italian dave

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, I’m into my “batches of shots”, and that you can only score once.  But I’m not making a point, and certainly not disagreeing with you either.  Merely adding info. 20th minute we had 4 shots from two back to back corners, then had 5 shots in final 5 minutes.  In the game we went also 17 mins plus 4 times in the game without a shot:

0-19

20-40

43-63 (h-t in between)

68-85

It just interests me.

Interesting, thanks Dave. You monitor these things far more assiduously than I do! I'm surprised none at all first 19.

The only time slot I've been watching recently is 45-60: we thankfully seem to have lost that habit of conceding then every week! Albeit Wednesday didn't need to, and Cardiff weren't too long after!

15 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

I haven’t taken the view that nothing Manning can do is right and I haven’t said that anywhere.

I’ve also on more than one occasion on these threads aired the opinion that LM came into a situation through no fault of his own that the fan base were going to judge him more harshly than previous managers have been judged.

Not because people have a reason to be any harsher on LM, but because of the board and their handling of the situation.

I cannot as yet see progression and in fact I can see regression particular in the body language and behaviour of the players on the pitch.

Things aren’t right and I don’t think I’m the only person to feel that way.

Do I want LM to fail and be sacked ?

No I don’t because that means Bristol City is failing and I have no reason to wish for LM to fail.

I completely agree that we should have our own opinions and it is good that we both have the opportunity to voice those opinions.

Fair enough!

And no you probably didn't! It was others crediting the TV, luck, NP etc that I started by responding to - you just came along with David Moyes' injury hit squad at the last minute!! Sorry!!

I try to look for positives. I agree that's been hard at times. I see change, which is always difficult (and suggesting it wasn't going to be was another foolish part of the Board's handling) and yesterday certainly frustration and draining confidence. 

I'm hoping for something more positive Tuesday - but not holding my breath!

COYR.

7 minutes ago, marmite said:

Leicester were odds on to romp to the title a month ago but look how quickly that's changed, and that's a team with a Prem squad!. 

We ain't out of the woods yet the way we are playing but even I think we will just make it.

Rule of thumb, you drop down a lot more dramatically when you lose at the top than you do at the bottom.

Although the Championship is a strange old place!

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think you can force the issue against these teams, if you’re brave enough to press as an intention rather than block.  Depends if you’re brave enough to accept being picked off.

”I want my players to be brave”

They're either ignoring you or they’re carrying out your cautious tactics. 

+++++

That little pep talk on last weeks Robins Uncut (10:05 onwards) felt like words, that nobody believed.  And true to it, “we’re not gonna waver on the work we do or the messages or how we treat you, that stays the same”…

 

…until I’m in a press conference after we’ve lost where I’m tell them that I can only do so much and it’s down to you.

 

I suggest there’s some trust issues coming out!  What if I’m brave and I stuff up?

@Sheltons Army this is what I was alluding to in the other thread.

 

Yep.

Still easier said than done against the Millwalls of this league!

And we did do it in little spells first half yesterday. I'd guess that's where a good proportion of our 17 shots came from - but never really troubled the keeper as I recall.

The other stuff - don't know Dave, maybe. Certainly seemed to be more finger pointing at each other yesterday, which may be a sign of that?

I guess the other issue, probably way beyond the scope of this thread, is that in LM we've gone for someone still learning their trade. That's a massive change from where we were. And without doubt debatable as to whether that's a sensible move. But we are where we are!

1 hour ago, sglosbcfc said:

Brilliant, love it. I guess in the States they all have giant 4x4 pickups to get to games.

1 hour ago, Back of the Dolman said:

And probably don’t go into hysteria and panic mode like we do here when we have a bit of snow

I was in Washington DC some years ago just after they’d had about 4 foot of snow come down.

They coped with it pretty effectively: the snow ploughs come out and shift it. The trouble is they shift everything on the road onto the pavement, which ends up under 8 foot of snow!

So, yes, you’re OK with a vehicle of any sort, not so good if you’re walking! But they don’t on the whole! 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

They kinda prove @IAmNick’s post above.

Those games are proving that attacking threat based on pressing and counterattacking is more effective than attacking from progressive build-up.

Scoring against unstructured defences is easier than scoring against structured defences.

 

 

That may be true, Dave, but it’s a lot harder to press and counter attack a side that’s determined to just sit back deep behind the ball a la Millwall for example. As Southampton themselves found only last week!

I think of the game up at QPR when not losing was the priority for both sides, and both sides simply sat back and invited the other to take the game to them, and neither did. At times it was almost like the last 10 minutes of that famous Coventry game!

Or the game at Birmingham: so intent were they on a 0-0 I swear Man City and Liverpool combined would have found it difficult to find a way through! 

We’ve struggled with it for some years now. At this level, plenty of other sides struggle with it too.

Our inability to stick the ball away doesn’t help. We had chances first 20 minutes yesterday. Thats when you need to score and force them to be more adventurous. Thats what we can’t do, and don’t seem to have been able to do for ages. 

1 hour ago, Back of the Dolman said:

So as you confirm rosy wasn’t a word used by me.

of course I enjoyed the Southampton victory but did I think things were rosy ? No, we beat Southampton playing the style of football that suits this squad of players ! We went back to basics and what works for us. And if LM was more flexible in doing that then I don’t think people would have such a low opinion of him.

I have family ties to West Ham so I couldn’t lose whoever won that game but of course I celebrated our victory but I saw the bigger picture and didn’t get carried away by it

I’m not aware I ever attributed the word ‘rosy’ to you. I didn’t realise I wasn’t allowed to use an adjective you’d not already used…sorry

I’m glad you enjoyed Southampton and can at least give LM some credit for using a style that day that suited the players!

Look: if you want to take the view that nothing Manning can do is right then that’s your prerogative. It’s your view and that’s fine with me.

I’m just saying I don’t agree. But maybe more to the point what I’m saying is that just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean that I take the polar opposite view and think that everything he does is right.

I don’t see the world in black and white like that. There are shades of grey for me. 

47 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Simple Fact Dave

we are 22nd out of 23 in the form table since Boxing Day

The only side worse

All but relegated Rotherham 

Time to wake up and open your eyes with due respect

 

I think you may be missing the context in quoting me here SA.

I’m not for one minute suggesting that those are reasons for or excuses for those poor results. 

I was responding to posts that used West Ham’s injuries and some good fortune at Boro to argue that we didn’t deserve credit for those results.

If anything, I’m probably in alignment with you - those shouldn’t hide the problems - but equally you can’t have it both ways and dismiss our successes for the same reason. 

5 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

Don’t think I’ve made any reference to anything being rosy.

I’m solely judging LM on his time here, I’m not comparing him to any previous manager/s that we’ve had.

I’m judging it on him and him only and I can’t see any rosy points at the moment 

Rosy was a word used by another poster but as part of this discussion. It seemed like a good way of summing up some positives in one word.

So, going back to the OP - you don't think Southampton was rosy? You didn't enjoy that win, or think we played well?

And beating West Ham - you didn't think that was rosy?

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Norwich were not in a good place when we played them. Not at all- many of their fans wanted Wagner out. Check a few metrics ie their form from Game 5 to the game which saw them win at AG. Some of their away ones were awful as well.

To lose that, in the way that we did was a shocker.

Southampton Away yeah performance fine.

Leeds at Home, same result but performance and cohesion very much missing.

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Leeds.

Leeds was poor, but I think we were just punch drunk.

It reminded me a bit of a game against Bournemouth a few years back when Bournemouth were in one of their Championship stints between the PL. And even their fans were saying that they played better that night against us than they'd done any time the previous season in the PL!!

Leeds were just outstanding that night. And, yes, still not sure how it ended only 0-1! I could suggest we did well to keep it down to that - but I won't push my luck 

2 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

Well if you think it was down to Mannings coaching brilliance  that we beat West Ham then I’d suggest he starts showing that brilliance against the teams below us in this division!

I don't think it was down to Manning's coaching brilliance. I think it was down to a combination of factors. His coaching, his management of players, some resolute defending, West Ham's depleted squad, a bit of luck with a poor back pass, and any number more things that would probably fill the page.

And that's true of pretty much every game we play - there's a combination of factors that determine the final outcome.

My view is that some of those - the good, the rosy, the less good, the bad - are down to Manning. And that some of them - good, rosy, not so good, bad - are down to other factors.

Your view seems to be that everything bad or not so good is down to Manning and that everything rosy is down to something or someone else. 

That's where we disagree. 

4 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

You just replied to Lenred about coming up with what ifs and now you’re doing it.

At the end of the day all teams suffer injuries, referee decisions go for them and against them and has a bit of luck going for them and against them.

You have to take each match as it comes and deal with what happens in match in the day.

LM seems incapable of making any changes during a game that show any signs of changing the course of a match

Of course I'm doing it!! I'm doing it precisely to make that point!!

Yes, every single thing you've said in this post you could say about the West Ham game. yet when it come to that game, the fact that we drew and then won is - according to you - all down to injuries and nothing to do with Manning.

3 minutes ago, petehinton said:

Forest where we again created nothing, West Ham good against a side who didn’t want to be out there, Coventry good, Watford & Hull, really? Extremely average again. 
 

Those who says everything is rosy because we were excellent against Saints (which we were), must have their heads explode when they find out Nathan Jones’ Southampton beat Man City last season. 

Watford away - yes.

I'm not sure there's anyone saying that everything is rosy, Pete. On this thread at least, simply challenging the proposition that everything bad is down to Manning and everything rosy is down to something or someone else. 

5 minutes ago, Back of the Dolman said:

So you think we’d of beaten a full strength West Ham that night ?

I also don’t think it’s so much about the inconsistency, it’s about the manner of the defeats and the style of football that’s going with it.

I want to feel like the manager/head coach actually cares and has some fire in his belly and LM gives none of that even by his own admission.

I think many of us liked the spirit and work ethic of this squad even if it didn’t bring success as it looked like they cared as we do, but sadly that now seems to be on the wane.

we excused some of the lack of ability because they showed heart but now I see no player who’s showing any greater technical ability but the spirit seems shot 

Quite possibly not. Who knows? But I also think we'd have been much more likely to have won at least one of the last three if we'd had Twine and Sykes and Bell fit. 

1 minute ago, lenred said:

So you’re disagreeing that West Ham had all of their best players playing?

Of course I'm not. But you can come up with "what if"s  about every single game if you want to.

What if we'd been given that penalty shout yesterday, or not had the goal disallowed at the end. What if Wednesday had had the red card they should have early on, and if we'd been given the clear handball pen near the end. What if Twine hadn't got injured. What if Sykes had stayed fit. I could go on.

Pretty much every single game that gets played will have reasons someone can point to why something might have been different. And if you want to you can pick every single one that's a reason to slate Manning, and ignore every single one doesn't fit that agenda. 

10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If we list out the games where we were crap it’s a longer list……..if we ignore cup games that win you sod all points he’s done very poorly with a squad that shouldn’t be looking over it’s shoulders at this point of the season.

That maybe so. But it's not the point I'm making. Which is that there are more than just two games where we've had a good result and/or performance.

We're inconsistent. As we have been for several years now. We have crap games. We have good games. We have in between games.

It's just this black and white everything Maning does is bad, every failure is his, any success is due to something else - TV, NP's legacy or whatever that I find nonsensical. 

Edit - and add David Moyes to the list of 'other reasons' from @Back of the Dolman 

2 minutes ago, One Team said:

I think Southampton and Boro were the blip in our performances and results. Everything else before and after is the Manning norm.

And Forest. And West Ham. And Coventry. And Watford. And Hull. And Boro at home. All blips?

1 minute ago, Loosey Boy said:

The decision to have him playing on the left became even more bizarre when Mehmeti was brought on……

Talk about playing people in their best positions!

I thought that was odd too. First half I could understand to a point: limited options with Bell out. But when Mehmeti came on I assumed they’d switch. 

8 minutes ago, tin said:

The football under Wilson and Cotts was the closest to “front-foot football” we’ve seen under all those managers. And it’s no coincidence that they had control of recruitment during those times. 

The model Ashton built post-Cotts remains in place today. It imposes restraints on managers and sets the club up to fail IMO. As Harry said yesterday, that needs to be ripped up.

As for Manning, he isn’t right for us and the issue with sacking him is I don’t trust BT or JL to get it right. Therein lies the problem, and it’s a big un. 

Also no coincidence those two achieved that almost entirely in the third tier?

Im not disagreeing with you or Harry on the model, far from it, but it’s a lot easier, whoever is in charge of recruitment, when you’re the big fish in the pond and can go out and buy the proven best at that level. 

18 minutes ago, TDarwall said:

I think there is genius at work; we can't beat teams below in the league, but do better against teams above us. The deeper we plummet our chances of playing someone below us gets less all the time.

Even that’s not really working though! The weird thing is that we never seem to ‘plummet’: we just gravitate to 14th! Even after three straight defeats: it looked odds on we’d be there again when Middlesbrough picked up at least a point at Stoke - and they lost so we’re still 13th!! 

17 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

He wasn't great on the whole but that's a tad harsh considering he got us to a whisker of the play-offs and to the semi-finals of the Carabao Cup, beating Man United and giving Man City two good games along the way

And, in league terms, got us to the position of being an established second tier club - for the first time in decades. 

Personally, I’d put Lee Johnson above Danny Wilson in my list of successful appointments. 

Just my opinion: yours is clearly different - @AshtonGreat has already noted the emotive language but I’d suggest your use of his stats is even more indicative of a degree of bias!

Why quote his win ratio at other clubs, when he managed us?!! His win ratio with us, at “2nd Division” level was 39%. Gary (who’s on your list) achieved 40% - and had the benefit of a couple of seasons in the third division as part of that. 

@westonred, I’d completely echo what @GrahamC said above, but at the same time, don’t make that decision in anger after three defeats and cut off your nose to spite your face.

I had a cancer scare years ago, and for me going to the football, going to watch City, was massively important. It gave me some normality, something to hang onto, and just an outlet once or twice a week to forget everything else.

I honestly can’t remember whether we were doing well or badly at the time. It didn’t really matter. Just don’t let that get to you. It’s about more than the 90 minutes on the pitch anyway. And even that just enjoy as a game of football, supporting your team. We all know that being a football fan is mostly about disappointment, and that that’s what makes the occasional successes so special.

But whatever you decide, all the best.

19 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Dave

I have great respect for you as someone who clearly travels as many miles as probably anyone who supports the Club.

But you don’t like any whiff of criticism , (Although you weren’t so supportive of NP) and sorry , but if the Club served up a s**t sandwich for you , you would point out that it at least came with salad

Actually, I’ve been very critical of the catering this season

I’ve no problem with criticism. I’ve been critical of the way the departure of NP was handled. I’ve been critical of decisions that both NP and LM have made.

But I’m always supportive of whoever is in charge of the team because I believe they want what’s best for the club, I want them to succeed, and I always hope (sometimes against hope) that they’ll turn the corner and find that success.

And that was the case as much for NP as for anyone else. You won’t find any posts from me that were unduly critical of him, or that called for him to be sacked. I still believe that he did a fantastic job of rescuing us from a financial mess without us ever really looking relegation candidates.

I’m as disappointed as anyone with the last three games. It gives me the same doubts as others about our direction. But what I don’t agree with is the vitriolic pile on that happened in the hour or two after the game today.

And what I’ve always struggled with is the knee jerk ‘sack xxx’ without any positive suggestion for what we do to make things better. It’s always easy to shout ‘get rid of xxx’, change xx, but without a plan that will demonstrably improve things it’s just pure negativity. And help no-one, least of all the person currently charged with taking the club forward. 

10 minutes ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

Maybe, just maybe Mark Ashton’s Ipswich Town can finally out the nail in the coffin(s) of Manning and Tinnion. 
 

A drubbing on Tuesday (which is probably likely given their current form vs ours) would surely be the end for LM. 
 

season tickets have to come out soon, the fan base is in a horrendous space. 
 

Maybe Mark comes to our saviour! 

Sounds to me like you actually want us to lose?