Johnson Cost Us The Points

[tin]

Tonight was not the night for experimenting. Here we were against one of the best sides in the league, who will be in the top four at the very least, and yet we take the field in an unfamiliar 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation. What the f***?

Combine that with our only left winger being instructed to play narrowly down the right side and our record signing playing, not in his rightful position of a striker, but on the left frigging wing! Again, what the f***?

It wasn't until both goals were conceded did the penny finally drop that this wasn't working but it would never have worked! Anyone could've told you that!

We had time in pre-season and the Carling Cup to fart arse around with formation and various players in different roles but tonight was surely a time to be solid, pick square pegs in square holes and make it difficult for the opposition to break us down.

Sadly, I don't think Birmingham even got out of second gear tonight and it wasn't until the reshuffle that we gained any kind of momentum and got back into the game. As good a goal as Trundle's was, it was far too little too late.

I just hope Sir Gary has learnt a valuable tactical lesson tonight otherwise we will be a long, long way off top six this season. Harsh but true.

[petehinton]

Wingers need a bloody good seeing too

they seem to thing CM and LW/RW are the same effing position !!

[robins72]

It does frustrate me when we play so narrow in the first half. Brum were running so easily through our midfield in the first half. When we introduced Sproule for Williams(who should be playing in the centre of midfield!) we provided much more of an attacking option along the wing. Why have we not learnt from the qpr game??We need to start with the same team that finished tonight against Doncaster so that we can make the start that we finished tonight.

[Ron]

Do you think that Gary asked McIndoe to play in the middle giving us no width on the left? No. Either that or he is as quick as you are.

Everything else can be answered from that.

Macca has got too big for his boots recently, in the first half against Cardiff he was useless, and it wasn't until the 50-60 minute mark today he started to influence the game, and even then he couldn't decide on where to play. He is not looking the same McIndoe who gave 110% every game and flew down the left wing last season.

[Pooki]

Couldn't agree more with original poster , it was clear to see that we were one dimensional and were being ripped apart down the flanks ..you could even see Carsley gesturing to the wide men to stay out there at times , every time they broke we were in trouble , the thing that amazed me most was to see that Johnson could see what was going on and didnt try to change things when anyone could see that we were getting torn to shreds

[westred1]

Brum had so much space down the right hand side in the first half because of McIndoe drifting to far inside. I've never seen a winger not stay on the wing as much as he does! Surely he doesn't want to play like this and it has to be Johnson's instructions to play narrow? Maybe, as Elliott is out, Johnson has said to play narrow to make up for the loss of Elliott. Perhaps it will all be different when he comes back in the team!

In GJ we trust!

[tin]

It does frustrate me when we play so narrow in the first half. Brum were running so easily through our midfield in the first half. When we introduced Sproule for Williams(who should be playing in the centre of midfield!) we provided much more of an attacking option along the wing. Why have we not learnt from the qpr game??We need to start with the same team that finished tonight against Doncaster so that we can make the start that we finished tonight.

The thing that gets me is that we seem to have abandoned the basics that got us where we were last season. That was a solid base, consistent team selection and consistent team formation with either 4-5-1 or 4-4-2.

I couldn't believe the naivety of the formation tonight let alone the team selection. I'd agree that near enough the same team has to start the Donny game, which now becomes must win if we're to shrug this unwanted monkey off our backs about not winning at home, maybe with the exception of Brooker for Dele and Noble for Trundle.

I'd feel much happier knowing we were going for the jugular in a solid 4-4-2 formation with two game strikers, a playmaker and options from the bench if it ain't working.

I just can't get my head around what the hell he was thinking tonight.

[Ray White]

The only reason I can possibly think of as to why our wingers are always coming inside is that Marvin isn't playing so they have to help out Skuse and Johnson. On a different matter does anyone think that McIndoe has lost a yard of pace because he doesn't really seem to go past the full back much anymore or is this down to the aforementioned.

[kevinmabbuttshair]

It does frustrate me when we play so narrow in the first half. Brum were running so easily through our midfield in the first half. When we introduced Sproule for Williams(who should be playing in the centre of midfield!) we provided much more of an attacking option along the wing. Why have we not learnt from the qpr game??We need to start with the same team that finished tonight against Doncaster so that we can make the start that we finished tonight.

Well said that women, spot on!!

[tin]

Do you think that Gary asked McIndoe to play in the middle giving us no width on the left? No. Either that or he is as quick as you are.

Everything else can be answered from that.

Macca has got too big for his boots recently, in the first half against Cardiff he was useless, and it wasn't until the 50-60 minute mark today he started to influence the game, and even then he couldn't decide on where to play. He is not looking the same McIndoe who gave 110% every game and flew down the left wing last season.

WTF do you expect when McIndoe's a natural left footer blatantly being asked to play wide right? I'm left footed and I'd do exactly the same if asked to do that role for the team and it's natural instinct.

You're right. He did only affect the game after the 50-60 minute mark but that was when he'd been shifted back to his rightful position! Play square pegs in square holes and you'll get the best out of them. It ain't rocket science.

[petehinton]

Do you think that Gary asked McIndoe to play in the middle giving us no width on the left? No. Either that or he is as quick as you are.

Everything else can be answered from that.

Macca has got too big for his boots recently, in the first half against Cardiff he was useless, and it wasn't until the 50-60 minute mark today he started to influence the game, and even then he couldn't decide on where to play. He is not looking the same McIndoe who gave 110% every game and flew down the left wing last season.

if he had the brain of a left winger he would know that the instinct of a left winger is to hog the ######in line !

I don't get this whole 'adapted as a winger' thing aswell?

How can you play two positions !

If you play two positions your more likely to get drawn into the position your not playing in e.g Gavin Williams

Shouldn't play RM again IMO, start Ivan there if Wilson is injured for Donny game

[Harry]

Wingers need a bloody good seeing too

they seem to thing CM and LW/RW are the same effing position !!

???????

The 'wingers' were instructed not to play on the wing! It's not the players that got it wrong fella, it was the way they were told to play.

I've added my comments to this debate on another 'winger' thread. The original poster is correct. We went with the wrong formation, with players playing out of position, and we paid for it. I think we were playing for a draw, and we got found out.

[robins72]

The only reason I can possibly think of as to why our wingers are always coming inside is that Marvin isn't playing so they have to help out Skuse and Johnson. On a different matter does anyone think that McIndoe has lost a yard of pace because he doesn't really seem to go past the full back much anymore or is this down to the aforementioned.

Both Skuse and Johnson are defensive midfielders which doesnt help as this doesnt provide us with much of an attacking option from the middle of the park. With a playmaker like Noble we would create alot more but hes not even making the squad!! I'm still bemused by Williams started on the right as there is no way the man is comfortable there and he spent most of the time in the middle of the park. Stick to the wide men as we provide more attacking options and play alot better when attacking teams!!

[miketh2nd]

Tonight was not the night for experimenting. Here we were against one of the best sides in the league, who will be in the top four at the very least, and yet we take the field in an unfamiliar 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation. What the f*ck?

Combine that with our only left winger being instructed to play narrowly down the right side and our record signing playing, not in his rightful position of a striker, but on the left frigging wing! Again, what the f*ck?

It wasn't until both goals were conceded did the penny finally drop that this wasn't working but it would never have worked! Anyone could've told you that!

We had time in pre-season and the Carling Cup to fart arse around with formation and various players in different roles but tonight was surely a time to be solid, pick square pegs in square holes and make it difficult for the opposition to break us down.

Sadly, I don't think Birmingham even got out of second gear tonight and it wasn't until the reshuffle that we gained any kind of momentum and got back into the game. As good a goal as Trundle's was, it was far too little too late.

I just hope Sir Gary has learnt a valuable tactical lesson tonight otherwise we will be a long, long way off top six this season. Harsh but true.

I agree with most of this, we had already seen that williams can not play on the right and maybe with time can adjust however he must of seen him in training to know that he couldn't surely?

I'm not sure your right about the 4-3-3 formation because surely that would mean skuse was on the left and I didn't see him there. I maybe wouldn't of minded if mcindoe played well whereever that was yet he didn't perform and even in the second half was crossing quite deep not willing to pass the defender. If wilson isn't fit for doncaster surely sproule must start(btw I think he played well when he was on and provided the most chances from the wing)

I think GJ had quite a big blow when basso came off and only had two subs for the rest of the game but Basso did try to play on but obvisouly could see kicking was getting worse.I don't think Trundle suddenly merits a place i nthe line up however sublime the goal was. Yet possible keep his place on the bench. Although having said that by going how we played today we in no way shape or form played to one bit of stregths of Maynard. Then people groan once chance he gets he doesn't score and there is no link up with Dele either which is worrying.So I think mmaybe worth having him as super sub until we change the way we play to suit his needs. Weather this will be with elliot in the team I don't know but for sure we are missing elliot .

Having said all of that its easy to moan and groan but lets not forget it took 6 games until we have been beaten by a team from the premier league who although we have said took advantage of our empty wings were quality attacking side and will be up there at the end of the season.

[petehinton]

???????

The 'wingers' were instructed not to play on the wing! It's not the players that got it wrong fella, it was the way they were told to play.

I've added my comments to this debate on another 'winger' thread. The original poster is correct. We went with the wrong formation, with players playing out of position, and we paid for it. I think we were playing for a draw, and we got found out.

Yeah i guess, Suppose Gj is human after all

[Ryan 7]

I must say I have been extremely disapointed in Gavin Williams so far, and I think Nick Carle is a much better player.

[Andy082005]

I must say I have been extremely disapointed in Gavin Williams so far, and I think Nick Carle is a much better player.

Personally I am disappointed with both! Williams has been poor since signing, and Carle was poor for a majority of the games he played when with us

The money we got for Carle MUST be re-invested

[Roe]

I don't really see what the problem is. We've always played like this under GJ with McIndoe drifting in behind the front 2. Johnson likes us to be flexible so the other team doesn't know what we're doing and it usually works. I think perhaps the reason everyone noticed last night was because we had so much of the ball. In other games where we might not have as much possession, McIndoe will obviously have to drop back into his normal position and cover McAllister more. I do agree that it can be frustrating to watch when it doesn't work though.

[rockin-robin]

Personally I am disappointed with both! Williams has been poor since signing, and Carle was poor for a majority of the games he played when with us

The money we got for Carle MUST be re-invested

Wow what a post!

Firstly, Carle was pretty good in most of the games he played last season, anyone with half a footballing brain could see that. People seem to like to make up reasons for why he wasnt good eg. he didnt tackle, gave away penalties, didnt get any assists, didnt get any goals blah blah. Its all a load of rubbish. The reason Carle was sold was because GJ would have to accomodate him in the team and someone would have had to give. Most probably his son. But I'm not going to go on about that.

Secondly, Williams has looked good. In fact, I can see why GJ likes him. He's in a similiar mould as Noble but presumably a bit fitter. Again, GJ doesnt know where to play him because it would mean someone making way. Most probably his son. But I am not going to go on about that! :noexpression:

Thirdly, The money we got for Carle was re-invested. £2.25 million ring any bells?

In hindsight I would have not bought Maynard. But we'd all love to have hindsight. I have not been impressed by him at all. He looked like a boy trying to play football with men last night and was quite frankly very poor. Oh well...on to Donny I suppose.

[Roe]

In hindsight I would have not bought Maynard. But we'd all love to have hindsight. I have not been impressed by him at all. He looked like a boy trying to play football with men last night and was quite frankly very poor. Oh well...on to Donny I suppose.

Interesting point. Personally I feel that Nicky's always going to look like that. He's never going to be a player that looks brilliant doing everythign else he's just supposed to score goals. Granted he hasn't done that either yet really but he's got in good positions and with a little more luck, could've probably scored in every game. As long as he keeps his head up he'll score the goals soon enough.

[Redhyde]

This is Gary Johnsons first "Danny Wilson" moment. Gary play people in their correct positions please.

Why mess about with what was working...if you are going to change it as is the right..be brave and drop the striker who's not performing and pick Williams or Noble off the front man..

[tin]

This is Gary Johnsons first "Danny Wilson" moment. Gary play people in their correct positions please.

Why mess about with what was working...if you are going to change it as is the right..be brave and drop the striker who's not performing and pick Williams or Noble off the front man..

As much as I appreciate what Dele brings to the side, I'd rather see Trundle or Noble in behind Maynard than him. It may make us play more football instead of hoofing it up to the big man.

Personally, I'd prefer it if Brooker and Maynard went through the middle with Noble in centre mid in place of LJ. Then LJ could come on and shore it up after 60mins or Trundle could come on if we were still seeking to breakthrough but that's just my opinion.

[ooRya]

I must admit that I left the ground last night thinking that we lost the game because of Gary Johnson, so I think the original poster has a valid point.

We are not going to beat the better teams in this league by playing the system employed last night, it's far too narrow and doesn't allow us to get behind defences and create chances.

We need to play with width, ideally with Sproule on the right wing and Macca on the left. However, as someone else has mentioned I think we need Marvin back in the midfield to be able to do this, otherwise the better teams are going to pour through our midfield. The other option would be playing 3 at the back and a 5 man midfield.

[Antman]

We weren't playing 4-3-3. Brum came with a 4-5-1 formation that clogged up our midfield and stopped us trying to play it through on the deck. This meant we resorted to the lumped channel balls again - which against a team like Birmingham got us nowhere.

Williams drifted infield and basically got in the way of LJ (they play the same role, and don't seem to be able to play together at the same time) only in the second half did we respond and matched their formation (with Macca and Maynard breaking in from wide to support Ade) but frankly Birmingham were better than us.

If we don't get tackles in, and allow quality players to run right across our box we will concede. Equally if we don't take the gilt edged chances that fall our way in the box then we will lose games. Given Sproules input last night I wonder why he didn't start (although it's a lottery as to which Ivan will turn up!)

Maynard seemed slow to respond to the half chances he had, although he was tightly marshalled by their (very good) defence.

The weak link last night for me seemed to be Skuse, he was lost and on a number of occasions was a spectator as the play moved around him and past him.

(I watched him for some period and he was static and second best on a number of occasions, not imposing himself in the way he can do)If Elliott is fit again, I hope he will be back for Donny. Now i HATE Carsley, but he played a blinder last night - and showed Skuse what he needs to do to be a top flight DMF player.

Lets not get too downbeat, we played the best team in the division last night, and whilst I am a little tired of our jekell & Hyde performances (one half poor - one half good) the second half was a big improvement.

I thought the atmosphere was great and I would hope that the moaners don't get a foothold, so lets get out there and beat Donny comprehensively.

[Ron]

WTF do you expect when McIndoe's a natural left footer blatantly being asked to play wide right?

He didn't play wide right, for a start. And there's no way he was asked to play there.

[Lack of Action Man]

Ok this is how I saw the game and honestly thought happened. IN the first half it was obvious to see the very frustrating and confusing run patterns of mcindoe and williams both seemed to want to be within 5 yards of eachother in the middle of the park. At one point it resembled young school boy tactics - everyone chase the ball through the middle. I thought Lee Johnson put in an admirable performance doing two mens work in central midfield, without mentioning names Basso's kicking was poor but then again Taylor made the gaff that lead to Trundles bendy banana of a strike. Williams I think is wasted on the wing as he so often drifts infield - this in turn brings mcindoe infield where he is slightly more effective than williams but still is a winger at best. When Trundle and Sproule came on I saw big improvements from the pair - Trundle looking sharper, better touch and vision and Sproule who looked a real dangerous player on the attack.

I don't think this was a bad performance but I'm sure we could have done that extra bit better to scrape a draw.

[DAVE MARTINS HAIR]

He didn't play wide right, for a start. And there's no way he was asked to play there.

Mate I was sat in the Williams (for my sins) and in the first half if he would have been any further to the right he would have been sat next to me !!

Looked like Maynard was told to play on the left, but kept drifting in as you would expect him to do as he is a striker

Personally I thought Johnson tried to go like for like and match their formation

Didnt quite pull it off did we ??

[terjon]

He didn't play wide right, for a start. And there's no way he was asked to play there.

I am lost for words with some replies on here,

City played 4 5 1 defending and 4 3 3 going forward,That was perfectly clear for anyone to see, I can only guess the people in this thread who doubt these fact's must have either been late comers, drunk, or going to have a piss every 5 mins (dolman), or totally clueless about the game,

Mcclindoe played wide right most of the first half, maynard left, 3 central midfielders in the centre, Gary Johnson got it wrong its simple, Ok he's human he tried somthing new and it didint work...Lessons learnt,

[Ron]

I am lost for words with some replies on here,

City played 4 5 1 defending and 4 3 3 going forward,That was perfectly clear for anyone to see, I can only guess the people in this thread who doubt these fact's must have either been late comers, drunk, or going to have a piss every 5 mins (dolman), or totally clueless about the game,

Mcclindoe played wide right most of the first half, maynard left, 3 central midfielders in the centre, Gary Johnson got it wrong its simple, Ok he's human he tried somthing new and it didint work...Lessons learnt,

City started in a 4-4-2 until McIndoe started cutting in about 5 minutes in. Eventually the lack of width on the left saw other players switch around to compensate. McIndoe's poor performances coupled with his new-found "versatility" make me wonder whether something is afoot.