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Carles Replacement Announced..


redrob

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Agreed. Johnson wouldn't get in any other top end Championship side . The bloke does little to effect he game but seems untouchable and is a guaranteed fixture in the side regardless of form .

Getting beyond the joke.

Charlton enquired about Lee last January when they were up the top. Infact, they were the only Championship side enquiring about our players.

Before anyone says Pardew doesnt have a clue, this man took West Ham up, stayed there and nearly beat Liverpool in a F.A. cup final.

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CHRIST .... this is getting boring every week. Simple enough to realise that GJ believes in his team playing a certian way and HE believes that Lee is critical to this system. It was the same at Yeovil as it is here and i don't understand the stick that he still gets. If we were struggling at the foot of the table then i would understand. We are not a big team in the championship and as long as we stay there for a couple of seasons then we can build towards the Premier League. We cant really expect to compete against the bigger clubs in this league that have got parachute payments given to them. We have to consolodate ourselves for a couple of years, then get rid of the players that don't push themselves into the first team like Myre williams, Skuse, Wilson, Brooker etc and replace them with quality but that takes time.

I used to be a big fan of LJ but i think that this year he has struggled;. He is much more effective in a 5 man midfield but he does not deserve the stick that he gets and Gary J certainly doesnt.

Get a grip on reality and realise that it takes years to build a squad capable of the next level.

:fingerscrossed:

So, does this version of reality mean that we're going to have to stomach long-ball football for the rest of the season, coupled with a pedestrian attack and a central midfield with feet of clay?

No, wait - it could actually be years of this, now I've just re-read your post.

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CHRIST .... this is getting boring every week. Simple enough to realise that GJ believes in his team playing a certian way and HE believes that Lee is critical to this system. It was the same at Yeovil as it is here and i don't understand the stick that he still gets. If we were struggling at the foot of the table then i would understand. We are not a big team in the championship and as long as we stay there for a couple of seasons then we can build towards the Premier League. We cant really expect to compete against the bigger clubs in this league that have got parachute payments given to them. We have to consolodate ourselves for a couple of years, then get rid of the players that don't push themselves into the first team like Myre williams, Skuse, Wilson, Brooker etc and replace them with quality but that takes time.

I used to be a big fan of LJ but i think that this year he has struggled;. He is much more effective in a 5 man midfield but he does not deserve the stick that he gets and Gary J certainly doesnt.

Get a grip on reality and realise that it takes years to build a squad capable of the next level.

:fingerscrossed:

Have a bit more faith and ambition, read my comments in the Hull thread.

The thing about this football lark, it moves very quickly, decsions made in the summer to sell but not satisfactorily replace players in the midfield area (putting personnal preferences about Nick carle aside) is proving costly.

It was the same at Yeovil and they had problems with it to, he didnt hang about long after Gary came to City.

Lee Johnson as will any other player get stick if they are not peroforming end of story. The problem for Lee is that this has been brewing for some time, with a few prepared to voice an opinion but many in respect for Johnson senior have been less vocal.

The issue that everyone has to deal with for the sake of squad cohesion, is that players should be picked on merit and performance. It will remain "boring" until Lee Johnson silences his critics (including me) with his perofrmances or he his rested. The issue is and you appear to agree is that he has not been doing it this season, he is also quoted as criticising his own perofrmance last season.

It is hard for me to understand that other players get dropped when playing porrly or do not start after scoring or playing well, when he is continualy selected.

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Charlton enquired about Lee last January when they were up the top.

Then we missed a fantastic opportunity to off load him. Funny how Johnson had no problem letting Carle go to a London based club. I wonder why!

Get a grip on reality and realise that it takes years to build a squad capable of the next level.

That's what concerns me! we look a shadow of the side from last season and seem to of gone backwards.

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Have a bit more faith and ambition, read my comments in the Hull thread.

The thing about this football lark, it moves very quickly, decsions made in the summer to sell but not satisfactorily replace players in the midfield area (putting personnal preferences about Nick carle aside) is proving costly.

It was the same at Yeovil and they had problems with it to, he didnt hang about long after Gary came to City.

Lee Johnson as will any other player get stick if they are not peroforming end of story. The problem for Lee is that this has been brewing for some time, with a few prepared to voice an opinion but many in respect for Johnson senior have been less vocal.

The issue that everyone has to deal with for the sake of squad cohesion, is that players should be picked on merit and performance. It will remain "boring" until Lee Johnson silences his critics (including me) with his perofrmances or he his rested. The issue is and you appear to agree is that he has not been doing it this season, he is also quoted as criticising his own perofrmance last season.

It is hard for me to understand that other players get dropped when playing porrly or do not start after scoring or playing well, when he is continualy selected.

I agree, when the whole ''he is getting picked beacuse he is the magers son'' crap started to become the topic of conversation for some city fans, i thought it was complete and utter nonsense. However i really am starting to question Johnson seniors motives, Lee as many people have posted offers very little to the game. He does not score, create goals plus he cannont tackle to save his life, and just seems to play nice one twos with the back four and not much else.

Why he is still constently getting picked is beyond me, i never even thought this would cross my mind but shorly Gary is not picking him just beacuse he is his son?

I really am starting to wonder :noexpression:

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Charlton enquired about Lee last January when they were up the top. Infact, they were the only Championship side enquiring about our players.

Before anyone says Pardew doesnt have a clue, this man took West Ham up, stayed there and nearly beat Liverpool in a F.A. cup final.

Enquired....but didn't make a bid did he.......

Enough said.

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The two games that made my mind up about Johnson were last season - Watford and Hull at home. In both games, we dominated the first half and never looked like losing, then were clinging on or not creating in the second half. In both games Johnson went off injured at half time.

I agree that it's hard to see exactly what he's doing, as he's not making the tackles like Marvin or getting the ball in the box like McIndoe. However, I think the team is more intelligent and measured when he plays and I'd suggest he acts as the fulcrum to the team, receiving and giving the ball and contributing to the team.

I've become obsessed with reading Newspapers' scores out of ten. LJ gets low scores in the Evening Post, but in the Times, the Telegraph, the News of the World, and the Sun he's almost always one of our three highest-rated players. These are national journalists with an objective view of the game, and I trust their judgement. I've had a quick scan and couldn't find them online, but have a look next time you're sat in a cafe, pub or library on a Sunday or Monday.

LJ's a good player, and an all-rounder rather than a specialist, which means he doesn't stand out. I agree that we should always be looking for an upgrade to all our positions, but name five great midfielders in the Championship? Ben Watson and Seb Larsson spring to mind. Brian Howard possibly (although I don't remember him standing out in the past). Who else? Also, I can't remember seeing any midfielders in League One that I'd like to bring to the club now.

Sometimes I can't but feel that many of the people complaining about Johnson are those who argued Gary should leave three years ago (eg "that fateful 9-game run"? What was fateful about it? We got promoted the next year!). Maybe they can't handle being proven wrong, and are picking an easy scapegoat for this frustration. GJ will get it right, and he won't pick LJ for any reason other than that he works well within our team.

Personally I'd like to see 5 in midfield, with Trundle on the right and Noble in the middle wth LJ and Elliott.

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I agree, when the whole ''he is getting picked beacuse he is the magers son'' crap started to become the topic of conversation for some city fans, i thought it was complete and utter nonsense. However i really am starting to question Johnson seniors motives, Lee as many people have posted offers very little to the game. He does not score, create goals plus he cannont tackle to save his life, and just seems to play nice one twos with the back four and not much else.

Why he is still constently getting picked is beyond me, i never even thought this would cross my mind but shorly Gary is not picking him just beacuse he is his son?

I really am starting to wonder :noexpression:

Ask yourself these questions, if we are to contend for honours this year, is LJ the centre mid to take us there - his he beyond reproach; who, out of the current squad could do BETTER?

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The two games that made my mind up about Johnson were last season - Watford and Hull at home. In both games, we dominated the first half and never looked like losing, then were clinging on or not creating in the second half. In both games Johnson went off injured at half time.

I agree that it's hard to see exactly what he's doing, as he's not making the tackles like Marvin or getting the ball in the box like McIndoe. However, I think the team is more intelligent and measured when he plays and I'd suggest he acts as the fulcrum to the team, receiving and giving the ball and contributing to the team.

I've become obsessed with reading Newspapers' scores out of ten. LJ gets low scores in the Evening Post, but in the Times, the Telegraph, the News of the World, and the Sun he's almost always one of our three highest-rated players. These are national journalists with an objective view of the game, and I trust their judgement. I've had a quick scan and couldn't find them online, but have a look next time you're sat in a cafe, pub or library on a Sunday or Monday.

LJ's a good player, and an all-rounder rather than a specialist, which means he doesn't stand out. I agree that we should always be looking for an upgrade to all our positions, but name five great midfielders in the Championship? Ben Watson and Seb Larsson spring to mind. Brian Howard possibly (although I don't remember him standing out in the past). Who else? Also, I can't remember seeing any midfielders in League One that I'd like to bring to the club now.

Sometimes I can't but feel that many of the people complaining about Johnson are those who argued Gary should leave three years ago (eg "that fateful 9-game run"? What was fateful about it? We got promoted the next year!). Maybe they can't handle being proven wrong, and are picking an easy scapegoat for this frustration. GJ will get it right, and he won't pick LJ for any reason other than that he works well within our team.

Personally I'd like to see 5 in midfield, with Trundle on the right and Noble in the middle wth LJ and Elliott.

Vey good post although I am clearly on the other side of the argument. So much better than the "dumbasses" comment of last night from one poster.

I wanted to reply because I certainly wasn't one of those demanding Gary Johnson's head after the infamous 9 game run. I knew that it was a painful part of his sorting the club and and its culture from top to bottom. I was and I am still grateful for that job and I told his brother so at the end of season awards.

He has instilled a pride, fitness and desire toplay for the red shirt of Bristol City, no question. But this is not job done surely, we want to (at least that the vibe from the club) more forward. And difficult squad decsions need to be made. All the top managers have had to do this, and know when is the right time to move a playeron Ferguson and Venger are excellant exponants of this art.

Personaly I judge with my own eyes, and wouldn't pay to much attention to the rags both local and national. The Daily mail after our game at Charton last year was unbelivably biased agaginst City, even though the Charton webside more or less admited they had been played off the pitch. And Neil Ashton again of the Mail stated that City had been comprehesively outplayed at Wembley, something many on this forum, rightfully took exception to.

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So, does this version of reality mean that we're going to have to stomach long-ball football for the rest of the season, coupled with a pedestrian attack and a central midfield with feet of clay?

No, wait - it could actually be years of this, now I've just re-read your post.

If you think that this is long ball football then you clearly have no knowledge of football, its hardly long ball.

Before Plymouth, there was only 2 teams that had conceded less goals than us and 3 teams that had scorded more than us, we have played half decent football ( if you want to watch crap go and watch a couple of gas games ) and you are moaning about BCFC.

Yes we have got half a dozen players not up to standered but like i said it takes time to build and replace with the"next level" of quality.

Perhaps i have got no ambitionl but i would be happy to finish in the top 10 this and next season whilst building a strong squad capable of pushing us to the next level, whilst not running up huge debts

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Personaly I judge with my own eyes, and wouldn't pay to much attention to the rags both local and national. The Daily mail after our game at Charton last year was unbelivably biased agaginst City, even though the Charton webside more or less admited they had been played off the pitch. And Neil Ashton again of the Mail stated that City had been comprehesively outplayed at Wembley, something many on this forum, rightfully took exception to.

I remember back in 1997 when City beat Millwall to go top of (then) Div 2. The Mail's story? "Millwall missed out on a chance to enter a playoff spot last night as they went down 2-0 to Bristol City". I also remember Mark Lawrenson's column statng last year that the Championship was weaker than in years, when in fact the three teams promoted have started stronger than any threesome of promoted teams (I think). So yeah, national journalists are as prone to idiocy as much as any.

With LJ, I guess there's a distinction between (1) wanting a different kind of midfielder, or thinking GJ's mistaken as to LJ's quality, and (2) shouting at LJ during a match or saying there's a bias issue. My concern is that there's too much of the latter and I don't see how those kind of comments could possibly improve the likelihood of our team winning their next match.

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I remember back in 1997 when City beat Millwall to go top of (then) Div 2. The Mail's story? "Millwall missed out on a chance to enter a playoff spot last night as they went down 2-0 to Bristol City". I also remember Mark Lawrenson's column statng last year that the Championship was weaker than in years, when in fact the three teams promoted have started stronger than any threesome of promoted teams (I think). So yeah, national journalists are as prone to idiocy as much as any.

With LJ, I guess there's a distinction between (1) wanting a different kind of midfielder, or thinking GJ's mistaken as to LJ's quality, and (2) shouting at LJ during a match or saying there's a bias issue. My concern is that there's too much of the latter and I don't see how those kind of comments could possibly improve the likelihood of our team winning their next match.

I agree, I will express myself on this forum quite openly and try as best I can explain, why I think that way. I don't expect anyone else to agree (although obviously its good when you strike a cord with someone else).

But like you, I think match day is a different kettle of fish. I won't lie and say I openly support Lee Johnson for example as I don't, I support the team and have been known to start a chant or three from the Dolman stand. But I don't believe in the constant abuse of any player in a City shirt. I've seen the like of Steve Torpey get fed to the lions so to speak and it anit nice.

You will however never stop peple expressing an opinion or a shout of frustration that is natural and makes football the game it is.

I hope I fit into catogary 1 and over the past week I've gone to some lenghts to explain why.

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I have a feeling that our defence and midfield will look very different at the start of the 2009/2010 season.

Heading for the door IMO will be (no brown or red sauces): Carey, Orr, Skuse, Sproule, McIndoe, Brooker and possibly even Lee Johnson.

BCAGFC

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Enquired....but didn't make a bid did he.......

Enough said.

Do you know what 'enquire' means? The extended way of saying it is, 'Enquiring about Johnsons availibility'

Johnson snr. said he wasnt available and Lee wasnt interested.

End of. Enough said.

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What a stupid post.

Whats the reason Elliott is struggling with fitness? Because we sold Carle!?

When have you seen Carle play this season? You've not is the answer I'm guessing. He's scored 3 goals admittidly but got subbed early the other week after a poor performance. How many goals or assists did Carle get at his spell with us?

LJ is a decent Championship player, there is better out there, but he is not the reason we are losing. You don't have a clue

Have to disagree. Nick Carle was one of the best players I've seen in a City shirt for a long time. Exciting to watch, great touch and one of the only players who, I believe, could have made the step up if it wasn't for that fat #### Windass.

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6 goals in what.... 3 seasons at the club?

Rubbish contribution for a CM

Let's see now. A midfield player required by his manager to play mostly in his own half fails to score goals. Xabi Alonso's two outrageous goals from his own half notwithstanding should we be surprised? If scoring goals is the measure of a deep lying midfielder's worth presumably Mourinho should never have signed let alone played Makelele?

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Have to disagree. Nick Carle was one of the best players I've seen in a City shirt for a long time. Exciting to watch, great touch and one of the only players who, I believe, could have made the step up if it wasn't for that fat #### Windass.

All True.

Anyone who would rather have LJ in the team over Carle, really doesn't have a clue, Nick Carle is a better all round footballer in every department than Lee Johnson and I defy anyone who disagrees with that simple fact.

The way I see it is quite simple and is as Neil Warnock said in June , We wanted to sign a striker which was going cost alot of money, but simply couldn't afford it without raising some funds by selling a player.

Carle was probably our most valueable player (maybe after Elliott) at the club at the time and the player we could get the most money for, so Gary decided to cash in, despite the fact it's seriously reduced the strength of our midfield.

However Gary rightly felt we needed a forward so was willing to make the sacrifice, with the excuse that he hadn't done enough, despite the fact that he looked potentially to be one of the best midfielders we have had at the club for a very long time.

What I find amazing is how many people on here have forgotten what Carle could actually do and couldn't see the potential in a player, who surely it's just a matter of time until he plays in the Prem, my only hope is that we have a sell on in the deal.

Either way, it's a serious problem we have in midfield again when our only attacking options are LJ and Noble, neither of whom due to ability or fitness are upto it at this level on a consistent basis, this area needs to be strengthed MORE THAN ANY OTHER in the team and if Gary and Steve are serious about promotion is needs to be done ASAP!

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Let's see now. A midfield player required by his manager to play mostly in his own half fails to score goals. Xabi Alonso's two outrageous goals from his own half notwithstanding should we be surprised? If scoring goals is the measure of a deep lying midfielder's worth presumably Mourinho should never have signed let alone played Makelele?

Elliott is the deep lying Central Midfielder who is also capable of bombing forward when needed.

Johnson is the attacking creative player......who doesn't attack.

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What I find amazing is how many people on here have forgotten what Carle could actually do and couldn't see the potential in a player, who surely it's just a matter of time until he plays in the Prem, my only hope is that we have a sell on in the deal.

Written like a love letter to Selhurst Park...

But seriously I know we are never going to agree on Carle but at 27 years old and playing in a Palace team that will struggle to win promotion this season he's going to have to be on the move (again) pretty sharp-ish if he's going to play in the Premier League.

For me though he's far too limited for that level of football. Can't get up and down the pitch quick enough, can't shoot, no long range passing of note, poor from set pieces, too slow, clumbsy in the tackle...

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Elliott is the deep lying Central Midfielder who is also capable of bombing forward when needed.

Johnson is the attacking creative player......who doesn't attack.

Sorry but this doesn't seem to equate with the evidence. Who picks the ball up off the back four time and again? Marvin does indeed do the bombing forward (when fit) and plays in front of Lee when we are in possession. His role is certainly not a defensive one, though like everybody else (wingers included) he is expected to defend. Horses for courses.

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Elliott is the deep lying Central Midfielder who is also capable of bombing forward when needed.

Johnson is the attacking creative player......who doesn't attack.

I don't see it like that. Johnson is the hub, he takes the ball off the back 4 & gives it to the midfield. He doesn't get beyond the ball very often & that works well playing in tandem with Marv as he (Marv) does the bursts into the box.

For all the abuse of Johnson - his passes put Sproule clean through against Coventry & Brum - it's not Johnsons fault that the finishes were fairly weak. He aslo played the pass that put Maynard through against Cardiff but again it was saved. Against Donny he played a very good ball over the top that put Mcindoe through, but on the stretch it steered it wide. Without giving it much thought thats 4 "goals" he's created only for someone else to miss. Bearing in mind I don't recall our defence being penetrated with too many defence splitting balls this season, I think thats not a bad tally.

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I don't see it like that. Johnson is the hub, he takes the ball off the back 4 & gives it to the midfield. He doesn't get beyond the ball very often & that works well playing in tandem with Marv as he (Marv) does the bursts into the box.

For all the abuse of Johnson - his passes put Sproule clean through against Coventry & Brum - it's not Johnsons fault that the finishes were fairly weak. He aslo played the pass that put Maynard through against Cardiff but again it was saved. Against Donny he played a very good ball over the top that put Mcindoe through, but on the stretch it steered it wide. Without giving it much thought thats 4 "goals" he's created only for someone else to miss. Bearing in mind I don't recall our defence being penetrated with too many defence splitting balls this season, I think thats not a bad tally.

I made similar points myself earlier in this thread, but it seems that some people would prefer to put their heads in the sand when these events occur during games. There are two other points that people seem to miss with LJ.

1. Defending isn't just about tackling, although he does make his share despite what people think, it's also about positional sense and being disciplined in maintaining it. LJ is rarely caught out of position.

2. He is always the "available man", i.e. when players can't go forward and need support, he is almost always the guy they lay the ball off to. Some people can't see the value in that, but it stops people getting caught in possession or making desperate, easily caught out passes.

Finally, I believe that the people who value players the most are the other players, and I see no evidence that the team as a whole resent his presence. In fact I would say the opposite is true.

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I don't see it like that. Johnson is the hub, he takes the ball off the back 4 & gives it to the midfield. He doesn't get beyond the ball very often & that works well playing in tandem with Marv as he (Marv) does the bursts into the box.

If Johnson is 'the hub' as you have described, then isn't that called a 'sweeper' in old money? In your terms that could also be called a holding midfielder and Johnson is neither. When Skuse played alongside Lee, which one was the attacking midfielder then?

For all the abuse of Johnson - his passes put Sproule clean through against Coventry & Brum - it's not Johnsons fault that the finishes were fairly weak. He aslo played the pass that put Maynard through against Cardiff but again it was saved. Against Donny he played a very good ball over the top that put Mcindoe through, but on the stretch it steered it wide. Without giving it much thought thats 4 "goals" he's created only for someone else to miss. Bearing in mind I don't recall our defence being penetrated with too many defence splitting balls this season, I think thats not a bad tally.

For Lee's few great contributions there have been numerous times when his passes have been intercepted and he's often caught in possession leaving our opponents in good attacking positions. I say this as a fan who doesn't 'abuse' any City player, but simply offers constructive criticism based on what I've seen at matches, or heard on the radio.

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If Johnson is 'the hub' as you have described, then isn't that called a 'sweeper' in old money? In your terms that could also be called a holding midfielder and Johnson is neither. When Skuse played alongside Lee, which one was the attacking midfielder then?

No. A sweeper plays behind the defence.

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If Johnson is 'the hub' as you have described, then isn't that called a 'sweeper' in old money? In your terms that could also be called a holding midfielder and Johnson is neither. When Skuse played alongside Lee, which one was the attacking midfielder then?

Neither of them unfortunately, which was part of the problem. They are suited to a similar role and we have no like for like cover for Marvin. So we started against Plymouth for instance with the declared intention of going at them like Wolves had against us with 2 deep lying midfield players. Naturally it didn't work.

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You're right, and I should have referenced that first. As a football coach, how would you describe Lee's role?

He appears to play predominantly in the hole between midfield and defence, offering himself as a short option (no pun intended).

However, in my opinion, for that to work really effectively, you really need another player operating in the hole between the midfield and the striker. Otherwise you tend to end up short of numbers in the centre of the pitch, unless the player playing Lee's role has an engine on him like a locomotive.

You can have the best passer in the history of football playing that role, but if there are no options when he looks up, he either has to try something risky, which more often than not doesn't come off (cue boos and groans) or he is simply used as a cushion for a defender to bounce a ball off, before receiving it back with more room, so the defender can launch it under less pressure than he previously was.

I recall when Noble was playing behind a striker last season that Gary Johnson commented on how it improves our options and angles, and I tend to agree with that.

I'd say his job is to always be an easier option to the player in possession, which means he sometimes gets given the ball in places where a mistake can be costly. People notice and remember those.

I'm only a jobbing kids' coach though, so it's just an opinion like anyone else's.

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He appears to play predominantly in the hole between midfield and defence, offering himself as a short option (no pun intended).

However, in my opinion, for that to work really effectively, you really need another player operating in the hole between the midfield and the striker. Otherwise you tend to end up short of numbers in the centre of the pitch, unless the player playing Lee's role has an engine on him like a locomotive.

You can have the best passer in the history of football playing that role, but if there are no options when he looks up, he either has to try something risky, which more often than not doesn't come off (cue boos and groans) or he is simply used as a cushion for a defender to bounce a ball off, before receiving it back with more room, so the defender can launch it under less pressure than he previously was.

I recall when Noble was playing behind a striker last season that Gary Johnson commented on how it improves our options and angles, and I tend to agree with that.

I'd say his job is to always be an easier option to the player in possession, which means he sometimes gets given the ball in places where a mistake can be costly. People notice and remember those.

I'm only a jobbing kids' coach though, so it's just an opinion like anyone else's.

Well you're better qualified than me. Reckon you are right on all counts here. Playing 4-4-2 doesn't make the best of the abilities of the players we have, especially as we don't have a consistent right winger. Extra man in a forward midfield position it is then.

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Well you're better qualified than me. Reckon you are right on all counts here. Playing 4-4-2 doesn't make the best of the abilities of the players we have, especially as we don't have a consistent right winger. Extra man in a forward midfield position it is then.

That's what I'd try. And, to my mind, the player with the attributes best suited to that withdrawn role is Lee Trundle.

Whether he can learn the position, I don't know, but he has the vision, touch and pass to hold the ball and release people, in my opinion.

Football is all about retaining possession. If you do that, you're well on your way. With that in mind, I'd play as many of our ball retainers as possible to get us through this sticky patch i.e. Elliott and Johnson in the middle, Noble and McIndoe on the wings and Trundle behind a striker.

Easy game on paper though.

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