Right For The Team But Not The Dressing Room?

[headhunter]

In a conversation at the weekend a fellow City fan of some 40 years [like myself] commented in response to my continuing gripes about GJ, "...who would you want as manager then who could do a better job?". In all honesty I could not think of anyone who was not flawed in some way.

My main gripe over GJ was epitomised by yesterday's transfer of Berbatov from Spurs - this talented forward has clearly been a 'bad egg' in the dressing room at Spurs but that did not stop Sir Alex bringing him into the fold at Man Utd. because he feels that the guy will bring to the team what even they seem to be lacking at this present time. It is worth noting that back in 1992 Fergie made a similar signing by bringing in the mercurial Eric Cantona and, as they say, the rest is history.

Good management is often about dealing with difficult people and this is where I think GJ falls down. I wasn't gutted when Messrs. Phillips and Stewart left but clearly they had issues with our man. Carle too I believe left for non-footballing reasons.

At the start of this year we were in a very strong position to go up. No-one can deny that the lack of goals cost us automatic promotion but our manager did not want to disrupt the dressing room spirit that had "....got us to where we are".

Sorry GJ but you must manage that situation - that's what you get paid for.

The same "... show respect to the players" has been put forward for a lack of credible action in the transfer window this time which saw us sign a 19 year old with promise [how would you feel right now if you were Myrie-Williams or Plummer?].

Since our Wembley final transfers out and injuries see us undeniably having a weaker squad than 4 months ago. 14000 season ticket holders showed their faith in a club that we all hoped would step up a level. The signing of Maynard is to be praised but where is the real replacment for Carle?

The harbingers of doom are already hovvering above Maynard in terms of his efforts to date but you can't score goals if the chances aren't being created so that puts a question over the midfield which is crying out for a Ben Watson or similar. And that brings me on to my final point - Lee Johnson, a good little player yes but we're in the Championship now and, in my opinion, his position should not be untouchable just because his father is the manager.

There's no denying the strides this club has made forward this past three years and we were probably 'spoilt' by the success of last season, but the greatest challenge for GJ ahead of him as he has to take the club to the next level and that will involve managing talented players who will, in the main, be difficult people with attitude.

Yes, we could build a Wimbledon style 'club' atmosphere but that worked in the 80's and football has come on a long way since then.

[Seend Red]

There's no denying the strides this club has made forward this past three years and we were probably 'spoilt' by the success of last season, but the greatest challenge for GJ ahead of him as he has to take the club to the next level and that will involve managing talented players who will, in the main, be difficult people with attitude.

So true.

Hard work and organisation will take you so far, but at some point if you have real ambition to reach the top you will have to deal with difficult characters who may have exceptional ability to play the game.

Johnson can not keep playing safe and put the personality of a player before ability.

[Byrd9999]

McIndoe said the Dressing Room spirit that GJ has instilled at the club is worth an extra 10-12 points a season.

However, a team with basically an unlimited budget (Man U, Chelsea, etc...) can get those 10-12 extra points by spending millions.

BCFC have to stick to a sensible fiscal plan to avoid turning into Leeds, Coventry etc.... Team spirit will allow teams like BCFC to compete. Do Wigan or Reading (our supposed role models) have troublesome Berbatovs or Cantonas?

Personally, I like the fact that GJ will reject a player at the last minute (Meteb, Mifsud, Easter) for being a fool. I wish more managers had his integrity.

It's only a game.

[WesM]

A decent. well-thought out post with a valid point that should make some interesting debate.......until this bit.

And that brings me on to my final point - Lee Johnson, a good little player yes but we're in the Championship now and, in my opinion, his position should not be untouchable just because his father is the manager.

Do people not get bored of this?

Shame really.

Only to be expected. You question GJ ability over his management of 'star' players yet I applaud the 'prevention is better than cure' approach. You only need to look at White Hart Lane to see the damage that can be done by a moody primadonna. Cantona and Berbatov are world class players and sometimes players of this calibre come with world class ego's. But we are not in the market for world class players. We are in a market where decent championship players, whilst not 2 a penny, are more readily available. So why would GJ risk upsetting club harmony and make work for himself by signing a Jermaine Easter type of player, when a Nicky Maynard type of player is available??

[Riaz]

Fergie (and GJ would I'm sure) will make exceptions for 'special' players.... but you don't get 'special' players at this level!!

[Redhyde]

My main gripe over GJ was epitomised by yesterday's transfer of Berbatov from Spurs - this talented forward has clearly been a 'bad egg' in the dressing room at Spurs but that did not stop Sir Alex bringing him into the fold at Man Utd. because he feels that the guy will bring to the team what even they seem to be lacking at this present time. It is worth noting that back in 1992 Fergie made a similar signing by bringing in the mercurial Eric Cantona and, as they say, the rest is history.

Dimitar Berbatov started being a bad egg..when United tapped him up. He wasn't a problem before.

At the start of this year we were in a very strong position to go up. No-one can deny that the lack of goals cost us automatic promotion but our manager did not want to disrupt the dressing room spirit that had "....got us to where we are".

Sorry GJ but you must manage that situation - that's what you get paid for.

Actually i believe he gets paid to manage our football club to an acceptable position according to the chairman. Were you not happy with 4th? Are you not happy with us being 4th again, unbeaten with the best defensive record..at 2 points a game?

The same "... show respect to the players" has been put forward for a lack of credible action in the transfer window this time which saw us sign a 19 year old with promise [how would you feel right now if you were Myrie-Williams or Plummer?].

You'd realise the player brought in plays in a different position. Does it matter there was a lack of action if we perform? We're performing.

Since our Wembley final transfers out and injuries see us undeniably having a weaker squad than 4 months ago. 14000 season ticket holders showed their faith in a club that we all hoped would step up a level. The signing of Maynard is to be praised but where is the real replacment for Carle?

Did we need to replace Carle? And Williams is the first team replacement but not a direct replacement. He'll play centre if LJ isn't there (as Carle did) and actually better than Carle he has another position he can play in! How did we do BEFORE Carle was here..what did we do for the first half of the season? How much did Carle improve us? When Nick Carle signed we were 3rd...

The harbingers of doom are already hovvering above Maynard in terms of his efforts to date but you can't score goals if the chances aren't being created so that puts a question over the midfield which is crying out for a Ben Watson or similar. And that brings me on to my final point - Lee Johnson, a good little player yes but we're in the Championship now and, in my opinion, his position should not be untouchable just because his father is the manager.

Maynard has had chances. You're confusing hasn't had chances..with missing them. He didn't miss an open goal, he didn't have a shot off the line?

There's no denying the strides this club has made forward this past three years and we were probably 'spoilt' by the success of last season, but the greatest challenge for GJ ahead of him as he has to take the club to the next level and that will involve managing talented players who will, in the main, be difficult people with attitude.

Yes, we could build a Wimbledon style 'club' atmosphere but that worked in the 80's and football has come on a long way since then.

GJ does manage talented players. He just gets ones with the right attitude too. There is no necessity to have problematic players in the changing room. You could easily pick a world class team full of nice good honest professional players.

Moaning for the sake of it.

[garlicbread]

Surely the fact that he inherited a clique of players with a heavy drinking culture and turned it around, suggests that he can develop players with bad attitudes.

Heck, he had players who holidayed with Her Maj because they went around using their fists. He sorted them out (barring the welsh lost cause) into established, hard working and valuble assets to this club.

In Johnson I trust.

[Riaz]

Surely the fact that he inherited a clique of players with a heavy drinking culture and turned it around, suggests that he can develop players with bad attitudes.

Heck, he had players who holidayed with Her Maj because they went around using their fists. He sorted them out (barring the welsh lost cause) into established, hard working and valuble assets to this club.

In Johnson I trust.

Well said.

Garlic Bread - its the future!

[windmillhillred]

This is simply not true in any case - McIndoe didn't have a reputation as an angel, neither did Sproule.

[GrahamC]

This is simply not true in any case - McIndoe didn't have a reputation as an angel, neither did Sproule.

Surely that depends on how you define "reputation"? As far as I'm aware McIndoe's previous was all about not hanging round anywhere for very long and Sproule simply seemed to have become a marked man with refs in the goldfish bowl that is the SPL, picking up most of his red and yellow cards, surprise, surprise, against the Old Firm.

During their time with us Sproule appears a family man and McIndoe's only obvious unusual attribute is that he speaks his mind to the press, resulting in some articulate and original statements.

Neither of them exactly had any Craig Bellamy, Lee Bowyer type baggage, did they?

[trundle wheel]

GJ has consistently improved the squad over the last 3 years. We are not in a position where we can go and buy all the best players around yet, so we do it slowly.

There are many teams in this division who have purchased more expensive players with pedigree and are not performing successfully. Not only are we over-performing, but we are doing so and still improving and ambitious- IMO

[Red_Mat]

And that brings me on to my final point - Lee Johnson, a good little player yes but we're in the Championship now and, in my opinion, his position should not be untouchable just because his father is the manager.

This particular point got to me most. You immediately link LJ with his dad, and therefore your argument falls down as accusing someone of nepotism - which I cannot believe is the case with a manager as strong as GJ. I believe his reason's for continually selecting LJ are to do with the fact we do not have a player with his quality of long-range passing and dead-ball situations in the entire squad. Essentials on the football pitch in the way we play.

Unfortunately, your point gives a bad name to people who have genuine concerns about LJ's contribution for other reasons, not the nepotism. My own personal feelings are that LJ is too inconsistent and that he gives the ball away far too much both going forward and defending, and does not track back often enough. Central midfield is such a crucial position as everything flows through there that we cannot afford to be too light there and at times this has been the case with LJ in the side. This is not a criticism of him as a person, just an observation of abilities and the need for him to improve if he wishes to continue there. Otherwise, we need an alternative.

However, your argument's were generally flawed throughout, not only this one. GJ does take on people he believes he can work with no matter what their reputation was before. McIndoe and Williams were people he knew and believed he could work with, despite issues with them at other clubs. Orr and Brooker also showed they had difficulties, but unlike Phillips, Stewart, Partridge and the rest, they took their opportunities to reform and prove themselves.

GJ gives new player's a thorough interview, as well as speaking to former team-mates, coaches, managers, etc, and I believe if he came across a 'Cantona'-type figure who could take us forward and contribute to the dressing room, I'm sure he would give him the opportunity.

[lukejones2]

However, your argument's were generally flawed throughout, not only this one. GJ does take on people he believes he can work with no matter what their reputation was before. McIndoe and Williams were people he knew and believed he could work with, despite issues with them at other clubs. Orr and Brooker also showed they had difficulties, but unlike Phillips, Stewart, Partridge and the rest, they took their opportunities to reform and prove themselves.

GJ gives new player's a thorough interview, as well as speaking to former team-mates, coaches, managers, etc, and I believe if he came across a 'Cantona'-type figure who could take us forward and contribute to the dressing room, I'm sure he would give him the opportunity.

The original arguments are totally flawed - not least becuase Sir Alex didn't look at Cantona and say "here's a player that will disrupt things but to hell with it, come on in Eric because you're talented..." He spoke to him, decided he could work with him and that he would be a positive influence in the dressing room, and signed him because of his talent/personality.

He turned out to be all that Sir Alex had hoped for, albeit with a few disciplinary issues on the pitch (something GJ - in Sproule - did not shy away from).

[PhatWill]

I think I disagree with just about everything in the original post.

McIndoe, Trundle and G Williams all have some history of being 'bad eggs' and GJ doesn't seem to have had problems signing/managing them.

This all seems to hark back to the Mifsud/Meteb transfers anyway.

[Red_Mat]

The original arguments are totally flawed - not least becuase Sir Alex didn't look at Cantona and say "here's a player that will disrupt things but to hell with it, come on in Eric because you're talented..." He spoke to him, decided he could work with him and that he would be a positive influence in the dressing room, and signed him because of his talent/personality.

He turned out to be all that Sir Alex had hoped for, albeit with a few disciplinary issues on the pitch (something GJ - in Sproule - did not shy away from).

Exactly the point I was making - though, perhaps you have made it slightly more lucidly.

GJ 'interviews' his candidates as well, and finds the right people. Everybody is far from perfect, and all footballers will have flaws, but AF could see Cantona was an ambitious and talented player that would raise the quality within the squad.

There are a lot of similarities between GJ and AF and the way in which they deal with their players.

[Lack of Action Man]

My old man says that Gary is one of these people who because he is the manager he has to command the respect out of his players. Therefore he can't have anyone in the dressing room who would be a big personality or someone who would purposely disturb how Gary wants the team to be run. I think at the moment we have great spirit and that surely has to be down to the way Gary organizes and motivates the players

[CiderHider]

My main gripe over GJ was epitomised by yesterday's transfer of Berbatov from Spurs - this talented forward has clearly been a 'bad egg' in the dressing room at Spurs but that did not stop Sir Alex bringing him into the fold at Man Utd.

Thats because he wanted to join Utd, not because he was a bad egg.

Good management is often about dealing with difficult people and this is where I think GJ falls down.

I think that's utter nonsense, Gary has turned this club around 360 deg making some very difficult decisions often initially going against the fans, but Johnsons ability to identify and boot out the dead wood was remarkable and made him stand out for this attribute, how can you say this is where he falls down? thats weirdness.

There has been excellent stability in the dressing room and its all down to Johnson, don't assume that because we don't see arguments every day that GJ is too afraid to bring in 'difficult' players. He simply brings in the correct players, why the hell would you bring in an idiot when you can bring in someone who is not?

[sunningdalered]

The likes of ferguson, benitez, mourhino (remember him - and count his predecessor in as well) etc etc can afford to make mistakes - sometimes very big and expensive ones. We, and more specifically GJ, does not have that luxury - he cannot take a punt on a joey barton or craig bellamy type - city don't have that sort of money to lose if it all goes pear. I would suggest that Nicky M, and probably emad were about as racey a risk as GJ would want to take.

On balance I think GJ is doing a pretty good job of moving the club forward - maybe your impatience is getting the better of you.

THERE IS NO NEPOTISM AT CITY - end of.

[BristolCity1992]

Forgot about Trundles **** Off Cardiff comments then?

Good post but not one that I agree with really there is only one man to take City forward and his name is Gary Johnson just look how far those that he has rejected have gone since.

[Geoff65]

A lot has been said already but re the replacement for Carle - it appeared to me that we took on Carle as the one to play in the hole as at the time Noble who had suceeded previously hadnt been delivering the required chances and goals - with that in mind he brought Carle in to play in the 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 that we were having the most joy with. LJ got injured and Carle came into replace him and did a fine job and got rave reviews but was still in the side that gave so many unsatisfactory results in the last 10 games until Noble came in and played in the right of midfield - once he found that position we turned a really awful chain of results - Carle gets the credit but Noble was the influence. Fast forward to this season and we are playing 4-4-2 and the job of playing in the hole is redundant and thus Carle was allowed to leave.

Why was Carle allowed to leave - we don't know but an good offer came in for him and not LJ and had the same offer came in for LJ and not Carle - who is to say that LJ wouldnt have been allowed to leave and Carle would be playing that role now. The fact of the matter is Carle was the one we had the bid for and we took it.

Direct replacement for Carle? - for which position, is the question - do we replace him for someone who plays in the hole - we got Noble who can do that and Williams who looks like he could do it too. Do we replace him for someone in the middle - well the answer to that is he would have had to be better than LJ to be replaced and all indications are that Carle and LJ were of equal talent but the results seem to go with LJ (if you accept that the reason we got to play offs is more down to Noble than the influence of Carle). Perhaps with a midfield choice from Elliott,LJ,Cole.Williams,Murray,Sproule,Noble and Artus he felt that we got sufficient cover for midfield and wanted to spend his money elsewhere.

[Antman]

Scale of the club.

Those who remember Mr R Osman, might recall the insidious manner in which he infiltrated the dressing room, sowed discontent, ousted the manager, then his caretaker co-managers, to finally get his grubby mitts on the job himself. Whereupon he totally wrecked the club! BCFC couldn't stop him!!

The point being Manure are able to take on troublesome players because the sheer size of the club, means no one can realistically rock the boat. Players will want to be fringe players at Man U, happy to be associated with the success they know they will get. not playing but prepared to take home £50K per week. We are not capable of dealing with players in the same way.

Recall last season when all the talk was of GJ not wanting 'flair' players. he then brought in Trundle, Sproule, & McCindoe and it seems to have been ok (!)

Stewart was hopeless, lets face it. doomed to failure and yup, that happens - bad call, move 'em on.

we need to have a disciplined and taut dressing room, and an entire coaching staff that can keep the influence that is needed to move the club on.

I think at the moment we have that.

[mozo]

People said he was wrong about Stewart, Phillips and Bridges - look what happened to those so-called talents.

People said he wouldn't sign a player with a name - Lee Trundle signs with WAG in tow.

People said his loan signings were bad - then hailed Fontaine as a hero, and wanted Vasko back.

People said he wouldn't sign competition for Lee Johnson - Nick Carle signed.

People said he wouldn't give youngsters a chance - Ribeiro gets his chance.

People said he wouldn't sign a natural goalscorer - he spends a record fee on the most highly rated prospect available.

Gary Johnson has brought in respectability, promotion, team spirit, attendances, attacking football, wingers, strength in depth, a solid defence, a sense of humour, the attention of the media...and much more.

No one's perfect, but Johnson is such a good boss, that you cut him plenty of slack.

[windmillhillred]

I think I disagree with just about everything in the original post.

McIndoe, Trundle and G Williams all have some history of being 'bad eggs' and GJ doesn't seem to have had problems signing/managing them.

This all seems to hark back to the Mifsud/Meteb transfers anyway.

Yes, forgot about Williams. When he left, Magilton essentially said what a #### he was. Clearly GJ does not think the same.

[bully]

People said he was wrong about Stewart, Phillips and Bridges - look what happened to those so-called talents.

People said he wouldn't sign a player with a name - Lee Trundle signs with WAG in tow.

People said his loan signings were bad - then hailed Fontaine as a hero, and wanted Vasko back.

People said he wouldn't sign competition for Lee Johnson - Nick Carle signed.

People said he wouldn't give youngsters a chance - Ribeiro gets his chance.

People said he wouldn't sign a natural goalscorer - he spends a record fee on the most highly rated prospect available.

Gary Johnson has brought in respectability, promotion, team spirit, attendances, attacking football, wingers, strength in depth, a solid defence, a sense of humour, the attention of the media...and much more.

No one's perfect, but Johnson is such a good boss, that you cut him plenty of slack.

I think GJ gets plenty of slack from almost everyone on this forum because of everything you say.

I don't think he'd agree that Nick Carle was competition for LJ though...

[Godzilla]

I think GJ gets plenty of slack from almost everyone on this forum because of everything you say.

I don't think he'd agree that Nick Carle was competition for LJ though...

Maybe, but because of Carle Gary decided to leave his son on the bench for the biggest match of his life.

We all have our opinions on different players etc. But if you're going to look at the whole thing from a results perspective, since Lee has come to the club our win ratio has been incredible, especially considering we've gone up a division in that time.

Our worst spell in this time was at the tail end of last season, and co-incided with Lee being injured. Was it down to Lee that we got promoted? Or was it his absence that cost us promotion? We'll never know, but those facts don't lie. It's a results game.

Carle proved with his performances in the last 4 games or so of last season (and it was actually no more than that, and his foul in the P/O semi almost cost us a Wembley visit!) that Lee was not irreplaceable, and so it proved as Gary left him out of the play-off final. But it was actually a below-par performance from Nick in that very final that contributed to a rather flat team display.

Gary Johnson has been the best manager this club has ever seen. He's completely changed the mentality of the entire club. We've gone from an average/below-average League One side when he took over (let's be realistic, that is the state Tinnion left us in) to a club fast becoming a Championship heavy-weight. We don't have the biggest ground, or the most fans, or the most money or history. But we're one of the best teams in this division and one of the best run clubs.

Nobody's perfect and Gary will make mistakes. But he makes more right decisions than wrong and if he left tomorrow we'd be a far weaker club without him.

[Seend Red]

Maybe, but because of Carle Gary decided to leave his son on the bench for the biggest match of his life.

Let be honest! Johnsons hand was forced on this issue, whilst LJ was out injured Carle played very well including the play-off semi's against Palace, Carle had become undropable, he wasn't going to drop our best midfilder Elliott either so there was little other option than to start junior on the bench. And lets not forget Lee still got 45 minutes.

Lee has come to the club our win ratio has been incredible, especially considering we've gone up a division in that time.

For you to suggest LJ is the catalist behind our success leaves me dumbfounded.

Our worst spell in this time was at the tail end of last season, and co-incided with Lee being injured. Was it down to Lee that we got promoted? Or was it his absence that cost us promotion? We'll never know, but those facts don't lie. It's a results game.

Or did they bottle it? I feel it was no coinincidence after Johnson started stating how many point were required to secure automatic promotion it all went tits up.

Gary Johnson has been the best manager this club has ever seen.

Why not Alan Dicks? He took us to the very top.

[Godzilla]

Let be honest! Johnsons hand was forced on this issue, whilst LJ was out injured Carle played very well including the play-off semi's against Palace, Carle had become undropable, he wasn't going to drop our best midfilder Elliott either so there was little other option than to start junior on the bench. And lets not forget Lee still got 45 minutes.

Gary Johnson is the manager and doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to. If he is so determined to play his son constantly, as he is according to some, surely he would've found a way to include him? Particularly for a game of such magnitude?

For you to suggest LJ is the catalist behind our success leaves me dumbfounded.

I don't. If you read my post through you'll see that later I question how much of our success is to do with him. Because, of course, that is something that's entirely subjective! In the same way many believed we almost went up inspite of Wilson, not because of him! However, what I said is true, our win ratio has been superb since he joined the club. We have done extremely well with him in the team. Which part of that do you have a problem with?

Or did they bottle it? I feel it was no coinincidence after Johnson started stating how many point were required to secure automatic promotion it all went tits up.

That is also a more than fair suggestion and in many of those games we did look extremely nervy and didn't step up. Of course, Lee Johnson came back and played in the awful performance at Southampton. A performance which was arguably our worst all season! I was simply laying down the facts, and again I questioned whether it really was Johnson's absence or whether it was a co-incidence. In my opinion it was a combination of Johnson missing and, as you rightly pointed out, us getting nervy at the crucial point. Which part of that do you have a problem with?

Why not Alan Dicks? He took us to the very top.

And then took us back down again. The instant success Johnson has brought is remarkable enough, but it's not just a 'success' factor. The mentality of the entire club has changed (though perhaps not of many fans); it's become more proffessional, it's become more positive and with a new training ground and stadium to come, we're really not a million miles away from being ready for Premier League football. And this at a time when the gap between the top league and the other leagues is now wider than ever. That success is down to a whole load of different people... But Johnson has been indispensible. That's not to say it won't all go wrong for him too though!

[windmillhillred]

There was little other option than to start junior on the bench. And lets not forget Lee still got 45 minutes.

This is what really annoys me about the Johnson argument. Why 'junior' - why not 'Lee'? It brings in a completely unnecessary and pathetic accusation of nepotism. Oh, and he got 45 minutes because - and only because - Orr was injured. Simple really.

[Seend Red]

This is what really annoys me about the Johnson argument. Why 'junior' - why not 'Lee'? It brings in a completely unnecessary and pathetic accusation of nepotism. Oh, and he got 45 minutes because - and only because - Orr was injured. Simple really.

Tad sentitive aren't we....Lee, Johnson, Junior, midget, dwarf, leprechaun, dwarf, homunculus, miniaure, munchkin, pygmy, small, tiny,elf,sprite...........does it really matter! you know who I mean you old woman

And to your second point a central midfielder for a right back?

[windmillhillred]

Tad sentitive aren't we....Lee, Johnson, Junior, midget, dwarf, leprechaun, dwarf, homunculus, miniaure, munchkin, pygmy, small, tiny,elf,sprite...........does it really matter! you know who I mean you old woman

And to your second point a central midfielder for a right back?

Not at all sensitive, just think the constant slagging off of one of our own players is bad enough without bringing in to question Johnson's integrity, which is what suggestions of nepotism do.

And on the second point, Elliott had experience at right back for Millwall; the alternative was moving Carey to right-back - in a position in which he never excelled, and bringing Vasko in at centre back - completely disrupting our defensive line. And, he probably wanted to go for the more creative option (please don't start) given we were one down.