them go.

In theory Wilbs did also play a role keeping us up the first season. So could count as four of the five.

The issue with the older players signed since is that our Fitness, Conditioning, and Medical under Rolls' was a car crash. It's multiple areas that failed under LJ and Ashton's tenure.

See O'Neill's injury treatment - we basically ended his career.

6 hours ago, Pezo said:

I wonder what the average is across the league. I like to think most of the time if you're the big fish (us in league 1) then you should really be getting about 1 in every 2 correct, if your the small/medium fish (us in the championship) you should probably be looking at 1 in every 4 (we can't attract the best players at this level so there is a lot more risk and likelihood of getting it wrong).

1 in 12 is frankly embarrassing and shine's a 1000 watt bulb on our problems, I wonder what the warning signs were because a lot of those players could be doing better for us.

I do wonder if the club hierarchy know this level, we do like players that seem to be average league 1 players (we never buy the best league 1 players), old championship level players that are past it and prem castoffs that think they are too good for league 1 but that would also be there natural level.

The start of the 'collapse' was LJ himself.

He thought he was Guardiola and tried tinkering counter each and every opposition he faced.

Even when he stumbled onto the idea of Reid as a pressng forward or as he put it the 'double false nine' with Pato, the second Diedhiou was back, Pato was shipped to LM, Reid to CAM, collapse occurred as he did what LJ alway did when we started losing. The tombola came out again.

Huge initial investment kept momentum in his first two seasons, the issue was once we started selling. LJ went for options, plural, instead of faith in a  like-for-like replacmemt. I.e. Weimann, Palmer,  and Watkins were signed when Reid was sold. Moore was recalled after we sold Flint, we also signed Kalas and Webster.

It's not the fees that screwed us, it was wages. Kalas and Webster may have worked, but Flint was on his extended contract at the point so, circa £10kpw, wages of the former two we were likely around £30kpw. Weimann, Palmer, Watkins probably around £35kpw to replace Reid's 6kpw (L1?) deal. 

Add that to poor punts on decent wages such as Djuric, Engvall, Tomlin.

Put another way, aside from loans out, we bought in 17 players between 2018-20. In the same period, we sold 7.

15 hours ago, WWred said:

Christ how many older players have we signed over the last few years to provide that 'experienced head' that have turned out to be ******* useless.. Danny Simpson, Chris Brunt, Gary O'Neil, Jody Morris. It never bloody works for us signing the experienced general type players

Hartley, Odemwingie, Cisse, Wade Elliott, Wilbraham.

Can and has worked for us jn days past as much as against us. The issue, is that like most signings, due diligence did not occur (under MA, period), and at the point we signed Simpson, Hunt was playing pretty damn badly.

I can understand NP punting on one of his (former) most consistent 6.5/10 performer at Leicester as emergency cover, the bad decision in this case was the extension, while injured, at the age of 34 going on 35.

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He’s ok….but his Midlands bias is there for all to see.

Quest have done well with the likes of McAnuff (also on Sky) and Parkin.  They played predominantly across the leagues and don’t have this big-club bias / entitlement and are far more objective.  Their analysis is very good.  Quite like Dean Ashton too.

Need more of the ilk to be honest. League professionals who have both played in, and not played, in PL.

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

It's weird ..........Williams played over one hundred games over 3 seasons prior to joining us, with hardly an injury.  Yet since he has been with us, it has been constant injury issues.  He is 25 next month, so has plenty of time ahead of him, just hope we can keep him fit and healthy, as he is a very important player for us.  He seems to have developed an ongoing weakness with his hamstrings, hoping our medical team can sort him out?

One reason.

Andrew Roll's medical team.

Ever since he was appointed in 2018 till he left this summer, injuries under LJ, DH, and NP were measurable. Add to that his records at Watford and Arsenal.

It very well could not be his fault. But there's a definite correlation.

1 hour ago, YGBjammy said:

Proud to support a club who actually let's them play. Perhaps brought about by circumstances, but still credit to the club for trusting them.

A lot of clubs talk the talk about their youth academies but rarely do you actually see players given a decent chance.

On this note - I think it has to be said - Fairplay to Nige.

For all the talk that LJ gave younger players a chance and we profited, the only one who wasn't playing first team football at the point he introduced them to the squad was Kelly(?) unless I'm mistaken. Not countin Brownhill as he knew him before he joined us.

To take the risk implenting and trusting two academy players on the right hand side - never mind on the pitch at the same time - could've been pretty huge if it backfired, both against Blackburn and again today.

It did not. Both of them heart-on-sleave stuff and repaying NP's trust. Back the process.

51 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Another 'proven' manager that goes horribly wrong, Coppell before and no wonder SL doesn't go big more often.

Coppell had a track record of being out of and in love with football before Reading.

Nige was a risk with the real battering he took from CoVID the first time around.

SL's problem is that he only goes for the big appointment when the backend (finances, directors) is completely ****ed.

1 hour ago, pl00peh91 said:

Would be interested to know if the club will be required to pay off the rest of NP’s contract if he’s leaving due to ill health.

Wouldn't surprise me if it turns out to be health it would be mutual.

2 minutes ago, pride of the west said:

I dont get this Shakespeare thing. Wasn't he the man behind the transfers and player identification with Pearson? If so its not as if he'd be any good to us as we aint got a pot to urinate in.

That was Steve Walsh.

Shakespeare was his assistant at Leicester and Hull.

3 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Wilder just announced by Boro. 

Thats a very good coup for them.

14 hours ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I have to agree with this sentiment.

Steve Lansdown has backed managers in the transfer market, in NP he brought in the manager we all wanted. FFP will mean transfers will be restricted whatever SL wants to do.

Look at Rovers when they got a new owner they were coming for us now they are struggling in league 2.

I think it's time people stopped blaming SL, LJ or MA. The team are getting worse and that has got to be down to the manager and coaches. I thought NP was going to make us serious challengers in this division but his record with us has got relegation written all over it.

The form under NP is not down to SL who has and still is a good owner.

 

Disagree.

Everyone says that in regards to FFP his hands are tied. True he is.

However as the founder of a financial sector firm, the the fact Ashton and LJ were able to stack the club with rising wages and a bloated squad, falls directly his purview.

He's in this position due to his own lack of oversight of the football club he owns. Ashton was his appointment. 

This is, it's not even the first time this has happened under his watch, the whole relegation after Coppell came down to wage spending cuts and awful appointments (Millen (the assistant of the stale regime), McInnes (the manager people wanted to work), over a four year period.

The rot started back in 2018 with regards to our rising wage costs and only got worse, we're three years in. We once again have a squad that aren't good enough. Non-existent coaching. Poor recruitment. Toxic Culture.

All roads point to League One again.

He just isn't learning. 

He needs to appoint a competent football operations director onto the board who can then refer to the former and discuss an overarching strategy, and go from there.

Not someone like Ashton who completely failed previously at this level with Watford, comprehensively.

On paper, the best to get something out of this squad, with the current players available, is someone who can run 3atb.

That leaves Chris Wilder or Ryan Lowe.

Will either join us? Unlikely.

12 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Yes his hands are tied but that doesn’t mean he can’t coach improvement- that is the least we should expect from an experienced manager.

He must step up and improve the players who have talent like Kasey and JD not simply cast them aside.

Most of the players havent been good enough for three years in some cases under 3 managers, and 4 assistants despite having 'talent' in this squad.

12 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Pearson was here for a payday first and foremost. 

That has become quite clear. 

Indifference personified. 

Not buying whatever you're selling.

I think it seems more the case that evidently, with the second bout of COVID and missing the match today - it may have more to do with his health rather than him simply being here for a payday, I don't think the latter is true at all. It needs to be pointed out that, he could have quite easily walked come the end of the season - but he saw a project that he really wanted to work with (god knows how) - and his reputation from his time at Leicester would have remained mostly untarnished ahoc his spell at Watford. He's done work where he can with regards to recruitment (Tanner, Atkinson), and Medical (Rennie). If he only wanted the money, he would have never stepped in here back after Holden's sacking - could have just waited for another PL gig to come aorund from a club in trouble, Villa, Norwich, among others as examples.

Really, really, want it to work; but I think akin to O'Driscoll, there's simply too much for one manager to sort from the ground up in such a short space of time without impacting performances on the pitch; it may be easier for us to poach another manager (and ergo coaching staff) from a manager already in employment - but that costs money. Can we even afford that under FFP?

19 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

Guess we will very soon see if it was the coaches fault or not. 

Will see, I'll be judging it over the next 5 games once we have similar players available.

I have a feeling losing James when we have - let's hope its not too serious - could severely hamper us. As I personally think losing Nagy is going to be tougher on us than we may have realised, especially with King injured, and Bakinson on his current form; as in nowhere near good enough for this level this season.

7 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

We have no idea if Pearson is the right person for the job. So far his team are getting worse the longer he works with them. 

Which coincides with him sacking the two coaches the most hands on with the players; he gave them a chance, they've failed; he's a delegator more than hands on, he's since learned he couldn't trust the coaches under him.

58 minutes ago, westex red said:

losing Eliason, Ayling and Webster was a huge mistake

And Pack is still sorely missed!

I'd say the only mistake of those four was Ayling; especially considering the miniscule fee recieved, that was LJ and MA's single biggest blunder, along with the former not playing Nagy and Benkovic in the lead up to his sacking.

As for Eliasson, Webster, and Pack; I'd argue we made the right decisions moving them on. Once again - the issue was not adequately replacing them.

For context, for that fee alone we could have bought the likes of Ethan Pinnock, Anthonee Robinson, Ivan Toney, Ezri Konsa, Said Benrahma, and Oliver Norwood off the top of my head who were playing abroad and or at a lower level and were available at that time, with change. Granted hindsight etc. Using FM (I know, I know) simply for wage estimates at their clubs for the following season (20/21), the former list comes to around £55-60kpw.

While in reality we bought: Kalas (£8m), Massengo (£3m rising to £8m), Wells (£4m), Palmer (£4m), DaSilva (£2m), Bentley (£2m), Nagy (£2m), Szmodics (£1m) over the course of the following 12 months of that sale. All bar two on very expensive contracts for us at this level (Massengo, Szmodics). That, was the big issue with out receruitment strategy, and why we're now crippled; using the same method (i.e. FM 20/21 wages), that equates to £100-110kpw. Stupid spending that MA and LJ were both culpable for; the former for allowing that inflated a budget and spending, and the latter for signing 'clubs in the bag'.

It wasn't the transfer fees that crippled us; we should never have operated at over 125% of base turnover before fees recieved. Ashton didn't sign players to develop, he signed premier league cast offs who were much more expensive than their lower league counterparts with regards to wages. He simply signed extra players to fill the 'development' quota; however they were never used - for which LJ takes the blame, as the latter development could never be done while he focused on countering the opposition instead of developing an identity for oursleves; more experienced players would be easier to deploy as having greater anticipation.

It's why its good that we're at least blooding younger lower league signings (what of them we have so far) and academy players - i.e. Tanner, Atkinson, Scott, Benarous, Pearson, Conway, Bell, etc. The issue remains expensive players on deals they simply do not deserve, i.e. DaSilva, Palmer, O'Dowda, Wells, among others.