The Aim

[Robbored]

Who in the football world says here have 18months in charge of a club, without question or comment. irrespective of performance on the pitch  How does one manager garner that over others at a variety of clubs, and indeed our own despite what will likely be at best  a mediocre season with naff all in the way of development.?

So if anyone can answer that or least try to  That would be aces.

But.. who is saying that Millen has carte blance for the next 18 months regardless? Do you have inside knowledge?

The bottom line is if City are relegation fodder next season then Steve Lansdown will act just as he did when Johnson lost the plot.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

You've been caught out and now your're clutching at straws Esmond.

Nothing that you've repeated of my other post is anyway contradictory. My view of Millen has remained consistant all season. I said he would keep us in Championship and he has very nearly achieved that.

I would really love to see Millens team average two points a game from here on in. If thats achieved you'd have nothing at all to winge about. What a relief that would be for us all..

How have I been caught out?, we both have the same underlying view of how we want/expect next season to pan out. I just don't blow smoke up Millens arse on the flimsiest of excuses.

[Robbored]

from someone who whinged for 4 years despite being higher in the league than we are now for most of that time.

and you can see no hypocrasy?

One thing is for sure Dave, you are very consistent, predictable but consistant all the same.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

One thing is for sure Dave, you are very consistent, predictable but consistant all the same.

et vous

[SC_Red]

One thing is for sure Dave, you are very consistent, predictable but consistant all the same.

no denial of hypocrasy then. good.

[Andy082005]

You've been caught out and now your're clutching at straws Esmond.

Nothing that you've repeated of my other post is anyway contradictory. My view of Millen has remained consistant all season. I said he would keep us in Championship and he has very nearly achieved that.

I would really love to see Millens team average two points a game from here on in. If thats achieved you'd have nothing at all to winge about. What a relief that would be for us all..

The only real person who has been caught out on this forum over the last few months / half a season is you mate. You have shown yourself to be a complete and utter hypocrite.

The shame is, the one or two posts you occasionally put up that are decent, dont get taken seriously any more because a vast majority look at you and your views as a bit of a joke.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

You've been caught out and now your're clutching at straws Esmond.

Nothing that you've repeated of my other post is anyway contradictory. My view of Millen has remained consistant all season. I said he would keep us in Championship and he has very nearly achieved that.

I would really love to see Millens team average two points a game from here on in. If thats achieved you'd have nothing at all to winge about. What a relief that would be for us all..

Ah whingeing, for someone who whinged during our promotion season and during our play off season and in 4 years under the previous manager only managed 1 positive post. The classic 'grand day out' post driving the mini bus for your gas mates to watch the gas and 'good old Trolls' win the play off final at Wembley, probably only blighted by the fact that the person to whom you have afforded 'legendary' status Ian Hollowhead was'nt the manager instead of 'good old Trolls'.

Coming from you Ginge i'll take the last sentence as a compliment.

[Robbored]

Ah whingeing, for someone who whinged during our promotion season and during our play off season and in 4 years under the previous manager only managed 1 positive post. The classic 'grand day out' post driving the mini bus for your gas mates to watch the gas and 'good old Trolls' win the play off final at Wembley, probably only blighted by the fact that the person to whom you have afforded 'legendary' status Ian Hollowhead was'nt the manager instead of 'good old Trolls'.

Caught out again Esmond. All you and your mates do whenever I make a point that shows what a contraditory poster you are is resort to historical,playground jibes. 'My dad's bigger than your dad.....'

I very,very rarely attack anyone on a personal level but you, SC_Red and some other bloke do it all the time. I don't know about you but I left the playground 40 odd years ago.

[SC_Red]

Caught out again Esmond. All you and your mates do whenever I make a point that shows what a contraditory poster you are is resort to historical,playground jibes. 'My dad's bigger than your dad.....'

I very,very rarely attack anyone on a personal level but you, SC_Red and some other bloke do it all the time. I don't about you but I left the playground 40 odd years ago.

you called Gary Johnson a nasty piece of work and a bully. was that not a personal attack then?

yes, very rarely. Unless your calling Gary Johnson a nasty piece of work and a bully of course

[beaverface]

Ill take that as a no for answering any of it then?

The reason for comparsion is that is a promotion from within the club who hasnt done spectacularly in their first full season. iirc we have had no one, promoted from within the last twenty years who has been a success. Ive used another club for a comparsion as broadly the change of management is similar to ours. It is about trying to unearth a reason rather than blind faith or giving the benefit of the doubt because it is something im not grasping for whatever reason. Yet no one yourself included will engage with any discussion that doesnt involve not answering the questions asked, swerving the answers or concentrating on something else and by passing the main point. ( for parity how is the infrastructure much more honed than it was then? Youth is still a problem to some despite the academy as are training, tactics, bringing on players as in development through coaching, not doing well with transfer fees or sell on clauses and a variety of other problems. That isnt specific to the manager, but still no one seemingly does anything to fix it, we are also losing money hand over fist that will likely continue even if we get the new stadium. its going to take promotion to the prem or a huge scaling back of ambition/football imploding for us to get straight)

I didnt use Tinnion because, I thought a more meaningful comparison would be to use a defender promoted within but Tinnion had a full season finished 7th and then it went wrong the next one despite moulding his squad over pre season and through transfers and he went of his own volition under mounds of criticism from the season previous and the new dowan with bridges and stewart upfront.

Im trying to establish why Millen should be given all of this extra time, or faith or whatever, when there is no history of it within our own club or of managers elsewhere Some have suggested Millen til Christmas irrespective of what happens something not afforded Tinnion, Osman et al. Who in the football world says here have 18months in charge of a club, without question or comment. irrespective of performance on the pitch How does one manager garner that over others at a variety of clubs, and indeed our own despite what will likely be at best a mediocre season with naff all in the way of development.?

So if anyone can answer that or least try to That would be aces.

I think it's very hard to compare the Osman situation to the current one as it's a different time with a different board and different finances involved. I think Russe had his heart set on bringing Joe Jordan back to the club to try and finish what Joe started.

With regards to the Tinnion situation, he was expected to deliver promotion or get us in and around promotion, whereas with Millen, Steve Lansdown isn't necessary expecting him to get promotion, but to steady the ship and make small steady improvements - obviously I don't know this for sure, but as I mentioned elsewhere, I think SL wants the whole stadium process started before he cracks on full steam ahead with building the team.

Obviously there is no exact reason why some managers will get more time than others, that SL's call fullstop, but getting rid of managers quickly generally tends to screw a team up (ie. Portsmouth, Leicester, Burnley, Sheffield United/Wednesday) moreso than improve the team (ala Norwich)

[Robbored]

you called Gary Johnson a nasty piece of work and a bully. was that not a personal attack then?

yes, very rarely. Unless your calling Gary Johnson a nasty piece of work and a bully of course<br />

Gary Johnson didn't post on here as far as we know. His brother did instead.

[SE23Red]

Im trying to establish why Millen should be given all of this extra time, or faith or whatever, when there is no history of it within our own club or of managers elsewhere Some have suggested Millen til Christmas irrespective of what happens something not afforded Tinnion, Osman et al. Who in the football world says here have 18months in charge of a club, without question or comment. irrespective of performance on the pitch How does one manager garner that over others at a variety of clubs, and indeed our own despite what will likely be at best a mediocre season with naff all in the way of development.?

So if anyone can answer that or least try to That would be aces.

I don't remember anyone saying give him 18 months 'irrespective of what happens' 'without question or comment'.

I do think that in October or November next year we should have a better idea of what he is about. Why do I pick this timeframe?

(1) He has done enough this season to be safe for now. A few good signings and pulling us away from the relegation zone after our nightmare start.

(2) Because, other than relegation, I don't see anything happening between now and the end of the season that matters much to his future. And I think relegation is very unlikely now.

(3) Once we get into the summer with him in charge he has until the end of August to reshape the squad.

(4) Having built the squad over the summer they need to be given a half-decent run of games to see what they can do. 2-3 months at least.

But all this is really saying is that between now and then most scenarios IMO result in him staying on as manager. Relegation this season or starting next season with 10 games without a win being obvious exceptions. Of course questions should be asked at every step along the way. I just don't see the answer to these questions being 'Sack him' for a while yet.

[SC_Red]

Gary Johnson didn't post on here as far as we know. His brother did instead.

so its ok to personally attack people so long as they dont post on here?

how does that work then?

[Fiale]

"widening the search" - was I imagining Carey being played out of position? no, so we needed a right back anyway .

Carey used to play as right back all the time for us in his early career - he evolved into a CB from a RB position - so what do you mean by playing out of position ?

[Riaz]

Carey used to play as right back all the time for us in his early career - he evolved into a CB from a RB position - so what do you mean by playing out of position ?

he aint a great right back. Remember those ultra slow step-overs?!

[Fiale]

you called Gary Johnson a nasty piece of work and a bully. was that not a personal attack then?

yes, very rarely. Unless your calling Gary Johnson a nasty piece of work and a bully of course

Maybe you should reread what he wrote - and he is right. He was critical of GJ, but a lot of you are doing the exact same to Millen (and were from day one)- your hypocrisy is astounding, calling someone out for doing the same thing you have all done consistently all season. Maybe you should all stop, get some perspective and start supporting the team, if you want to fill the boards with negativity & attacks then maybe you should set up your own blog/forum and call it 'even though I am not even a sunday league manager, or football chairmen I know more than Kieth Millen and Steve Lansdown - come join me in my bile and attacks against them blog' though maybe a bit of a bugger to remember that URL.

[beaverface]

Maybe it is hard, but we as a club have a tendancy to repeat things, especially in the modern era, you'd think we would learn, as a club but no the same things happen time and again ( transfer add ons, contract snafu's. overly long contracts offered overspending , promises of this and that whether it be stadia improvement, attractive football or whatever and so on are not specific to one board/ manager) despite being a different time, there are are still many of the same similarities in terms of consistency, recruitment, non youth development, first season progress, in house progression and so hence its justification.

I've not seen any one come out with any definitive aims for the season since the Millen took over its all been very "wishy washy and directionless even when he was appointed to paraphrase," ill do me best but im not going to make any bold predictions", some thing that has not been clarified afaik by anyone since and doesnt really help in terms of trying to get the club somewhere if there arent any specific aims to go towards.

Is it the lack of aims that is why people are so supportive of Millen? there is the scope for lots of speculation of what might be hence the support, rather than what is or what. This time last year people were sick to the site of playing like shite under GJ, yet this season they will forgive Millen because he is learning? yes there are good performances, but there have been some utterly dreadful ones on a par with the dross served up before.

Does he escape criticism because he is new? are external factors to blame.. How many games is enough to start asking questions?

Why do those who support Millen, do so so unflinchingly. What loyalty has he earned? and what makes them think he will be a success

As ive said in previous posts in this thread I just cant get my head around it given a shed load of evidence from elsewhere and our own ranks that says different.

Regarding the clubs listed, and I'm probably wrong, werent most of their manager changes enforced. Portsmouth, Redknapp went to Spurs, Burnley cos Coyle went to Bolton, Sheff Utd because Speed went to Wales before that Warnock resigning as he took the team as far as he could when they came down before Blackwell. Pearson went to Hull hence Leicesters need for a new manager. Brian Laws went to Burnley hence Sheffield Wednesdays need for a new manager.

Another general thing, is JoeJordan 1st time around the last time our manager has been poached and not sacked/ resigned.. what does that say about our stature of manager and indeed the club as this is about the future?

That's a lot of points\questions you've mentioned there and I won't respond to them all, however there are a few highlighted points I'd like to expand on.

1. City has changed remarkably since the Russe era, we've got a dedicated Chief Executive to oversea the entire running of the club, we've gone down the route of becoming a Premier Academy for youngsters, we've bought and built up the training facilities and we're in the process of trying to build a new stadium. We've had a mixed bag of results with the academy, a few years ago quite a few came through ie. Matt Hill, Joe Burnell, Anyinsah, Cotterell... but recently it hasn't been so productive - but that's not from lack of trying. You can't completely overhaul the club and do everything completely different because the nature of football dictates there are only so many factors you can manipulate. On the whole, I think since the Russe/Osman era things have progressed overall.

2. Can't argue and don't want to argue with this point, I agree with you. We haven't heard about any aims, but on the contrary we need to be careful as some of our fans don't look at the entire picture and take the aims as gospel. Sometimes we need to take into context why an aim or ambition isn't met.

3. Does it really matter if the manager was sacked or left of their own accord? The result is exactly the same, you're left with a club that needs to bring in a new manager and so you get uncertaincy in methods, ideas and training. The point I was trying to make is that those clubs with a higher turnover of managers tend to not have the same success of those who remain patient.

[SE23Red]

Its not about saying 'sack him' its the opposite, as to why people are backing him, there are very few discussions around it. Im not wanting to turn it into some kind of ooh he should be sacked thread because its been done a thousand times before.

But surely they are the only two options. If I don't think he is good enough I'll advocate sacking him. If this is not the case I'll give him my support.

People have been behind Millen since his appointment with some ferocity since the day he started. Iam trying to find out the reasons why, as it's not always immediately obvious from a variety of things that have already been discussed. People have subsequently said he has an eye for a player. How does seeing a good player make a good manager for example?

Initially loyalty. Then as time has gone on respect for the good things he has done so far. And finally the understanding that the biggest chance he has to really make this his team comes with the summer transfer window.

You mention he should be given until 2-3 months into next season, when he will be 18 months ish in post to make a decision? Why then and not the end of the season? are 45 games not enough to come to some kind of judgement. Whats the difference? I dont understand why he needs to have this lee-way when others wouldnt be given that luxury. What has he done to say that he should reshape the squad and is the man to take us forward and so forth?

You talk about learning lessons from past mistakes. The biggest mistake we made with Coppell was waiting until the summer to appoint him. He didn't get to see our players in a match situation until August and by then it was too late for him and us. We ended up with the most shambolic excuse for a preseason I can remember.

Transfer windows and freedom of contract have reshaped football. If I were a chairman I'd be wanting to make decisions about changing the manager in March and October. I'd want the new man to be able to get into the club and see what is what ahead of the time he gets to do something about it. So if Steve doubts that Keith is the man for the summer clearout he should act now and get someone in to make the final two months of this season worthwhile.

You state it like its all a matter of fact he should be be given this and he should be given that? Why does he deserve that over someone else to take us forward for example?

These and many other questions never seem to be answered sufficiently its all cloaks and daggers or starts into somekind of trickery because its implied posters want the manager sacked. I just want people to 'fill' out and justfy their answers as i'm not clear how 'just because' covers things

Having been given the opportunity he hasn't done enough wrong to have it taken from him before twelve months have passed. He has done good things - signings, a longer term view on transfer dealings, turning a crisis around with (hopefully) a positive outcome. He has done bad things - players out of position, sometimes overly loyal. But the biggest factor in our failings this season has been a struggle to put out a Championship quality back four and this has been as much down to bad luck with injuries and not having the required quality in the squad he started with than anything he has had control over.

I guess if you want a one word answer to your main question it is 'Patience'.

[Robbored]

so its ok to personally attack people so long as they dont post on here?

how does that work then?

No surprise that you don't know how it works. Let me explain - I don't attack people that I've not met on a personal level. Imo its cowardly to do so from the annonimity a keyboard.

Its a kinda personal morale code that I try to adhere to.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Caught out again Esmond. All you and your mates do whenever I make a point that shows what a contraditory poster you are is resort to historical,playground jibes. 'My dad's bigger than your dad.....'

I very,very rarely attack anyone on a personal level but you, SC_Red and some other bloke do it all the time. I don't know about you but I left the playground 40 odd years ago.

Not another poster claiming a statute of limitations on ridiculous posts?.

By the way my dad is dead.

[The Bard]

The aim is to become a self-sufficient Championship side that is involved in the shake up for promotion. The sides that have been promoted recently have mostly been those with major backing or those who have just been relegated from the prem. Blackpool bucked the trend and someone will do so this year as only QPR and Cardiff have had significant investment. Too much is made of chucking money at players and not enough of building things progressively. I think Keith Millen has done a really good job, but there are things he has yet to deal with. He has earned the opportunity to carry on the job. He did not take over a stable club. Things were shot to pieces and it could easily got much worse and we could be in the same position as Preston or Sheff Utd.

Bet Preston regret getting rid of Irvine. Bet Sheff U regret getting rid of Blackwell. The bottom half of the championship is littered with warnings about what can happen if you gamble and lose. Clubs with good support, good grounds but also a regular churn in managers due to poor player investment and unrealistic expectations. There are very few successful quick fix managers - Redknapp and Warnock spring to mind. I'd rather have a solid character who isn't interested in projecting himself in the media and who has a decent tactical brain and Millen fits that. If we sell Maynard for a decent whack in the summer and invest the money on decent players with something to prove, we'll challenge next year as well as reducing our losses. Millen is well aware of weaknesses and the summer is a much better time to address them than the winter where there is less available at unreasonable prices.

It really makes no difference if we stay up on goal difference of finish 9th. The same things need to be sorted out. If Millen knows he's the man to do that, he can get started early.

[Robbored]

The aim is to become a self-sufficient Championship side that is involved in the shake up for promotion.  The sides that have been promoted recently have mostly been those with major backing  or those who have just been relegated from the prem.  Blackpool bucked the trend and someone will do so this year as only QPR and Cardiff have had significant investment.    Too much is made of chucking money at players and not enough of building things progressively.  I think Keith Millen has done a really good job, but there are things he has yet to deal with.  He has earned the opportunity to carry on the job.  He did not take over a stable club.  Things were shot to pieces and it could easily got much worse and we could be in the same position as Preston or Sheff Utd.  

Bet Preston regret getting rid of Irvine.   Bet Sheff U regret getting rid of Blackwell. The bottom half of the championship is littered with warnings about what can happen if you gamble and lose.  Clubs with good support, good grounds but also a regular churn in managers due to poor player investment and unrealistic expectations.  There are very few successful quick fix managers - Redknapp and Warnock spring to mind.  I'd rather have a solid character who isn't interested in projecting himself in the media and who has a decent tactical brain and Millen fits that.  If we sell Maynard for a decent whack in the summer and invest the money on decent players with something to prove, we'll challenge next year as well as reducing our losses.  Millen is well aware of weaknesses and the summer is a much better time to address them than the winter where there is less available at unreasonable prices.

It really makes no difference if we stay up on goal difference of finish 9th.  The same things need to be sorted out.  If Millen knows he's the man to do that, he can get started early.

Well said, Bard.

Couldn't agree more.