redrob Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 It was very clear from the beginning who the replacement for NC was. He was already here. The managers son. I am sorry to say that my suspicions over the relatinship between our manager and his son seem to be getting more realistic every game. LJ is an average-low championship midfielder. He is does not score nor does he set up goals. While he makes lots of passes,the stats do not show what happens with all these passes. He loses the ball in critiacal areas (due to where he plays his football) he does not break forward and cause opposing midfielders to face their own goal and nor does he make challenges that slow down opposititon attacks. Carle has shown evidence of doing all the above since he replaced LJ at the back end of last season and now he has moved onto Palace (Has been one of their best players in nearly every game) (and they are only 1 point behind us). I have supported GJ the whole time (even when he was laying the law down during that fateful 9 game losing run in League 1). However, I am shaken by the loyalty and apparent blindness to the problem that is causing one of our best players (M.Elliott) to be struggling with fitness) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 It was very clear from the beginning who the replacement for NC was. He was already here. The managers son. I am sorry to say that my suspicions over the relatinship between our manager and his son seem to be getting more realistic every game. LJ is an average-low championship midfielder. He is does not score nor does he set up goals. While he makes lots of passes,the stats do not show what happens with all these passes. He loses the ball in critiacal areas (due to where he plays his football) he does not break forward and cause opposing midfielders to face their own goal and nor does he make challenges that slow down opposititon attacks. Carle has shown evidence of doing all the above since he replaced LJ at the back end of last season and now he has moved onto Palace (Has been one of their best players in nearly every game) (and they are only 1 point behind us). I have supported GJ the whole time (even when he was laying the law down during that fateful 9 game losing run in League 1). However, I am shaken by the loyalty and apparent blindness to the problem that is causing one of our best players (M.Elliott) to be struggling with fitness) What a stupid post. Whats the reason Elliott is struggling with fitness? Because we sold Carle!? When have you seen Carle play this season? You've not is the answer I'm guessing. He's scored 3 goals admittidly but got subbed early the other week after a poor performance. How many goals or assists did Carle get at his spell with us? LJ is a decent Championship player, there is better out there, but he is not the reason we are losing. You don't have a clue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Good Post, no matter how unpopular it may be with some. I've posted the something similar in another thread.....prepare to be Mr Unpopular. Quite simply, Carle was sold for unknown reasons, but the only benefit I can see is that it meant Lee Johnson could play more and because we made a smal profit on him? Simple fact is.......LJ wasn't good enough last season and to date hasn't been good enough this season, the fact that he continues to be a regular starter is holding the team back quite honestly. YES. What I'm saying is I do feel that Gary despite the progression the club has made in his time as manager.......is now starting to hold the club back by the constant policy to play his son, despite the fact he is not good enough for the championship. Perhaps he shouldn't be the manager of this club, if he continues to be blind to the fact that certain players aren't good enough. This doesn't just count for his son, there is a number of others postions that do need improving. But haven't been due to his over "loyality" to those players Yes some will feel this is harsh and I'm out of order, but I'm sure just as many will think I actually have a may point. What's the answer? who knows.....but until we have a central midfield that adds depth to the squad and can challenge for a 1st team place then it's going to be a question that keeps getting asked. Still for that to happen we actually need to sign one and for GJ to realise that the position is actually a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 What a stupid post. Whats the reason Elliott is struggling with fitness? Because we sold Carle!? When have you seen Carle play this season? You've not is the answer I'm guessing. He's scored 3 goals admittidly but got subbed early the other week after a poor performance. How many goals or assists did Carle get at his spell with us? LJ is a decent Championship player, there is better out there, but he is not the reason we are losing. You don't have a clue LJ is not a decent championship player. What evidence do you have to back that up?! Few goals, few assists, minimal impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 LJ is not a decent championship player. What evidence do you have to back that up?! Few goals, few assists, minimal impact. the fact he was an important part of the side that put us where we were last season. that is proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br1stolCityBoy Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 It was very clear from the beginning who the replacement for NC was. He was already here. The managers son. I am sorry to say that my suspicions over the relatinship between our manager and his son seem to be getting more realistic every game. LJ is an average-low championship midfielder. He is does not score nor does he set up goals. While he makes lots of passes,the stats do not show what happens with all these passes. He loses the ball in critiacal areas (due to where he plays his football) he does not break forward and cause opposing midfielders to face their own goal and nor does he make challenges that slow down opposititon attacks. Carle has shown evidence of doing all the above since he replaced LJ at the back end of last season and now he has moved onto Palace (Has been one of their best players in nearly every game) (and they are only 1 point behind us). I have supported GJ the whole time (even when he was laying the law down during that fateful 9 game losing run in League 1). However, I am shaken by the loyalty and apparent blindness to the problem that is causing one of our best players (M.Elliott) to be struggling with fitness) Well said, please read my threads on 'How I See It (not Through Rose Tinted Glasses)' Thats exactly what I have been saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 the fact he was an important part of the side that put us where we were last season. that is proof. So by that logic you believe a player should be picked based on past accomplishments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 the fact he was an important part of the side that put us where we were last season. that is proof. Correct and Thank You. Last Season, the team and manager stated that the aim was to gain promotion, (obviously we all thought they were mad) and he was a regular member of the side, that failed to gain promotion. There was a weakness last season and that same weakness hasn't been improved upon, in fact it's been weakened by the removal of any competition to the position. It actually goes deeper. In the promtion season, Alex Russell was a KEY player in the team and on a number of occasions was a better player than Johnson, however he wasn't given a chance last season, a midfielder was brought in Carle, moved around the team and looked average until played in his best position alongside Elliott and boy did he shine.......he was then sold. Was he replaced? NO...... Debateable you could say by Gavin Williams.......however he's now found not to be good enough to ever get a place on the bench over Noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 So by that logic you believe a player should be picked based on past accomplishments? Well obviously not, its obvious I'm not saying that, you asked what evidence I had that he is a decent Championship player so I gave it you. But if we were picking players on form we wouldn't be able to field 11 players at the moment!!! I think Johnson should be playing in a midfield with Elliott and Noble just infront of them. The reason we're not winning is not down to LJ, I wish some people on here would get that into their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 So by that logic you believe a player should be picked based on past accomplishments? which beckons the question, why after such a succesful previous season, didn't alex russell get a chance in midfield last season? did he get to start a game last season? Also.....the other interesting thing that came to light in pre-season, from Lee Johnson himself, was that last season he was NEVER 100% fit and was struggling with injuries? So why did he play so often? when there was other players at the club who were fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Well obviously not, its obvious I'm not saying that, you asked what evidence I had that he is a decent Championship player so I gave it you. But if we were picking players on form we wouldn't be able to field 11 players at the moment!!! I think Johnson should be playing in a midfield with Elliott and Noble just infront of them. The reason we're not winning is not down to LJ, I wish some people on here would get that into their heads. And I wish people would get it into their heads that playing a midfielder who neither scores, assists, tackles or anything other than dinking corners and free kicks, is a major hinderance to the rest of the team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrob Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Whats the reason Elliott is struggling with fitness? Because we sold Carle!? When have you seen Carle play this season? You've not is the answer I'm guessing. He's scored 3 goals admittidly but got subbed early the other week after a poor performance. How many goals or assists did Carle get at his spell with us? Firstly, how is Elliott struggling due to us selling Carle? Elliott was not struggling when LJ was injured and played week in week out with Carle but come Feb/Mrch last year after playnig next to LJ all season he was vertainly very jaded and lacking that umphh we have come to know him for! Secondly, having watched three of palaces games this year (more than you have i expect) (I live in South London, some of my family are palace fans as are many of my friends) and having spoken to many Palace fans, Carle seems to have done very well for a player who likes the ball at his feet considering he is playing for a team who are still playing lots of long ball football even if it is down the channels rather than just HoofBall to Scowcroft. He has scored 3, set up 1, had 7 shots on target with a further 9 off target. From Palace fans point of view it sounds like he is getting in plenty of goal scoring positions and bringing players into the game. Thirdly, I am not saying that LJs presence is the whole reason we are losing. (Be useful if we stopped playing hoofball and used Dele as a targetman to lay off to Maynard/Akinde/Trundle on the floor to their feet) but having him in the centre of midfield means Elliott doing more than his fair share of donky work and the wingers needing to tuck in to cover the over run central midfield area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 a midfielder was brought in Carle, moved around the team and looked average until played in his best position alongside Elliott and boy did he shine.......he was then sold. When did he shine? He looked average the whole time here, he had a bit of bite about him but he never looked dangerous, he also lost the ball a lot. Lee is a decent player, I'm not claiming he's ever going to set the world alight but he's good enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Well obviously not, its obvious I'm not saying that, you asked what evidence I had that he is a decent Championship player so I gave it you. But if we were picking players on form we wouldn't be able to field 11 players at the moment!!! I think Johnson should be playing in a midfield with Elliott and Noble just infront of them. The reason we're not winning is not down to LJ, I wish some people on here would get that into their heads. Noble was on form Tuesday night when he came on? Didn'teven get a cameo from the bench yesterday, let alone a starting place he possibly deserved. One rule for Johnson's favorites, one rule for the rest of team. So Your Suggesting a 5 man midfield that failed last season as well? The reason that has been played in previous season is because we didn't have the quality of forwards needed? we have 5 strikers who have scored this season. Surely the sensible option, would not be too lose a forward, but to play Noble INSTEAD of Johnson. in a 4-4-2. People say it's not all down to LJ, No it's not, but he is the only midfielder who has played every game this season and all season we have had a lack of fight and creativity in midfield, if everyone else has missed game and the creativity is still a problem? surely it's down to the remaining player who doesn't get dropped regardless of form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 And I wish people would get it into their heads that playing a midfielder who neither scores, assists, tackles or anything other than dinking corners and free kicks, is a major hinderance to the rest of the team! Behave. He does a lot on the pitch. Every mistake he makes everyone jumps on and uses him as the scapegoat of why we're losing, he is not the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Still can't change the fact that LJ did not start six games last season and we won zero, drew 2 and lost 4, perhaps not all down to him not playing, but may have been part of the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br1stolCityBoy Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Well obviously not, its obvious I'm not saying that, you asked what evidence I had that he is a decent Championship player so I gave it you. But if we were picking players on form we wouldn't be able to field 11 players at the moment!!! I think Johnson should be playing in a midfield with Elliott and Noble just infront of them. The reason we're not winning is not down to LJ, I wish some people on here would get that into their heads. I don't think everyone is getting at LJ and he would be a good squad player. BUT we bought NM hopefully to greatly strengthen that position up front. So after losing NC and also knowing that we were very under strength in centre midfield, why do you think we have not bought in quality for that position. Answer in my opinion. Because LJ is the managers son, end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 When did he shine? He looked average the whole time here, he had a bit of bite about him but he never looked dangerous, he also lost the ball a lot. Lee is a decent player, I'm not claiming he's ever going to set the world alight but he's good enough right at the end of last season and in the play-offs when he finally get played in his best position alongside Elliott, I remember Sheffield Utd away despite the defeat being one of the best performances I've seen from a City midfield in recent years, He obviously did well enough for one of the most astute and experienced managers in the division be willing to spend over £1m on him after playing palace 4 times in his short time at City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Still can't change the fact that LJ did not start six games last season and we won zero, drew 2 and lost 4, perhaps not all down to him not playing, but may have been part of the reason. But that's just a blatant lie. Did LJ start against Preston last game of the season? did he start either of the Palace play-offs games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Noble was on form Tuesday night when he came on? Didn'teven get a cameo from the bench yesterday, let alone a starting place he possibly deserved. One rule for Johnson's favorites, one rule for the rest of team. So Your Suggesting a 5 man midfield that failed last season as well? The reason that has been played in previous season is because we didn't have the quality of forwards needed? we have 5 strikers who have scored this season. Surely the sensible option, would not be too lose a forward, but to play Noble INSTEAD of Johnson. in a 4-4-2. People say it's not all down to LJ, No it's not, but he is the only midfielder who has played every game this season and all season we have had a lack of fight and creativity in midfield, if everyone else has missed game and the creativity is still a problem? surely it's down to the remaining player who doesn't get dropped regardless of form? The 5 man midfield didnt fail last season if you remember. We were 2nd when we bought Dele and then reverted to playing 4-4-2 the majority of the time, then slipped down the table. I agree Noble should be getting playing time but I don't think dropping Johnson would be the best for the team, we need a 5 man midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 Behave. He does a lot on the pitch. Every mistake he makes everyone jumps on and uses him as the scapegoat of why we're losing, he is not the problem. He is not the solution either, clearly. He does a lot on the pitch, wonderful. WHAT THOUGH? Can someone please tell me WHAT HE DOES?!! He doesnt tackle, he doesnt head, he doesnt shoot, he doesnt score, he doesnt drive forward, he doesnt break up opposition attacks, he doesnt play through balls, he doesnt play first time balls forward... From all I can see he can recieve the ball from defense, pass it sideways of backwards. Please explain how that actually ADDS VALUE? As a creative force we are lacking at the moment, and as the ONLY everpresent midfielder, he needs to shoulder some of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 And I wish people would get it into their heads that playing a midfielder who neither scores, assists, tackles or anything other than dinking corners and free kicks, is a major hinderance to the rest of the team! And I wish people wouldn't look the other way every time he DOES tackle and DOES make an assist. I think the stas would show he has been our most effective midfielder this season, he is playing even better than last. But you wont want those facts, because you believe that a top quality Manager would risk his career for nepotism, after all conspiracy theories are much more fun than any facts and figures placed in front of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrob Posted October 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I am yet to find anyone who can tell me what (other than collecting the ball from Def only to pass the ball back to CBs or FBs for them to hoof the ball) LJ offers in terms of a deep central midfielder? If Johnson is not supposed to be playing a defensive central midfielder in the makele role then what is he supposed to be doing because he does not break forward or make killer assisting passes in the final third. (not trying to compare to the quality of makele but the type of position he is playing in) if he is playing deep then elliott has to be the attacking midfielder (while having to also cover for johnsons lack of physcial presence at the back). Get the feeling that if LJ was a bigger strionger player we would not be discussing this as he would be able to do the whole job his position on the pitch requires. Unfortunaly he is not therefore is not good enough not for lack of skill in that position but becasue he is too small. Would we be arguing about a centre half that was the best marker/tackler aorund but was too weak to deal witht the physical nautre of his position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 And I wish people wouldn't look the other way every time he DOES tackle and DOES make an assist. I think the stas would show he has been our most effective midfielder this season, he is playing even better than last. But you wont want those facts, because you believe that a top quality Manager would risk his career for nepotism, after all conspiracy theories are much more fun than any facts and figures placed in front of you. Please feel free to show and publish any stats? Assists.....Ohh. 1. (the same as Louis Carey) Goals.....0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 And I wish people wouldn't look the other way every time he DOES tackle and DOES make an assist. I think the stas would show he has been our most effective midfielder this season, he is playing even better than last. But you wont want those facts, because you believe that a top quality Manager would risk his career for nepotism, after all conspiracy theories are much more fun than any facts and figures placed in front of you. Stats are stats. We look poor and lightweight in that area of the pitch. You emphasise the fact when he 'DOES' tackle, which only strengthens my point, its too few and far between. Conspiracy theories are fun, and GJ should be careful because the LJ situation is getting perilous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 But that's just a blatant lie. Did LJ start against Preston last game of the season? did he start either of the Palace play-offs games? We did lose one of those Palace games 1-0 though if you remember rightly... i do understand why people don't like LJ as a player but i think he deserves more credit than he gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Br1stolCityBoy Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 And I wish people wouldn't look the other way every time he DOES tackle and DOES make an assist. I think the stas would show he has been our most effective midfielder this season, he is playing even better than last. But you wont want those facts, because you believe that a top quality Manager would risk his career for nepotism, after all conspiracy theories are much more fun than any facts and figures placed in front of you. I'm fed up at looking at Stats, just watch the matches. When we play quality sides like Sheff Utd, Wolves etc. LJ and others are no where to be seen. Thats why we need to bring in quality to kick on from last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 The 5 man midfield didnt fail last season if you remember. We were 2nd when we bought Dele and then reverted to playing 4-4-2 the majority of the time, then slipped down the table. I agree Noble should be getting playing time but I don't think dropping Johnson would be the best for the team, we need a 5 man midfield. It did fail, YES it worked for a while, because of the surprise factor of it, Once teams had scouted us and they soon started adapting to that and playing 5 against us, which resulted in has having to change back to a 4-4-2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daisybcfc Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 I'm fed up at looking at Stats, just watch the matches. When we play quality sides like Sheff Utd, Wolves etc. LJ and others are no where to be seen. Thats why we need to bring in quality to kick on from last season. I agree we need more quality, but in about 6 or 7 positions if we're going to compete with Wolves/Reading/Brum. LJ is not just in the team because he's the managers son, that sort of thing went out at U14's, we're in the championship, no one, no matter who they are would pick their son to play if they wern't good enough or had better available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scumbag Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 We did lose one of those Palace games 1-0 though if you remember rightly... Ummmm really? Won both games 2-1 if I remember rightly? perhaps you were one of the early leavers in the dolman and were already tucked up in bed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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