italian dave

49 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Elvis Costello & The Attractions - I Can't Stand Up For Falling Down

Hold Me Tight……Denzil Denis

8 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

No I don’t have you anywhere near an anti Pearson screamer or massive critic

And you completely misread or have comprehended what I’ve said to you

You were noticeably extremely supportive of LJ and defended him throughout even when it was clear what was festering

(Personally I’m  not into blind faith or let’s just ‘hope’)

You are pretty quick to make snipes at or get restless about critics of LM , or considered and explained criticism of him , and appear pretty keen to defend him

I may of course , have simply missed any sort of similar supportive  posts of Pearson when he was here 

 

As for the screamers (Maybe whiners would have been better) who wanted him out - there were , and are many (Including some who now want Manning out amusingly) If you haven’t noticed them , then you aren’t looking too hard or choosing not to , and I do and will challenge them 

 

 

Well I’m glad I’m not a screamer!! Thanks!

And as I’ve said before, I make no apology for supporting LJ, as I support every other City manager as long as they’re in the job.

Interesting that you mention blind faith and let’s just hope, because I’d say that it’s not being into them that’s the reason why I take the view I do!

There’s a theory of life I’ve long tried to follow that talks about the value of distinguishing between those things you can control, those things you can influence, and those things over which you have neither control nor influence. And which says that there’s a lot of wasted energy and emotion involved in worrying about the latter. The value is in focusing on the first two.

Whether any manager stays in a job or gets the sack is something over which I have no control or influence. And I suspect that’s the same for pretty much everyone in here. So it just feels like a waste of energy and effort to get too worked up about it.

I’d rather put my energy into positive things that support the club. 

@SkuseMe Thanks for the post: I won’t ‘quote’ the whole thing again!

On that view of Ashton among Ipswich fans: I’m sure you’re right and to be fair the guys we met said just that. That theirs wasn’t a view many others would share.

As for the game, you seem to have seen it much as they did. And I have to say that even as a fan of the losing side I thought it was a great game to watch: thoroughly enjoyed it.

I’d say good luck for the rest of the season: but - selfishly - I’d much prefer a trip to Ipswich again next season than another one to Leeds or Leicester!!

3 hours ago, Sheltons Army said:

It’s called doubling down Gull

The loudest anti Pearson screamers are feeling a bit vulnerable 

Who exactly are the “anti-Pearson screamers”, SA?

Given recent comments you’ve made, maybe you have me down as one? And if that’s the case then - as I’ve said to you several times - you have that completely wrong.

If not, who?

I honestly can’t recall any sort of concerted anti NP sentiment last year, and certainly no concerted campaign calling for his departure.

Ive just had a quick  look back at the last two matchday threads of NPs tenure. Both defeats. I thought maybe I’d forgotten something. But, no, no sort of campaign at all - quite the opposite in fact. And, as far as I could see, not a single post calling for him to be sacked.

I just wonder whether these ‘screamers’ exist in the same place as Bristol Sport employees?! 

27 minutes ago, red panda said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only 34 posts so far that explicitly mention Nige (I didn't pick those where the reference was only implicit, even if it was obvious)

Bloody hell RP!!

Its bad enough having to wade through umpteen threads all having a moan, without finding a whole thread repeated within a thread

43 minutes ago, cheese said:

As I see it, Nige created a team of greyhounds (runners) whereas Manning (also read Tinnion) wants a team of intelligent footballers.  Not enough of our current squad fit into that category.  Now you can argue until you're blue in the face that Manning should adapt to the squad he has and play to their strengths but that's not what he was brought in to do.  It will be painful until he has the players he wants.  The hierarchy decided that we were safe from relegation this season and so November was the best time to press the button.  Whether they were right on timing we shall see.  Whether they were right on the appointment depends on us staying up and then seeing what happens next season.

40 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Then why were the club so clear with their expectations for the season, which was progress/success?

They didn't say - transition and do our best until the summer when we can replace and rebuild the squad for a year or twos time.

So what was Manning brought in to do?

You could maybe argue that you’re both right?! And that reflects the bungled and illogical nature of the comms plan the club put together to deal with it.

Everything is in place we have a top end squad, we don’t need to change anything, but we are changing things. Everything’s hunk dory and we’re bringing in someone different to do the same as the person we’ve just sacked. At the same time we need to do something different to get to a different place to where we are now. 

It doesn’t make sense. Which means you can read into it what you will. 

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

What are the comparative “challenges” you see that should’ve resulted in equal treatment?

For me, Nige inherited a mess and therefore needed a period of time to reset the club.

Liam took over a club in a “healthy state” - BT:

”best squad in a long time, well contracted, only 3 OOC in the summer”

In fairness he did say “when fit”.  Although we have seen a few more creep in over recent weeks, they’ve been spread across the positions, so he hasn’t had to play players out of position.

Depth has been an issue for both, but we are then back to budgets!

FWIW I don’t think Manning is shit, there are things I like about the way he’s done things.  But just too many areas I’m not convinced by.  I didn’t like everything Nige did either.

 

 

I think maybe you’ve answered your own question Dave!

I guess we’ll see whether the January window was about budgets or about who’s available come the summer.

One thing I think is often overlooked - because it’s out of sight and off the field - is the issue of relationships and trust. If the assumptions on here are correct, then that was NPs downfall at the end of the day. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but you’d imagine/hope that relationship and trust between senior people is now better. And that has to be a good thing for the club.

I know you can debate whether the right people ended up leaving when those relationships broke down - but that’s a fairly pointless debate: it’s just about being realistic!

And I know you can make the case @Capman  makes above about speaking truth to power. And I don’t argue with that. But there are ways of doing that. And doing it in a way that ends up with a complete breakdown of the relationship isn’t the way.

I think you’ve made the point in the past about Gould having been the buffer between NP and JL and it’s possibly his departure that’s been more of a problem for the club than anything else.

Whether LM is just a ‘yes man’, or whether he has different skills in terms of speaking that truth - I’ve no idea, and I’m not sure anyone on here really does? 

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Come on Dave, you're trying to frame it as if my opinion on this is outrageous it appears. I'm very much not alone in thinking that we need go make a managerial change. 

I'm not sure what quality it brings to the debate talking about Jurgan Klopp. 

You're trying to frame it as if I think 'anyone but Manning' 

When he goes I won't be sat here saying "yea he'll do cos he isn't Manning" like people are over Manning/Pearson. I'll be sat here demanding the best appointment for Bristol City and I'll be similarly pissed off if we made another Manning type appointment. 

My opinion is backed by the fact Manning has got 1.10 ppg over almost half a season with a squad that should be doing much better than that. 

We don't need Jurgan Klopp to improve us from 1.10 ppg. Most competent Managers thst we could attract would out perform that. 

I'm at a complete loss to understand how you can say that I'm trying to frame your opinion as outrageous WSM. 

I've quite explicitly said that it's a legitimate view. Twice. 

I've very deliberately set out to simply say that there are different views on this; I've very deliberately stepped back from expressing my own view on it because I'm not trying to argue that one is right and one is wrong. I'm just suggesting that, depending which view you take will colour your view on the issue of finding a replacement.

All you keep doing is repeating your view. Although you occasionally say the words "other people are entitled to their view" you consistently fail to acknowledge the consequences of that when they do hold a different view.

Your last sentence sums it up. Your view is that Manning isn't a competent manager. Therefore it follows that most competent managers would be a better alternative. Someone who has a different view, that they haven't yet judged Manning incompetent, will inevitably have a different view on the likelihood of finding a better replacement. 

And, just to really really clear, I am NOT making a judgement on whether either view is right, wrong, outrageous or otherwise. I'm just making the point that those two different views on Manning's competence will lead to different conclusions about what happens next. 

13 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

No, as I said in my post it's just the next excuse as to why we shouldn't sack him from people who are desperate to not be wrong about sacking Nige and appointing Manning. 

Next week the excuse will probably be something like "can't sack him cos of the compo"

We have seen clubs make changes this season based on managers having similar records and time as Manning. They obviously didn't go along with the thought process of "well it could be worse, we might not be able to find someone better" that our fans are now putting out there. 

I'd say the general consensus is that 80% (being generous) want him to be replaced. So trying to frame it as a me against others is a bit disingenuous. 

Youve mentioned my starting point which was "not the right fit for us" but have failed to mention others starting point which was 'best up and coming young manager in England' and 'he's not Nigel' that's a bit unbalanced. 

I'd be absolutely shocked if anyone could do worse with this squad. It's a decent squad that should have comfortably reached mid table yet here we are looking over our shoulders at the relegation zone. It's been an absolute failure whatever way you decide to look at starting points. 1.10 ppg is just absolutely unacceptable with the squad that he has. 

I'm very confident in my belief that another manager could get far more out of this squad. 

The same people that are using the excuse of "we might not appoint someone better" is the same people who wanted Nige out and didn't hold that view over his dismissal. 

Basically their view was we could get better than Pearson but we can't get better than Manning and that sort of flip flopping is what I'm calling out. 

Just to clarify two things WSM:

- I'm not trying to frame it as you against others. I'm saying you hold that view. Others hold the same view, others hold a different view. They're all legitimate.

- by starting point I meant your starting point now for assessing the likelihood of us doing better if we appoint someone else. Not your starting point when LM was appointed.

Oh, and a third - I could do worse with this squad. 

I'm confident that another manager could get more too. Jurgen Klopp. But we're not going to get him. And the point I'm making is that - because of your starting point - you're going to see a great many more inferior options than that as being better options than we've got. You've said as much yourself - almost anyone. Someone who doesn't start from that point, someone who hasn't written LM off, will still see Jurgen Clop as a better option but may not see as many others as you do.

But it's all opinion and guesswork. None of us can be certain. Your view is as legitimate as anyone else's. But so is the other persons. 

Not sure what Pearson has to do with it. 

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 We will have to wait for one of LJ’s three books!  There was more slack in our finishing position without those signings!

ha ha...yes, I've often wondered if/when those will be forthcoming. Especially now he has some time on his hands!!

1 hour ago, Dolman Block B said:

Just listen to the

https://gaschat.co.uk/thread/22199/derby-next-season?page=1

It’s like reading OTIB. Except, I reckon there’s more confidence about us staying up over on gas chat than there is on here! 

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

LJ pleaded with SL to give him Nahki Wells - “he’s the final piece of the jigsaw” and by the time he was relieved of his duties and Wells wasn’t even starting (nor Benkovic, nor Henriksen).  Even SL lost patience!
I’m not sure whether you know that to be the case, or whether it’s just another of the countless myths that surround every manager. But in either case, I’d suspect that the final straw had nothing to do with Nahki Wells, it was the disappearance of any realistic prospect of a top 6 finish. 

More negative impact than LM?

More crap than LM?

All relative isn’t it?

Im sure your history of management appointments is better than mine, but has a previous manager appointment regressed us as quickly from such a good position?

See my post above in response to WSM. It’s relative, but I think that where you draw the line in terms of ‘more’ crap/negative will depend on your staring point.

20 minutes ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

I've heard every excuse in the book for Manning from not enough time on the grass to it's not his squad and now it's it will be the same people appointing a new manager so may aswell just keep Manning. It's desperation. 

 

Isn’t that because the two views start from two different premises.

I think we’d all agree that we could appoint a worse manager than LM. We could appoint me, for example!

And at the other extreme, we’d probably all welcome Jurgen Klopp taking over tomorrow, but it ain’t going to happen!

So the reality lies somewhere in between me and Jurgen Klopp  

And within that range there’s a whole array of variables around competence, availability, fit, cost and so on. Theres no absolute guarantee that anyone within that range will bring us greater success, so it’s a judgement call. 

Now, your starting point is that you’ve already written LM off.

Others haven’t.

They are both legitimate opinions: there’s no right and wrong, no absolute certainty there. But the consequence is that you’ll have a different take on the risks around the replacement and your judgement will probably draw a line in a different place to someone who’s not written him off.

Nothing wrong with that, but it’s only ‘desperation’ if you start from the premise that you do.

(Ultimately, it’s 99% sure you’ll be right of course . We all know pretty much all managerial careers end in failure eventually - it’s just a case of whether it’s this month, this year or in 4 years time!) 

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

So you absolve LJ of any responsibility or blame ?

I’m not saying that. I don’t really know the answer to that because I don’t know enough about how roles, responsibilities, accountabilities and objectives were operated at the time.

But that’s not what this discussion was about. It was explicitly about what LJ achieved in terms of league position. I did acknowledge at the outset that there were legitimate challenges around the resources etc he had. 

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

But when you know the owner is desperate for you to succeed, its amazing how persuasive you can be - just one more player, that’s all I need.

And another.

And another.

It suited both LJ and MA…a “toxic” combo in some respects.

Until even SL had had enough.

Sure.

But ultimately it should have been MA (and SL) calling the shots there. The financial buck stopped with them.

And actually I don’t think it helped LJ one jot in the end. Too many options. 

3 minutes ago, MelksRed said:

Nor me - just stating fact. 

OK.

And I don’t disagree. I just wasn’t sure why it followed in response to a discussion about league positions under LJ.

Sure we were in a financial mess. But LJ hadn’t been in charge of the money. 

25 minutes ago, MelksRed said:

And the consequences of this were rectified by NP by reducing the inflated wage bill and cutting the drift wood free.... barely put of the woods

Yes, absolutely. I agree.

Covid didn’t help either, mind.

This isn’t some sort of LJ v NP thing - not in my mind anyway.

They had entirely different objectives.

LJ’s was league position.  Consolidation, then improvement, then in his last season, top 6. Others made the decision about how much money he got, not him. And we went shit for bust that last season (like plenty others did). Again, financially, not his decision. And for much of his tenure he succeeded: failed at the end with that last one. But that doesn’t negate the overall achievements over his tenure.

NP’s was entirely different. And yes, as you say, driven by financial imperatives, cutting costs, saving us from FFP consequences. Whilst treading water. And he did a great job. We put the books in order without ever really flirting with relegation - although a season when others had big points deductions helped!  His problem at the end of the day seems to have been maintaining relationships.

But the point is that they both had different jobs to do and both did decent enough jobs on the whole. 

14 minutes ago, Superjack said:

He's an idiot. 

Don't bite.

And the other problem I have is with reverting to name calling.

End of debate. 

24 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Yeah... because new owners wouldn't replace them, would they?

Talk about arguing for arguing's sake.

But who? Which owners? When? What would they do different? And the same for the DoF. And for the coaches..

It’s not arguing for the sake of it. It’s the fundamental problem I have with all this “sack everyone” stuff. It’s not a solution, it’s not an end in itself. You have to say what follows and how that makes it better. And then how you are so sure of that.

If it was a simple as just ‘sack everyone’ don’t you think everyone would be doing it? And it’s hardly worked for Watford! 

11 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Better than the number two he has brought. 

Just **** off the pair of them.

And Tinnion. 

And the Lansdowns. 

Just **** off everyone but the players and supporters, basically.

And then what?

No owners. No DoF. No coaches. Just some players and supporters.

Sounds like a recipe for great success to me

48 minutes ago, Superjack said:

People jokingly saying that he might return. 

It would be appalling. And so Lansdowns.

But actually... would it be worse than now?

That's as close as you will get to me ever liking the bloke.

What’s the phrase…..damned with faint praise

6 minutes ago, Superjack said:

And I have acknowledged that. 

I still don't think that he should ever have been appointed. 

But in his time here he flirted with relegation and the play offs. 

Didn't achieve either. 

Meh. 

(and I didn't mention the ridiculous war chest).

That’s fair enough: your view. I don’t have a particular view on the appointment: don’t really know what the objectives, alternatives etc were.

I think it’s also fair to say though that his flirtations with both were linear and evidence of the progress under him. He flirted with relegation early on, but latter end of his tenure was very much ‘top end’ (to coin a phrase )

No, he didn’t achieve it, and that’s what cost him his job - I’m pretty sure top 6 was the ultimatum that season.

(Well, you did mention it, but I think you got away with it ). 

11 minutes ago, Superjack said:

That is indeed a fact. 

But he didn't start much lower.

I think it was earlier today (long trip back from Ipswich!) that I characterised his tenure as taking us from a yo-yo L1/Champ club to an established mid table (maybe even top half) Champ club. I'm not talking about picking specific individual points in time (we can all prove anything that way!) just generally how the club is perceived. I think that's fair??

And I know you can argue about the resources he had, the opportunities he missed and so on - but at the end of the day he did that - and I feel that was significant and deserves acknowledgment.

9 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

To add some more context so it avoids looking like the intended purpose, Ipswich haven't been great at home of late. 

Just about beat Rotherham 4-3

It was 1-1 with Brum up til the 80th min

Got a late equaliser v West Brom

Lost to Maidstone

Beat Sunderland having been 1 nil down

Drew against QPR

Having looked at Ipswichs home record this season it certainly seems like it's been entertaining! Obviously I didn't go to any of those games and the only one I watched was the Maidstone game but considering their home record I call BS on claims we were the most well organised side there this season. 

We were organised until we wasn't. I personally don't get too excited about the fact we went to a newly promoted side away and shut up shop. It's a sad day when people are happy with that. 

Whilst you're trying to frame this as 'Ipswich fans think Manning is a tactical genius' did we really set up any differently to games such as Leicester and Leeds away? We simply played a system that this squad has played before LM was here so maybe its infact Mr Pearson that Ipswich fans would like? 

Just saying. 

Funnily enough, they mentioned some of those games. when we talked about how we'd struggled against sides like QPR and Cardiff. Even the top teams do. Funny old division, eh?!

As for the rest...don't shoot the messenger. Just saying what I heard - and I thought it might bring a bit of relief to the relentless negativity!

24 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Boom!

If this doesn't win the day, I don't know what does.

Johnson should never have been appointed. 

And yet...

And yet....he took us to the most consistently successful league position we've been in for 40 years.