Lee F Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Whilst i am not debating the point of view the rest of your post portrays, the fact of the matter is this: They are breaking the law. I for one would happily let them go at it if knowone else suffers from it, however it seems that often isnt the case, innocents get caught up in it, regardless of whether the perpetrators want them to or not, fog of war is still prevelent in this scenario. Look what happened in Nottingham a few years back, pubs and cars smashed up, people counting the cost of others 'pastimes', and that is why it is ilegal, it is never victimless. You may say these are NOT the real hooligans, again, as true as this may be the fact remains that whilst the 'real' elements are left alone with 'each to their own' in mind, the foloowers will conitnue to try and emulate them. As you say, the younger 'softcore' element who want to show off may not want to turn up to an empty field to fight one on one, but they will try to portray their 'hooliganism' in other forms such as the 'bravado' of chucking a brick throw a car or shop window or by fighting in gangs that outnumber their victims. This is a by product of the high esteem they hold the 'real' hooligans' in, and as such why the 'real' hooligans' in my opinion still cannot be left alone. I do agree it wont dissapear, however i also don't believe the 'each to their own' approach will work when trying to limit the number of either true or 'wanabe' elements. Whilst you may say that many of the weekend fighters do not spill over to fighting in general, i cant say i believe that is correct for many of them. Violence is a habit and i doubt many who participate in football violence would be too far from trouble if it rears its head in a non football situation. I may be wrong, however those who i have known that are involved, some fairly heavily, in the hooligan scene are most certainly known to be fighting on a regular basis wherever they go and what ever they do, football related or not. To be honest you are now heading in the direction I am atempting to show you. Nottingham, your example was vandlism and not hooliganism. See the people who commit these crimes are vandals and not hooligans. The possible/alledged people that smashed the window on the bus in Reading are vandals and not hooligans. Hooliganism is not victimless agreed, however I would say 99% of the victims are other hooligans. Where as victims of vandals are everyone and anyone. Two totally different types of character. I do not really agree that all or even a majority of real hooligans are heavily involved in violence outside of football. I know many who are not. For instance I know a group of 4 males aged between 25-40 who have previously been involved in football violence with other like minded individuals at football (not in or even close to the grounds I might add), from the 4 of them, 2 are married with children, the occupations of these are - Accountant, Civil servant, Bricklayer and Printer. They are self sufficent, hold down good jobs, family lives, pay taxes and can in no way be classed as a drain on society and are law abiding in 99% of their lives yet as a release chose to meet with people like themselves and fight. They then go back to thier lives. That is the meaning of each to their own. Their choice, no innocent victims. illeagal yes, but there are a lot worse crimes being commited every minute of every day. 'Wannabes' are just that, and regardless of what they say or type on forums, have never and will never become involved in anything more than bantering and the terrace culture of clothes etc. I see more 'ne'er do wells' hanging around local shops intimidating old ladies and vandalising phone boxes than at football matches. These kids are not a product of football but a product of living in the UK in the 21st century. I will maintain these kids would not be acting up if they did not have 40 police and 25 metres of netting between them and the opposition fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee F Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Ferret Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hooliganism is not victimless agreed, however I would say 99% of the victims are other hooligans. Don't you just love made up statistics! I have seen football hooligans attacking random people in the street before/after games loads of times I guess these must have all been the 1% you mention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee F Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Don't you just love made up statistics! I have seen football hooligans attacking random people in the street before/after games loads of times I guess these must have all been the 1% you mention I don't think that is a common case at all. Of football hooligans that I know and have known, not one would attack a random fan. That is not to say it has not happened but it is not a regular occurance as you are leaning towards by saying 'loads of times'. If you have I would hope you have aided these innocent victims and or called the police for help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 As i said Lee, these people you have labelled as 'vandals' may well be exactly that. However as i also said and i still think it stands as correct, they are still products of 'hooligans' and in attempting to be or appear like those they look up to it just so happens they become vandals whilst doing it. As it stands you appear to have known a different kind of hooligan as i have, i know those you have described exist and may possibly exist in large numbers, but those i have come across are not in the same mould and are most certainly ARE 'hooligans'. Many have served and one is currently serving a prison term for football and non-football related violence, some have had passports removed during international tournaments etc etc. As i say they are mostly, not all, but mostly all involved in violence outside of the footballing context. They may be the generation inbetween the two we have talked about, as they are NOT the older genreration but are not the younger one either,maybe this is where the difference is? They would be early to mid 30's on average. I have to say i don't believe it is as minimal as 1% the of victims being innocent. I would say it is alot larger than that. Not in terms of getting caught up in mass fights, but in less, but still unpleasant situations. Again, due to the 'vandals' possibly on more occasions than not, but as stated i don't believe the 'hooligans' and 'vandals' to be mutualy exclusive, they are indirectly linked and the latter is the product of the first, whether intentional on the 'hooligans' part or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee F Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 In fairness Dan I can see and think you are right in a certain context. I do think we are speaking from experiences of different types of hooligan possibly. I just think that there are too many generalizations when this topic is discussed. There are people that are making sweeping statements based on zero knowledge of what is a fairly underground scene. I am not convinced by the connection even if indirect between hooligans and vandals, as I previously said there are more vandals between the age of 14-18 within 3 miles of my house on any given night than there is at a football match. I still do not think these kids are emulating hooligans as the hooligans I have known do not like to get involved in mindless vandalism as it attracts unwanted attention which makes the purpose of their hooliganism extremely difficult to carry out. That is not to say hooligans cannot be vandals, just not the ones I have known. The hooligans have become a smaller more organised group due to the advancement in detection techniques and the punishments handed out, but it is still there and will always be, which is why I say as long as it is not effecting the general fan it is not as big a problem as it is made out to be and I still believe hooligans look for and fight with hooligans in the main so let them get on with it. Where as vandalism is a worse crime in my opinion as it is a problem that effects many innocent victims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 In fairness Dan I can see and think you are right in a certain context. I do think we are speaking from experiences of different types of hooligan possibly. I just think that there are too many generalizations when this topic is discussed. There are people that are making sweeping statements based on zero knowledge of what is a fairly underground scene. I am not convinced by the connection even if indirect between hooligans and vandals, as I previously said there are more vandals between the age of 14-18 within 3 miles of my house on any given night than there is at a football match. I still do not think these kids are emulating hooligans as the hooligans I have known do not like to get involved in mindless vandalism as it attracts unwanted attention which makes the purpose of their hooliganism extremely difficult to carry out. That is not to say hooligans cannot be vandals, just not the ones I have known. The hooligans have become a smaller more organised group due to the advancement in detection techniques and the punishments handed out, but it is still there and will always be, which is why I say as long as it is not effecting the general fan it is not as big a problem as it is made out to be and I still believe hooligans look for and fight with hooligans in the main so let them get on with it. Where as vandalism is a worse crime in my opinion as it is a problem that effects many innocent victims. I totally agree that there are far worse crimes being committed and that in general the scum of today are not anything to do with football hooligans and many vandals are not linked at all. But that doesnt mean imo that football hooligans should be left to their own devices. I also agree that as you say, vandalism was not the intent or actions of any of the old style hard core holligans and still isnt today to a large extent, they are NOT interested in that. BUT my whole point about these vandals 'emulating' their idols is that, as you say many of them are not prepared to go the full hog and become invlolved in full fighting and would shy away from it, but that in itslef creates this secondary problem. They have to do soemthing to show their bravado and in not 'fighting' this maifests itself in other forms, the vandalism, the smashing up of pubs when they know there are not REAL hooligans about. This is where it affects the innocents who are caught in it, as the 'vandals' are not prepared to do it anywhere else other than where they feel safe, that being unfortunately around those who are NOT going to fight back or do anything to stop them. They achieve their aim of 'playing' the hooligan, and looking 'hard' infront of their mates without any consequences and subsequently innocent bystanders and shop/bar owners etc suffer because of it. 'Emulating' is the wrong word possibly, more over it is that these people want to 'pretend' they are something they are not, they like to act the hooligan but in effect they are not, and therefore do not play by the actual 'hooligans' rules, such as the 'rules' you have mentioned including NOT starting on random fans. not being engaged in vandalism. It is in my opinion all part of the same problem and must therefore be tackled universally. If was as simple as the real hooligans being completely cut off from the rest of the world then yeah fine, let them be, but i don't think it is that simple. Thier existance continues to influence the younger generations, who may be a different type of 'hooligan', who may be the 'vandal' mould, BUT the continued presense of real hooligans does in my opinion breed the other to a large extent. I guess its an evolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djc Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 you're just embarrasing yourself now. I don't want to be guilty of lazy generalisations, but let me guess you have a fight every saturday night in town? and it makes you feel hard and scary acting like a lout? you do realise the people who stand watching that sort of thing are ALL talking about how much of a MORON you are right? people like you are the reason this country is going down the pan, I HATE ROVERS, BUT I HATE CHAVS LIKE YOU MORE. yet you generalize anyway ,1. I'm 43 years old 2. i havent been in town proper for years unless you class shopping down cabot circus 3. i don't need to look hard and scary 4. i work and pay taxes so do not feel like i contribute to the country going down the pan ,i think the bankers and politicians do a fine job without my help and 5. I'm not never have been and never will be a chav so my friend you are talking out of you ars*hole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 yet you generalize anyway ,1. I'm 43 years old 2. i havent been in town proper for years unless you class shopping down cabot circus 3. i don't need to look hard and scary Let me guess, you are hard and scary? :noexpression: 4. i work and pay taxes so do not feel like i contribute to the country going down the pan ,i think the bankers and politicians do a fine job without my help and 5. I'm not never have been and never will be a chav so my friend you are talking out of you ars*hole Act it then. just because you pay taxes doesn't mean you have any right to be a lout. WHAT THE HELL DO BANKERS AND POLITICIANS HAVE TO DO WITH PROMOTING VIOLENCE? seperate kettles of fish petal. but hey, one day a thug like yourself will go too far, maybe seriously hurt another human being. then you'll go where you belong, behind some big iron bars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djc Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Act it then. just because you pay taxes doesn't mean you have any right to be a lout. WHAT THE HELL DO BANKERS AND POLITICIANS HAVE TO DO WITH PROMOTING VIOLENCE? seperate kettles of fish petal. but hey, one day a thug like yourself will go too far, maybe seriously hurt another human being. then you'll go where you belong, behind some big iron bars. you accused me of helping the country go to the dogs which i don't and you do not even know me so how can you say I'm a lout/thug and just out of interest how old are you because you come across as someone whos about 70 also you HATE the rovers ,whys that and surely if you hate them that much wouldnt that increase the chance of you being violent towards them or is it a grown up hate where you can sing about fighting them and hating them as long as you never have to go face to face with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider mad Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Just like to say to all the people jumping to conclusions about the 5 people arrested and saying that they are guilty, out of the 5 people one of them is a good friend of mine another is my brother and the 48 year old is my brothers mate. it's true that windows were smashed on the bus BUT 3 of the 5 were INNOCENT! my mate had his arm cut by a piece of broken glass and my brother wrapped his jacked around his arm to stop it bleeding the police seen blood on both my brother and my mate and decided to arrest all 3 of them, they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time!!! this ruined there day as they are not the type of people to have anything to do with any type of football violence or vandolisim!! For the people who are calling thm scum and saying that they are not welcom anymore get your fact right before accusing people there are always 2 sides to every story! as printed they were all released without charge because they were INNOCENT! does that not mean anything to you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Just like to say to all the people jumping to conclusions about the 5 people arrested and saying that they are guilty, out of the 5 people one of them is a good friend of mine another is my brother and the 48 year old is my brothers mate. it's true that windows were smashed on the bus BUT 3 of the 5 were INNOCENT! my mate had his arm cut by a piece of broken glass and my brother wrapped his jacked around his arm to stop it bleeding the police seen blood on both my brother and my mate and decided to arrest all 3 of them, they were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time!!! this ruined there day as they are not the type of people to have anything to do with any type of football violence or vandolisim!! For the people who are calling thm scum and saying that they are not welcom anymore get your fact right before accusing people there are always 2 sides to every story! as printed they were all released without charge because they were INNOCENT! does that not mean anything to you! That is shame mate, but in many ways it proves the point that some of us are trying to make. Innocents DO get caught up in this kind of situation. As for their arrest, it is unfortunate but really what option do the police have when faced with that situation? It is always likely that anyone at the scene of a crime that is covered in blood is going to be arrested, even if not guilty i am sure they made a valid contribution to the investigation?? Its a shame for the, but again as i say, it appears they are the innocents caught up in the mess that the 'scum' have created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider mad Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 That is shame mate, but in many ways it proves the point that some of us are trying to make. Innocents DO get caught up in this kind of situation. As for their arrest, it is unfortunate but really what option do the police have when faced with that situation? It is always likely that anyone at the scene of a crime that is covered in blood is going to be arrested, even if not guilty i am sure they made a valid contribution to the investigation?? Its a shame for the, but again as i say, it appears they are the innocents caught up in the mess that the 'scum' have created. I agree but it annoys to to see people saying on here that none of them are welcome and that they are scum, not wanted at city etc etc without knowing all if any of the facts, some people jus jump to conclusions. my bro and mates were gutted that they missed the game, a day they had been looking forward to, due to a few idiots that got away with it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I agree but it annoys to to see people saying on here that none of them are welcome and that they are scum, not wanted at city etc etc without knowing all if any of the facts, some people jus jump to conclusions. my bro and mates were gutted that they missed the game, a day they had been looking forward to, due to a few idiots that got away with it! And thats the whole point isnt it, its these few idiots that continue to ruin peoples footballing experience. It is high time that the majority of the City fans who want to continue to enjoy trips like the one at Reading make an active choice to help themselves. It is my expereince that the police want the same as we do, a ridding of the scrotes that cause us and them problems and misery. We as fans need to work with the police in attempting to 'out' these morons, i don't know but how much, if any cohesion is their between city fans, stewards and police with regards to indentfying the idiots? People know who they are, people must have seen what happened on the bus for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodbarmyarmy Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 my bro and mates were gutted that they missed the game, a day they had been looking forward to, due to a few idiots that got away with it! And there is the point summed up in 6 words If we stand around and do nothing when witnessing these sort of things then the cowards who do it will always get away with it and the rest of us will suffer with Bubble trips heavy policing & escorts etc When is the last time any poster out there reported someone to the police? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider mad Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Well I'm guessing that whilst the people were smashing the bus up it didn't cross anyones mind to ask what their names were to be able to report them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red man dan Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Well I'm guessing that whilst the people were smashing the bus up it didn't cross anyones mind to ask what their names were to be able to report them! Fair enough, BUT did anyone 'HELP' the police when they arrived? Or was it an 'us against them' situation where by the public were imediately on their guard? I don't know, i am genuinely asking? From what i can see on this thread, the responce has been almost totally one that leans towards suggsting nothing happened and that City fans didnt do it, how does this help the Police or the club to find these morons. If the responce from City fans at the incident was similar to the responce that we have seen on this forum, then it is not at all surprising that the people responcible were not caught and no charges were made. There is a small window of opportunity for police in these situations to gather the 'right' information to make 'informed' arrests. If they don't get the help they need from the public and are met with a wall of silence or indeed a bit of hostility, then that opportunity will dissapear completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 you accused me of helping the country go to the dogs which i don't and you do not even know me so how can you say I'm a lout/thug and just out of interest how old are you because you come across as someone whos about 70 also you HATE the rovers ,whys that and surely if you hate them that much wouldnt that increase the chance of you being violent towards them or is it a grown up hate where you can sing about fighting them and hating them as long as you never have to go face to face with them lout/thug/promoting violence like its "cool". ALL THE SAME PATHETIC THING out of interest? I'm 18 so your judge of character is worse than your immature view of violence i may hate them, because of what they represent, doesn't mean i sing anything other than PRO CITY SONGS! thats what i go to Ashton Gate to do, SUPPORT MY TEAM! i couldn't care less what happens to R*vers. THE ONLY TIME I EVEN THINK ABOUT THE SAGS IS WHEN THE RESULTS ARE READ, and yes, I give out a little cheer each week when they lose look mate, you're clearly a really clever and astute fellow, and you must be so proud to hold such moronic views. Neanderthal's such as yourself continue to not only ruin football for NORMAL PLEASANT FOLK like 99% of the AG crowd. the only thing you idiots manage to inflate other than your ego's is ticket prices, policing costs and the amount of FRICKING BUBBLE MATCHES. GROW UP, STOP BEING SO SELFISH AND IMMATURE AND JOIN A BOXING GYM IF YOU WANT A FIGHT, FOOTBALL IS ABOUT KICKING A CIRCULAR OBJECT INTO A GOAL. NOT BEING A THUG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest djc Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 lout/thug/promoting violence like its "cool". ALL THE SAME PATHETIC THING out of interest? I'm 18 so your judge of character is worse than your immature view of violence i may hate them, because of what they represent, doesn't mean i sing anything other than PRO CITY SONGS! thats what i go to Ashton Gate to do, SUPPORT MY TEAM! i couldn't care less what happens to R*vers. THE ONLY TIME I EVEN THINK ABOUT THE SAGS IS WHEN THE RESULTS ARE READ, and yes, I give out a little cheer each week when they lose look mate, you're clearly a really clever and astute fellow, and you must be so proud to hold such moronic views. Neanderthal's such as yourself continue to not only ruin football for NORMAL PLEASANT FOLK like 99% of the AG crowd. the only thing you idiots manage to inflate other than your ego's is ticket prices, policing costs and the amount of FRICKING BUBBLE MATCHES. GROW UP, STOP BEING SO SELFISH AND IMMATURE AND JOIN A BOXING GYM IF YOU WANT A FIGHT, FOOTBALL IS ABOUT KICKING A CIRCULAR OBJECT INTO A GOAL. NOT BEING A THUG i bow to your superior experience son,you are obviously not a normal healthy 18 year old and were probably bullied at school but carry on with your blinkered vision on life that all is nice and rosey i know who i would rather have by my side at brum tonight but hey each to their own as long as we get 3 points because like it or not we both support the same club,and in my case since 73 when you werent even a twinkle in your dads eye,i also wonder how often you would go down if we were bottom of the 2nd division and you were married with kids lets hope we never have to find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee F Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 lout/thug/promoting violence like its "cool". ALL THE SAME PATHETIC THING out of interest? I'm 18 so your judge of character is worse than your immature view of violence i may hate them, because of what they represent, doesn't mean i sing anything other than PRO CITY SONGS! thats what i go to Ashton Gate to do, SUPPORT MY TEAM! i couldn't care less what happens to R*vers. THE ONLY TIME I EVEN THINK ABOUT THE SAGS IS WHEN THE RESULTS ARE READ, and yes, I give out a little cheer each week when they lose look mate, you're clearly a really clever and astute fellow, and you must be so proud to hold such moronic views. Neanderthal's such as yourself continue to not only ruin football for NORMAL PLEASANT FOLK like 99% of the AG crowd. the only thing you idiots manage to inflate other than your ego's is ticket prices, policing costs and the amount of FRICKING BUBBLE MATCHES. GROW UP, STOP BEING SO SELFISH AND IMMATURE AND JOIN A BOXING GYM IF YOU WANT A FIGHT, FOOTBALL IS ABOUT KICKING A CIRCULAR OBJECT INTO A GOAL. NOT BEING A THUG Wooahh there! Slow down! He has not promoted it like its cool, to be fair he gave an opinion. If you only sing pro City songs you are in a minority as a lot of fans with no connection to football violence sing other songs where Sags die etc. It is banter and immature of you to suggest otherwise. To accuse him of moronic views because you do not agree with them is a poor argument. Name calling such as neandrethal is childish as is calling him an idiot. Can you prove this chap is in anyway associated with football violence? Because that is pretty much what you are claiming. Just be sensible and grown up enough yourself to understand life for an 18yr old in 2009 is very far removed from life as an 18yr old in the 70's & 80's. You are applying a standard of the times now against then which is just never going to work. You have no idea of what it was to be a football fan in the 70's and 80's apart from hearsay so please accept not every one will share your views on all topics and it is not wrong for people to completely disagree. Your post could very much be seen as aggressive which is obviously something you deplore, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 lout/thug/promoting violence like its "cool". ALL THE SAME PATHETIC THING out of interest? I'm 18 so your judge of character is worse than your immature view of violence i may hate them, because of what they represent, doesn't mean i sing anything other than PRO CITY SONGS! thats what i go to Ashton Gate to do, SUPPORT MY TEAM! i couldn't care less what happens to R*vers. THE ONLY TIME I EVEN THINK ABOUT THE SAGS IS WHEN THE RESULTS ARE READ, and yes, I give out a little cheer each week when they lose look mate, you're clearly a really clever and astute fellow, and you must be so proud to hold such moronic views. Neanderthal's such as yourself continue to not only ruin football for NORMAL PLEASANT FOLK like 99% of the AG crowd. the only thing you idiots manage to inflate other than your ego's is ticket prices, policing costs and the amount of FRICKING BUBBLE MATCHES. GROW UP, STOP BEING SO SELFISH AND IMMATURE AND JOIN A BOXING GYM IF YOU WANT A FIGHT, FOOTBALL IS ABOUT KICKING A CIRCULAR OBJECT INTO A GOAL. NOT BEING A THUG You are completely wrong there....its a spherical object. Circular? Bloody 18 year olds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Am I reading this thread right? The hooligan apologists are claiming that the 'proper' hooligans all dash off and fight in a remote field somewhere, all in the name of Bristol City? That is one of the most ridiculous notions I've ever heard of, and if true only makes the whole enterprise even more ridiculous. It certainly doesn't detract from the fact that Football as a whole is made a much more unpleasant experience by the actions of the idiot scum (and that's not an insult, it's the truth) that smash up pubs, break windows etc. Innocent bystanders may not ever be attacked directly but are often caught up in the midst of what is happening around them. These people are not wanted at or around anything to do with Bristol City FC by the overwhelming majority of supporters. If the overly aggressive thugs that fight out in these remote fields miles from anywhere really want to do it please stop doing it in the name of Bristol City. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, why not just join a boxing club for crying out loud? Some of the apologists also like to claim that there would be no atmosphere without the hooligans. I'd just like to say that the threat of imminent violence did indeed produce an electric atmosphere in the seventies and eighties, but at too much of a cost. Whilst the hooligans may not have been directly responsible, their actions produced the conditions at football that caused events such as Heysel, Hillsborough and several other tragedies. Do you really think a few punch-ups is worth it? The current East End is a fine example of what can be done without resorting to violence, and whilst I feared that the idiot scum would take it over and ruin it for everyone else thankfully this hasn't happened and fair play to the organisers in there for this. I will admit that some of the songs do indeed have hooligan roots/undertones, but 99.9% of the people that sing these songs are quite capable of realising them for what they are, songs and chants, nothing else. P.S. This subject does wind me up, and I have on an earlier thread used the term 'crawl under a rock and die'. It wasn't a literal wish of death upon these people, more just a turn of speech. If I upset anyone with this I apologise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm not saying smashing buses was right or clever but if every lad that liked a row got banned our home gates would drop and our away support would definately drop And Bristol City and football in general would be so, so much better for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Am I reading this thread right? The hooligan apologists are claiming that the 'proper' hooligans all dash off and fight in a remote field somewhere, all in the name of Bristol City? That is one of the most ridiculous notions I've ever heard of, and if true only makes the whole enterprise even more ridiculous. It certainly doesn't detract from the fact that Football as a whole is made a much more unpleasant experience by the actions of the idiot scum (and that's not an insult, it's the truth) that smash up pubs, break windows etc. Innocent bystanders may not ever be attacked directly but are often caught up in the midst of what is happening around them. These people are not wanted at or around anything to do with Bristol City FC by the overwhelming majority of supporters. If the overly aggressive thugs that fight out in these remote fields miles from anywhere really want to do it please stop doing it in the name of Bristol City. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, why not just join a boxing club for crying out loud? Some of the apologists also like to claim that there would be no atmosphere without the hooligans. I'd just like to say that the threat of imminent violence did indeed produce an electric atmosphere in the seventies and eighties, but at too much of a cost. Whilst the hooligans may not have been directly responsible, their actions produced the conditions at football that caused events such as Heysel, Hillsborough and several other tragedies. Do you really think a few punch-ups is worth it? The current East End is a fine example of what can be done without resorting to violence, and whilst I feared that the idiot scum would take it over and ruin it for everyone else thankfully this hasn't happened and fair play to the organisers in there for this. I will admit that some of the songs do indeed have hooligan roots/undertones, but 99.9% of the people that sing these songs are quite capable of realising them for what they are, songs and chants, nothing else. P.S. This subject does wind me up, and I have on an earlier thread used the term 'crawl under a rock and die'. It wasn't a literal wish of death upon these people, more just a turn of speech. If I upset anyone with this I apologise. Funniest comment I've read on here was when there was trouble at a match and City had played poorly. Dan of the Dolman said "at least they showed a bit of fight" strange comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary cornes Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Funniest comment I've read on here was when there was trouble at a match and City had played poorly. Dan of the Dolman said "at least they showed a bit of fight" strange comment I was supprised when i got to reading on found out everyone thought we caused trouble at away games then heard about this when i got home. someone i know got band from city for fighting etc and he has regreated evry bit of it, its not good clever or anything to do with bristol city or football, why do it and give the proper fans a bad rep away from home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punnett Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 The thread is becoming a hoolie v's fan thread where there can never be any common ground. It is true that many so called 'Hooligans' are actual die hard fans. It is also not true they are all 'Chavs'. They are from all walks of life and are a massive cross section of the general population. Young,old, married, professional workers, unemployed etc etc. Just like any other fan. The difference is that they also like to have a physical confrontation with like minded people from other teams. You are correct it is not the 80's but it is still a part of football whether you like it or not. It will never be totally eradicated from the game as there are too many people that feel it is a part of following thier team and is an enjoyable part of thier personal matchday experience. I think given the recent changes to the punishments handed out plus the high profile police presence at games the chance of being caught in a random act of hooliganism is extremely high however there is also an underground of real 'Hooligans' who will get their kicks away from grounds and nothing will ever get reported as it is a real 'In the know' situation due to the resulting fallout should they be caught. It is a fact of life that as long as there is football there will be fans who like to fight other fans. It should not effect anyone who chooses to experience following thier team in their own way. I think the issue is blurred when young fans are wearing certain labels of clothing and chant certain chants. Be real, these are in no way hooligans just kids showing off and bantering. The problem is made worse with such large segregated areas and heavier police presence in grounds. If the kids who do it really thought that there was a possibility of the opposition fans getting anywhere near them in a physical way they would not do it, it is just playground antics. It is an issue that has been discussed a million times that has no solution due to people wanting to do their own thing their own way. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but they cannot all be labled Chavs that kick off in town on a weekend! I do not think for one mnute that any fan that chooses to fight opposition fans would be at all interested in intimidating or getting into a row with the general fan from another club. The real hooligans from different clubs pretty much know who each other are and the violence is not a random act. Each to thier own I say, if a group of people want to fight with another willing group of people let them get on with it. It happens week in and week out all over the country yet because a bus has been damaged it is blamed on hooligans without any thought or evidence to proove it. Only just read this Lee - brilliant, spot on mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Wooahh there! Slow down! He has not promoted it like its cool, to be fair he gave an opinion. If you only sing pro City songs you are in a minority as a lot of fans with no connection to football violence sing other songs where Sags die etc. It is banter and immature of you to suggest otherwise. To accuse him of moronic views because you do not agree with them is a poor argument. Name calling such as neandrethal is childish as is calling him an idiot. Can you prove this chap is in anyway associated with football violence? Because that is pretty much what you are claiming. Just be sensible and grown up enough yourself to understand life for an 18yr old in 2009 is very far removed from life as an 18yr old in the 70's & 80's. You are applying a standard of the times now against then which is just never going to work. You have no idea of what it was to be a football fan in the 70's and 80's apart from hearsay so please accept not every one will share your views on all topics and it is not wrong for people to completely disagree. Your post could very much be seen as aggressive which is obviously something you deplore, isn't it? Some good posts from you mate, i don't actually think some of the younguns on here actually understand though. They will never know what it was like for us going to Football in the 70's and 80's,and they also don't understand the Terrace Culture scene. Going to Away games ( especially) in the 70's and 80's you had to be ready to fight fire with fire,if you werent ready to "look after yourself" then you were in trouble.Going to a lot of places in those days you were constantly under attack ( and i mean attack). For a lot of the older lot (40's and 50's) this has always stayed with us. Some on here still think that if you don't wear colours to games and like to wear "nice" clothing, this makes you a thug!! What they fail to understand is that this was our way in the 70's and 80's and thats just the way we were bred!!. I take my kids to games now, and stay away from where i know there is potential trouble. Terrace culture IS part of Football, but some people don't understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punnett Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Some good posts from you mate, i don't actually think some of the younguns on here actually understand though. They will never know what it was like for us going to Football in the 70's and 80's,and they also don't understand the Terrace Culture scene. Going to Away games ( especially) in the 70's and 80's you had to be ready to fight fire with fire,if you werent ready to "look after yourself" then you were in trouble.Going to a lot of places in those days you were constantly under attack ( and i mean attack). For a lot of the older lot (40's and 50's) this has always stayed with us. Some on here still think that if you don't wear colours to games and like to wear "nice" clothing, this makes you a thug!! What they fail to understand is that this was our way in the 70's and 80's and thats just the way we were bred!!. I take my kids to games now, and stay away from where i know there is potential trouble. Terrace culture IS part of Football, but some people don't understand it. Spot on, when you travelled away in those days you were taking your life in your own hands, i can remember some very hairy moments which i am just glad that my kids will never have to witness, places like Millwall, Middlesborough, Pompey personally stick out for me they really were hell-holes and i've got to say it it was a great buzz at the time, glad those days have gone though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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