Trundle And Noble Should Both Leave The Club

[tinman-is-god]

OK, I accept you have no agenda. However I do think you are using inaccurate statistics to support what you want to say.

It is absolutely NOT clear that you meant both starts and sub appearances, and considering that 1/3 of their apperances have been as sub, I would have thought it would be fair to state that.

Yes, some goals have come off the bench. However considering they are both brought off more often than not when they do start, I would say that nullifies the sub appearances to an extent.

Furthermore, their scoring records are not much different than any other midfield player or striker still here over the past 2 seasons. So presumably, you also feel its goodbye to Johnson, McIndoe, Sproule, Adebola and Maynard. Not going to have much of a squad left are we.

You say many feel they don't do enough. Depends what you mean by many. Look at the posts on this forum, in overwhelming support of Trundle and Noble, and have been for some time. And if you want facts rather than anecdotal, have a look at this:

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=108539

That was 4 games ago. Would be even higher now I would imagine. And before you say that is not a representative sample, I can tell you as somebody who has studied statistics at various times in my career (boring I know), that sample has probably got a 95% or thereabouts likelihood of being representative of City fans.

That's the facts out of the way.

Of course you and the minority of others, and GJ, may be right. All I would say is, give them both a run of a dozen games, because the results and just as importantly the style of football cant be much worse than it is right now.

Clearly we have a different interpretation of what is clear in relation to starts and subs. I would genuinely believe that when I state how many games they have played, most people would know that means starts and subs. I was not attempting, at all, to mislead people in support of my argument, just stated that they had played 146 games between them, stating the facts.

Also, i do not believe that what i says has any further consequences in relation to the other players. LT23 is a big earner at the club who came billed as the man who would score goals, and his place in the squad comes at a big price each week, and he hasn't done enough to justify that wage in my view. Thus, if a bid came in that was adequate, to accept it would makes sense to me. Again, just my perception and not an agenda.

In terms of Noble, as another poster has stated, he has only started 130 odd games and we all know his trouble with fitness and ability to make it through a match. I understand, but do not agree, with the view that if he played more then his fitness would improve and he would be able to play week in, week out. Noble does not do enough over the pitch (whreas Johnson and McIndoe do) to justify his position in the side on a regular basis. He is a creative player and has great ability and can be fantastic. But not often, and his fitness does not look like improving drastically. Again, same as with LT23, if the right bid came in then i'd thank him for all he's done (who can forget home to Rotherham and THAT goal at Palace) and let him move on.

Unsurprisingly, I am going to agree with you over the poll. I'm afraid that as much as we might think we do, OTIB users are not fully representative of City fans. I think this is clear to know from any discussions with the majority of City fans who do not post on here. We have 4,700 members on here, and i would take a punt a good 1,000 of them are fans of other teams or fans who do not post. Therefore, OTIB represents the views of about 3,700 City fans, and whilst this does, of course, represent a chunk of City fans, it is not fully representative of the fanbase. Also, i never claimed that my views on Trundle and Noble were the majority view, i said 'many others'. Many others means that there are many others who agree with me. Which i know, from chatting to fellow City fans, is the case. I never, or will not, claim that it is the majority view, but it is certainly a view held by many.

It's strange that you keep referencing the usage of facts in order to attempt to undermine my argument, when the statistics i quoted where correct. Also, yours were not! You claimed Trundle had scored eight in 29 starts, which is simply untrue, so if the argument is one to be based on facts then i think i am on pretty solid ground.

[NickJ]

Clearly we have a different interpretation of what is clear in relation to starts and subs. I would genuinely believe that when I state how many games they have played, most people would know that means starts and subs. I was not attempting, at all, to mislead people in support of my argument, just stated that they had played 146 games between them, stating the facts.

Also, i do not believe that what i says has any further consequences in relation to the other players. LT23 is a big earner at the club who came billed as the man who would score goals, and his place in the squad comes at a big price each week, and he hasn't done enough to justify that wage in my view. Thus, if a bid came in that was adequate, to accept it would makes sense to me. Again, just my perception and not an agenda.

In terms of Noble, as another poster has stated, he has only started 130 odd games and we all know his trouble with fitness and ability to make it through a match. I understand, but do not agree, with the view that if he played more then his fitness would improve and he would be able to play week in, week out. Noble does not do enough over the pitch (whreas Johnson and McIndoe do) to justify his position in the side on a regular basis. He is a creative player and has great ability and can be fantastic. But not often, and his fitness does not look like improving drastically. Again, same as with LT23, if the right bid came in then i'd thank him for all he's done (who can forget home to Rotherham and THAT goal at Palace) and let him move on.

Unsurprisingly, I am going to agree with you over the poll. I'm afraid that as much as we might think we do, OTIB users are not fully representative of City fans. I think this is clear to know from any discussions with the majority of City fans who do not post on here. We have 4,700 members on here, and i would take a punt a good 1,000 of them are fans of other teams or fans who do not post. Therefore, OTIB represents the views of about 3,700 City fans, and whilst this does, of course, represent a chunk of City fans, it is not fully representative of the fanbase. Also, i never claimed that my views on Trundle and Noble were the majority view, i said 'many others'. Many others means that there are many others who agree with me. Which i know, from chatting to fellow City fans, is the case. I never, or will not, claim that it is the majority view, but it is certainly a view held by many.

It's strange that you keep referencing the usage of facts in order to attempt to undermine my argument, when the statistics i quoted where correct. Also, yours were not! You claimed Trundle had scored eight in 29 starts, which is simply untrue, so if the argument is one to be based on facts then i think i am on pretty solid ground.

What is clear is stating facts, not half truths.

At the risk of going round in circles, to claim they have played 146 games without emphasising or even insinuating that 48 of those were 15 minute cameos, is I am afraid misleading. Ask some people, see if they agree.

I have explained that I have some experience of the usage of statistics, as far as I know you don't, but still you dispute what I say. Did you tell your teachers you knew more than them at school?!

Finally, I say Trundle has started 29 games and scored 8 goals. If you disagree with that, ask City to correct their website:

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/...7~10018,00.html

The fact that any goals were scored off the bench, as I keep explaining, is nullified by the fact that he gets brought off so often when he does start, so it sort of all cancels out. And unlike you, I made that clear when making putting forward my point of view!

[Lack of Action Man]

Neither should be leaving in my opinion. It is the same for any position on the field be it keeper or striker. You have to have a run of games to get consitency, only making cameo appearances here and there rarely works at this level unless you are the next George Best. I might not be the biggest fan of Noble but I stand by him and think that he does contribute more to our squad than anyone we are likely (this means within budget, wage and attitude reasoning) to replace him with. As for Lee Trundle he may drift towards Swansea a little too much but can you blame the guy? That club gave him his chance as a pro much later in a footballing career than is expected for a player these days.

Both Trundle and Noble have not been used effectively this season which is dissapointing to say the least. If it was me I would be looking to offload those who have not produced the goods in a consistent run. McIndoe sparks to mind as well as Adebola however despite the goal last night Stern John must surely leave at the end of his loan deal. I for one would not pay £1mil for him.

[SecretSam]

We should never have signed Trundle, from what I've seen IMHO a clever player but one who doesn't know when to leave aside his tricks. But I don't see City that much so bow to the opinions of more regular viewers. However, now he is here, we should use his talents - heaven knows, everything else is failing.

And I think Noble's a decent player.

But if they aren't happy and the price is right, let them go. But who to get instead?

[Lack of Action Man]

If its not money related for Basso what possible reason could he have for feeling badly treated by GJ?

Tbh I can't believe Basso would be swayed that much by money anyway, he's a religious guy and drives a 4 year old jeep so you know there has to be a different motive to upset him. He's the number one and his main rival is out on loan so what has he got to be upset about? Bit confusing really

[tinman-is-god]

What is clear is stating facts, not half truths.

At the risk of going round in circles, to claim they have played 146 games without emphasising or even insinuating that 48 of those were 15 minute cameos, is I am afraid misleading. Ask some people, see if they agree.

I have explained that I have some experience of the usage of statistics, as far as I know you don't, but still you dispute what I say. Did you tell your teachers you knew more than them at school?!

Finally, I say Trundle has started 29 games and scored 8 goals. If you disagree with that, ask City to correct their website:

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/page/ProfilesDetail/...7~10018,00.html

The fact that any goals were scored off the bench, as I keep explaining, is nullified by the fact that he gets brought off so often when he does start, so it sort of all cancels out. And unlike you, I made that clear when making putting forward my point of view!

Lee Trundle has scored five goals in 29 starts for BCFC, that is a fact. He has scored eight goals for the club, and three have come from the bench in the games i cited. If the BCFC website is wrong then they will need to change it.

I do think that although you have a background in statistics, this does not entitle me to have an opinion about whether OTIB is fully representative of the fanbase.

Finally, a 15 minute cameo appearence does not necessarily mean that the player can hide behind sub apps for a poor goal record. Darren Byfield, for example, scored five of his eight goals for City from the bench, and was an 'impact player', and LT's performances from the bench cannot go without being analysed. At Ipswich last night, for example, he came on and almost scored. As another poster commented, if we subtract substitute apps from their total games, then we must also, logically, subtract their goals, which is, as I'm sure you agree, a bit ridiculous.

Also, a start is a start and if he gets pulled off after 65mins it is because he, in GJ's view, wasn't doing enough. Which adds more fuel to the fire of why we should consider a bid for him if one comes in.

[Mr Popodopolous]

We should never have signed Trundle, from what I've seen IMHO a clever player but one who doesn't know when to leave aside his tricks. But I don't see City that much so bow to the opinions of more regular viewers. However, now he is here, we should use his talents - heaven knows, everything else is failing.

And I think Noble's a decent player.

But if they aren't happy and the price is right, let them go. But who to get instead?

Thing about Trundle is, he has scored some excellent goals for us...the two S****horpe ones, the one vs Palace in the play off 2nd leg, also the long range effort v Birmingham this year, he is certainly one of our more creative players.

As for Noble, I agree a good player and to me, it is ridiculous that he is not in Central Midfield with Elliott.

[Ron]

Oh dear. Warning coming your way I feel.

You mustn't say "injured" on here.

EDIT: I will join you.

Like Carey wasn't "injured" and McIndoe wasnt "injured" and Noble has never been "injured"?

That sort of "injured"?

It wouldn't surprise me, in the case of McIndoe, at the time I expected it to be so.

[NickJ]

It wouldn't surprise me, in the case of McIndoe, at the time I expected it to be so.

There's a lot of bullshit spoken on here but judging by your replies on this thread I would say you are genuinely in the know and either someone with an axe to grind or very close to someone who has.

So what is at the root cause of all this unrest?

[Ron]

With that you've pretty much exhausted everything I know from bona-fide sources, but it doesn't take an idiot to put two and two together. Johnson's handling of Carle's transfer in the summer was nothing short of disgraceful, while the reasoning behind his departure may have been in the genuine legitimate interests of the club. Carle's ultimatum was to go to Palace or rot in the reserves, after his initial indignation - with a young child and wife moving from a completely different culture 6 months previously, to uproot and start over again was not something he was prepared to do for a club of similar size to us.

This was the first time the glitz of Gary's management fell away from my eyes, there have been numerous times where he has said he's "honest and upfront" or something along those lines, this is simply not true, and it's not as though the players don't catch wind of this. I don't know of anything like this before the end of last season either, which may explain a lot - he worked for two and a half years to create an extraordinary team ethic, but with actions such as these and "we started well", "they threw it away after half time", I'd be confident in saying the dressing room has gone, or is going.

[Frenchay Red]

With that you've pretty much exhausted everything I know from bona-fide sources, but it doesn't take an idiot to put two and two together. Johnson's handling of Carle's transfer in the summer was nothing short of disgraceful, while the reasoning behind his departure may have been in the genuine legitimate interests of the club. Carle's ultimatum was to go to Palace or rot in the reserves, after his initial indignation - with a young child and wife moving from a completely different culture 6 months previously, to uproot and start over again was not something he was prepared to do for a club of similar size to us.

This was the first time the glitz of Gary's management fell away from my eyes, there have been numerous times where he has said he's "honest and upfront" or something along those lines, this is simply not true, and it's not as though the players don't catch wind of this. I don't know of anything like this before the end of last season either, which may explain a lot - he worked for two and a half years to create an extraordinary team ethic, but with actions such as these and "we started well", "they threw it away after half time", I'd be confident in saying the dressing room has gone, or is going.

Wasn't a similar ultimatum reportedly given to Enoch last year when he turned down a mid-season move to Leeds? If so it is pretty unimpressive management tactics. Unfortunately it seems that all is not well in the dressing room and that does not bode well for the rest of the season.

[NickJ]

With that you've pretty much exhausted everything I know from bona-fide sources, but it doesn't take an idiot to put two and two together. Johnson's handling of Carle's transfer in the summer was nothing short of disgraceful, while the reasoning behind his departure may have been in the genuine legitimate interests of the club. Carle's ultimatum was to go to Palace or rot in the reserves, after his initial indignation - with a young child and wife moving from a completely different culture 6 months previously, to uproot and start over again was not something he was prepared to do for a club of similar size to us.

This was the first time the glitz of Gary's management fell away from my eyes, there have been numerous times where he has said he's "honest and upfront" or something along those lines, this is simply not true, and it's not as though the players don't catch wind of this. I don't know of anything like this before the end of last season either, which may explain a lot - he worked for two and a half years to create an extraordinary team ethic, but with actions such as these and "we started well", "they threw it away after half time", I'd be confident in saying the dressing room has gone, or is going.

Carle is what I had in mind. Must admit, hadnt considered the effect on the player's personal life before. However it has occurred to me that there will have been certain ambitious players at the club surprised to say the least at Carle's departure, and there has been an underlying, growing, disenchantment with that ever since.

I was told by an equally bona fide source that the entire club were gobsmacked when GJ told SL he wanted to sell Carle, because he (GJ) thought Carle was not as good as LJ, and he didnt want the club having an expensive substitute on the bench every week.

I think that is the one major mistake GJ has made during his time here, and threatens to undo all the good and hard work he has done before and since.

[cityfan]

So back to Trundle and Noble. Both need to start starting Saturday to help change results over the coming weeks. I would say if they are not selected to start between now and January 1 that both will be on their way if GJ get's bids that he deems acceptable. However, sometimes money is not everything and the loss of skill that is evident and perhaps understood by other team members may be unsettling and prove more damaging than expected.

[Ron]

Carle is what I had in mind. Must admit, hadnt considered the effect on the player's personal life before. However it has occurred to me that there will have been certain ambitious players at the club surprised to say the least at Carle's departure, and there has been an underlying, growing, disenchantment with that ever since.

I was told by an equally bona fide source that the entire club were gobsmacked when GJ told SL he wanted to sell Carle, because he (GJ) thought Carle was not as good as LJ, and he didnt want the club having an expensive substitute on the bench every week.

I think that is the one major mistake GJ has made during his time here, and threatens to undo all the good and hard work he has done before and since.

You would expect them to react as such, the squad seem to have little more regard for Lee Johnson than many members of this forum.

[Nibor]

You would expect them to react as such, the squad seem to have little more regard for Lee Johnson than many members of this forum.

Is that a view that you got from the squad or from one player? I have the opposite impression of how the squad as a whole (apart from one sadly mistaken player) view Lee Johnson.

[cityfan]

Is that a view that you got from the squad or from one player? I have the opposite impression of how the squad as a whole (apart from one sadly mistaken player) view Lee Johnson.

Whose the sadly mistaken player?

[Ron]

Is that a view that you got from the squad or from one player? I have the opposite impression of how the squad as a whole (apart from one sadly mistaken player) view Lee Johnson.

I've heard it directly from one, and from a close friend who met another. One I could fully understand directly questioning him, the other I was more surprised by.

[sh1t_ref_again]

Not sure I fully understand the Trundle god like stature amonst some city fans, yes has some neat tricks, scored a couple of good goals, but to me does not look up to championship standard, not quick enough and against defenders who seen those tricks before has looked exposed.

I like the player, but hes not the answer to our problems

Noble should be in the team.

[cityfan]

Not sure I fully understand the Trundle god like stature amonst some city fans, yes has some neat tricks, scored a couple of good goals, but to me does not look up to championship standard, not quick enough and against defenders who seen those tricks before has looked exposed.

I like the player, but hes not the answer to our problems

Noble should be in the team.

If he doesn't look up to Championship standard it will be because he doesn't get Championship standard supply. Even so, he has a better footballing brain than most and still looks to have more quality than any of our forwards. You'd starve if you didn't get fed. Where's the difference?

[windmillhillred]

You would expect them to react as such, the squad seem to have little more regard for Lee Johnson than many members of this forum.

Yea, have a look at how he was shunned when he scored against Southampton...

Oh.

[sh1t_ref_again]

If he doesn't look up to Championship standard it will be because he doesn't get Championship standard supply. Even so, he has a better footballing brain than most and still looks to have more quality than any of our forwards. You'd starve if you didn't get fed. Where's the difference?

whilst its easy to blame supply, when Trundle has the ball or a chance rarley does he show the quality you talk of. In his prime would have been great to have had here, but that was a few years ago. Only wish he had showed the class we all expected, as it would have been good to watch.

[Ron]

Yea, have a look at how he was shunned when he scored against Southampton...

Oh.

I can see it now - "MANAGER'S SON SHUNNED BY TEAM MATES AFTER SCORING WINNING GOAL ON SKY".

Think, my friend.

[mozo]

NickJ talked about how his opinion comes from what his eyes tell him rather than convoluted stats, and I do too

However, as much as I like Trunds and desperately want him to succeed, I've seen him play badly far too often.

As for Noble, I really doubt the ambition of a supposed super-talented player that happily plays for a team's reserves. If he really wanted, he could have left ages ago and played regular football elsewhere.

Finally, would Reading, Birmingham or Wolves sign either of these players? Basso, Carey or Elliott perhaps, but not Trunds or Nobes. Tells you summat, if we're hoping to reach their standards.

[Loderingo]

If he doesn't look up to Championship standard it will be because he doesn't get Championship standard supply. Even so, he has a better footballing brain than most and still looks to have more quality than any of our forwards. You'd starve if you didn't get fed. Where's the difference?

And if the supply is poor then you need to take your chances when you get them. Trundle missed two gilt edge chances against Sheff U which could have won us the game and by all accounts he missed another very good chance last night.

[cityfan]

So back to Trundle and Noble. Both need to start starting Saturday to help change results over the coming weeks. I would say if they are not selected to start between now and January 1 that both will be on their way if GJ get's bids that he deems acceptable. However, sometimes money is not everything and the loss of skill that is evident and perhaps understood by other team members may be unsettling and prove more damaging than expected.

I'll reply to myself.

After that selection today, for me, Trundle and Noble are on their way.

What a waste of talent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NickJ]

Lee Trundle has scored five goals in 29 starts for BCFC, that is a fact. He has scored eight goals for the club, and three have come from the bench in the games i cited. If the BCFC website is wrong then they will need to change it.

I do think that although you have a background in statistics, this does not entitle me to have an opinion about whether OTIB is fully representative of the fanbase.

Finally, a 15 minute cameo appearence does not necessarily mean that the player can hide behind sub apps for a poor goal record. Darren Byfield, for example, scored five of his eight goals for City from the bench, and was an 'impact player', and LT's performances from the bench cannot go without being analysed. At Ipswich last night, for example, he came on and almost scored. As another poster commented, if we subtract substitute apps from their total games, then we must also, logically, subtract their goals, which is, as I'm sure you agree, a bit ridiculous.

Also, a start is a start and if he gets pulled off after 65mins it is because he, in GJ's view, wasn't doing enough. Which adds more fuel to the fire of why we should consider a bid for him if one comes in.

Nobes and Trundle came on for 9 minutes yesterday, so obviously they have now played 150 games and only scored 17 between them.

Oh how crap they are.

Oh BTW in those 9 minutes Noble made the only run at the opposition defence by any of our midfield in the entire game (winning a free kick) and the Wednesday defence had to pull Trundle back by his shirt to stop him.

[cityfan]

Why do we think that so many of us in the crowd think Trundle and Noble are the solution?

I was in my local shop yesterday and asked them to remind me which one was the City fan. Anyway, discussion unfolded and without prompt from me he wanted to see Noble and Trundle in the side, was fed up with McIndoe on the left and his poor performances and we had many other similar opinions.

GJ is the paid manager. But many of us have had an insight and interest in football for at least as many year's and nearly all opinion supports Noble and Trundle given a run in their preferred and proven roles.

Madness to let them go in January or any other time without playing them both in the roles they were bought in for and in the same team. Without doing so, you have no idea whether your money was well spent or not. And even if there is a slight personality clash or difference this shouldn't impede their selection.

In professional terms both are quite fresh. Trundle was late to the game and well, Noble doesn't play does he?

Lastly, I don't get the support for Maynard saying 'he will come good' but not the same comments for Trundle. Both face the same issues which are

1) Style of play

2) Lack of type of supply needed

The difference thereafter in my opinion is that Trundle is more experienced, a more intelligent player and overall brings more to the team

[tinman-is-god]

Nobes and Trundle came on for 9 minutes yesterday, so obviously they have now played 150 games and only scored 17 between them.

Oh how crap they are.

Oh BTW in those 9 minutes Noble made the only run at the opposition defence by any of our midfield in the entire game (winning a free kick) and the Wednesday defence had to pull Trundle back by his shirt to stop him.

Check through my posts and you will see that I am happy to admit that Trundle and Noble have their moments of being excellent for the club. Whilst they were the colours of City I will support them 100% and I was there on Wednesday and Saturday and gave LT a standing ovation when he entered the field of play both games. I did this because I want him to score, because he plays for the club.

A rather large amount of OTIB users seem to believe that if anyone has an opinion which is contary to believing that LT is the next Pele, then this means we don't want him to succeed. We do. I actively want to be wrong. Because if i am wrong, he will regularly score for the club and hold down a first team position, but my perception from the stands is that he will not achieve this level of consistency because he cannot, for one reason or another, produce the stuff on a regular basis.

I am not saying they are crap, please don't misinterpret what i am saying as having an agenda. I just think that the pair do not have the consistency in them to hold down regular spots in the starting XI and if the right bid comes in, we should consider.

But, to reitirate, i want to be wrong. I want LT to play and score, and prove me wrong. I am 100% behind every player that puts 100% in, and both LT and DN do so, i just don't think they quite have the consistency to justify their position in the starting XI, and if the right bid comes in, we should be tempted. But i will cheer them, sing their names and clap them as loadly as I can because I am a loyal fan and I want City to win. I would, and have not, critiscised the players from the stands because that is counter productive and what part timers love doing. I am not saying they are crap, that is an utter misunderstanding of my argument and like you, i want them to do well for the club. Lets hope i'm wrong and you're right, cus if you are, then i'll be a lot happier every Saturday evening!

[NickJ]

Check through my posts and you will see that I am happy to admit that Trundle and Noble have their moments of being excellent for the club. Whilst they were the colours of City I will support them 100% and I was there on Wednesday and Saturday and gave LT a standing ovation when he entered the field of play both games. I did this because I want him to score, because he plays for the club.

A rather large amount of OTIB users seem to believe that if anyone has an opinion which is contary to believing that LT is the next Pele, then this means we don't want him to succeed. We do. I actively want to be wrong. Because if i am wrong, he will regularly score for the club and hold down a first team position, but my perception from the stands is that he will not achieve this level of consistency because he cannot, for one reason or another, produce the stuff on a regular basis.

I am not saying they are crap, please don't misinterpret what i am saying as having an agenda. I just think that the pair do not have the consistency in them to hold down regular spots in the starting XI and if the right bid comes in, we should consider.

But, to reitirate, i want to be wrong. I want LT to play and score, and prove me wrong. I am 100% behind every player that puts 100% in, and both LT and DN do so, i just don't think they quite have the consistency to justify their position in the starting XI, and if the right bid comes in, we should be tempted. But i will cheer them, sing their names and clap them as loadly as I can because I am a loyal fan and I want City to win. I would, and have not, critiscised the players from the stands because that is counter productive and what part timers love doing. I am not saying they are crap, that is an utter misunderstanding of my argument and like you, i want them to do well for the club. Lets hope i'm wrong and you're right, cus if you are, then i'll be a lot happier every Saturday evening!

Don't think I'll get the chance to be right mate because Johnson isnt going to play them!

So in a way I hope you're right!

[SUPER REDS]

Total rubbish two of the players have great ability can hold the ball up bring others in play