Possession...

[Robbored]

Just a word on Skuse, he magically gets better each time hes out the team, then he comes back and we remember that he's like a poor version of each of other midfielders. He's Mr slightly below champiosnhip average. He can fill any role at a 4-5/10 standard.We need better players to progress.

A harsh view on a player who was voted player of the season for last season but almost suddenly he's become an 'slightly below championship average' player.

Skuse was playing in struggling side earlier this season but so were other players who have taken stick on here. Clarkson, Cisse, Elliot and Nyatanga to name just four. Now all four are part of an improved team.

Dishing out stick to Skuse when he's not played for ages is undeserved.

If Skuse has a problem its that no-one seems to know what his best position is - maybe Cole himself doesn't really know but imo he looks best when going forward and scored a good goal at Leicester last season when pushing on. If he was able to have less defensive responsibilties he could possibly become a creative midfielder if he was coached to concentrate solely on that position. Thats upto Millen and his coaching staff.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I quite agree Spudski.

Take the Coventry match. We were 3 up at half time but had barely had a well constructed move or a passage of play in which we retained possession. Even against 10 men in the second half we appeared to me to struggle to keep the ball until they grew tired.

The worrying thing is that the following both seem to be the players we buy and the players who get most praise at Ashton Gate:

- "flying wingers" (who more often than not lose possession)

- "bodies on the line defenders" (who get injured)

- "midfield hard men" (who can't create)

- "never stop running strikers" (see "bodies on the line defenders"...)

I've no particular problem with any of that and indeed most of the Gate favourites down the years fit into one of those categories...but I'd argue that modern football isn't built around that style of play, or at least top level football isn't. To compete at this level we need to recruit players who can pass more accurately and retain possession, players with craft and guile.

Not easy I know.

Yes agree with most of this. Actually I'd say that with the exception of a few clubs, this is quite prevalenent in English football in general- part of the reason for our continued failure at International level. This is a debate for another thread but possession and keeping it, dictating the play at our pace and taking the sting out of the game is not something at which we are very proficent. That said, thought we were fluid at bried periods last night when Adomah or JCR were playing in the centre.

[Mr Popodopolous]

One of the things that I liked about Millen's way of setting up his team (even when City were struggling) was the fact he always started with with two wingers. Its an attacking formation and has on occaisions worked well. Two wingers is not something we saw under Johnson and we all know what the football was like back then.

I don't see setting up to attack as a flaw as long as the two wide men do the tracking back and so on. That said, like all strikers wingers need service preferbably as far up the pitch as possible. Thats where City's problem has been all season after Hartley left. City don't have a creative influence in the middle of the park. Elliot does not have the game to play that role, Cisse is about as close as we'd get but he plays deeper just in front of the back four. Johnson isn't the answer either. Skuse could develop into the creative player but is nowhere near yet.

It won't be lost on Millen and I'm sure we'll see him bring maybe two midfielders over the summer.

Not with lining up to attack perse, but in a 4-4-2 I certainly see flaws with this approach. Would leave us wide open in a 4-4-2 imo- as I have thought all along. It is possible to have an attacking approach in a non 4-4-2. Full backs provide width, central playmakers can do so centrally, or 2 defensive mids (one who is at least decent in possession), two wingers and one attacking midfielder.

. McIndoe was often instructed to tuck in and that inhibited his ability to get wide as much.

As others have previously stated, perhaps this was because Johnson appreciated the problems with 2 out and out wingers and how defensively exposed it could leave us. Besides which, central wingers are an increasingly prevalent trend in modern football these days...

[marmite]

Agree 100% with the OP on this one, everytime I hear us on Player its the same old story! How many times have we all heard the following words "City lose the ball" "City pass intercepted" "City give up possesion" "Loose pass by City" Last night when Norwich had the ball they semed to always have an easy pass on but when CITY had the ball we had to try and force the pass as there was rarely anybody in a decent amount of space!!

There will obviously be a clearout in the summer so I just hope we can get a playmaker in with a bit of creativity.

UP THE CITY!!

The only player we have at the moment who is capable of passing the ball and then finding space for a return ball is LJ, but because he does this too deep it is not effective enough. Its a simple tactic to play but our players once they have passed the ball seem to think 'job done' instead of finding space for a return..Consequently someone gets closed down and we either lose possesion or hit a hopeful long ball which we seldom get on the end of. Norwich played the give and go very effectivly last night just as Swansea did at AG.

[Mr Popodopolous]

An earlier poster made the point about the kind of players we have thought are great at City in recent times. Different level I know but here is a good piece out just recently on the subject of possession vs midfield hard men:

http://www.wsc.co.uk/content/view/6667/38/

[Tales From The Front]

Our posession man is on the bench.

And I hope he stays there, we would not have beaten Pompey in my view had he played. Even last night and whilst I quite agree with the OP our passing and ball rentention is woeful, we were at least in the game and it was utimately our inability to head a basic pump up the pitch Caulker, who had his worse game for City (not fit, all be it with the benifit of hindsight), missing out on th efirst one which lead to the pen and secondly Fontaine for the the vital 2nd goal.

Cisse has made the defensive midfielder possesion his own in my view and was arguably our best player, proberbly after Albert.

No doubt there needs some re-building in the summer, but lets get to 52 points and then worry about it, as dispointing as last night was, that team will get there.

[QuedgeRed]

I agree with most that's been said.

In order to keep the ball we need to pass it to a player with a red shirt!!!!!!! - In order to pass the ball we need to control it first!!!!!!!

Both of these basics we can't seem to do very well for some reason.

Professional players surely should be able to do this shouldn't they?

I'm not really 'aving a go at them - perhaps it's the way they're 'set up' or told to play.

I'm not 'aving a go at KM either.

B0ll0cks I don't know what I'm trying to say.

[Nogbad the Bad]

I agree with most that's been said.

In order to keep the ball we need to pass it to a player with a red shirt!!!!!!! - In order to pass the ball we need to control it first!!!!!!!

Both of these basics we can't seem to do very well for some reason.

Professional players surely should be able to do this shouldn't they?

I'm not really 'aving a go at them - perhaps it's the way they're 'set up' or told to play.

I'm not 'aving a go at KM either.

B0ll0cks I don't know what I'm trying to say.

You seem to be saying either:

1) Many of the players are of very limited ability, or

2) KM is completely tactically inept making the players look bad.

Or possibly even both.

[QuedgeRed]

You seem to be saying either:

1) Many of the players are of very limited ability, or

2) KM is completely tactically inept making the players look bad.

Or possibly even both.

Bl00dy hell it sounds really bad when you put it like that!

I didn't expect much from the game last evening to be honest.

Soaking the pressure up and hitting the opposition on the break does work for us sometimes, but giving the ball away too quickly and too easily doesn't make for easy viewing does it? Frustrates the hell out of me.

I suppose taking the rough with the smooth is part and parcel of watching our beloved team. It's what makes the good performances all that bit more special.

As the saying goes you can't win em all!

[BCAGFC]

We have struggled to keep possession since the Danny Wilson era....yes all those years ago.

Many games during GJs reign, we couldn't keep possession and only when we signed Hartley did we have a reasonable share of the ball.

Until we get players in that are confident with the ball at their feet, we will always struggle.

BCAGFC

[miketh2nd]

Think is fair enough Millen to play it safe to build his team playing countering attacking football to gain confidence and if he doesn't have all of the players he needs ... we all know he was trying to get a creative midfielder but seems no one at the right price. As much as JCR drives me crazy at times not passing enough or looking up he has played quite well coming on as a sub last few games I'd be tempted to swap him for either elliot or Clarkson seeing as we have nothing to play for.

[Rob k]

You won't get a creative central midfielder in that side without getting absolutely hammered every week, to get this midfielder we would gave to set up completely differently as defensively we don't look that good, take out cisse or Marv and we would be even worse, that means you would have to play a 5 man midfield or defence to accommodate a new midfielder so where do you lose a player? Maynard can't play up top on his own and I don't think Albert can play a wing back role on the right, With this current squad it's not just as easy as saying add a creative midfielder as I don't think were strong enough in other areas.

[Mr Popodopolous]

You won't get a creative central midfielder in that side without getting absolutely hammered every week, to get this midfielder we would gave to set up completely differently as defensively we don't look that good, take out cisse or Marv and we would be even worse, that means you would have to play a 5 man midfield or defence to accommodate a new midfielder so where do you lose a player? Maynard can't play up top on his own and I don't think Albert can play a wing back role on the right, With this current squad it's not just as easy as saying add a creative midfielder as I don't think were strong enough in other areas.

Too true, a 5 man midfield would be necessary IMO to get a bit more control, we would need a shake up- both in terms of personnel and thinking.

[spudski]

We have struggled to keep possession since the Danny Wilson era....yes all those years ago.

Many games during GJs reign, we couldn't keep possession and only when we signed Hartley did we have a reasonable share of the ball.

Until we get players in that are confident with the ball at their feet, we will always struggle.

BCAGFC

This is the biggest problem with British football. Players spend too much time in the Gym and working on fitness and stamina, and not enough time with the ball at their feet.

Even when working on fitness and running, the Spanish do it with a ball at their feet. We don't.

Also in the afternoons, the Spanish and other continentals, will work on close ball control and skills...nothing strenuous, but still working.

Our British players, either go and do more Gym work, have a massage, or go home, play Golf, go down the bookies or play Computer games.

You can work all you like as a coach on set pieces, but the majority of the game, is played on instinct and muscle memory...things that are ingrained and should be instinctive. When under pressure, our players fall apart. You need a fast brain as well as feet...combine the two, and you are onto a winner.

It's a sorry state tbh. Considering how much money is involved in football, and these are meant to be prime athletes, they pale in comparison, to the training done by many Amateur Athlete's competing week in week out at Athletics events.

Why it's been ingrained into British Coaching methods, that we have to run around at 100mph, beats me. Let the ball do the work, and get the opposition running around after you. Alternate the pace of the game etc...It really isn't rocket Science...and unfortunately our up coming British Coaches are doing their badges and exams based on coaching methods that are archaic compared to the rest of the world.

[CotswoldRed]

This is the biggest problem with British football. Players spend too much time in the Gym and working on fitness and stamina, and not enough time with the ball at their feet.

Even when working on fitness and running, the Spanish do it with a ball at their feet. We don't.

Also in the afternoons, the Spanish and other continentals, will work on close ball control and skills...nothing strenuous, but still working.

Our British players, either go and do more Gym work, have a massage, or go home, play Golf, go down the bookies or play Computer games.

You can work all you like as a coach on set pieces, but the majority of the game, is played on instinct and muscle memory...things that are ingrained and should be instinctive. When under pressure, our players fall apart. You need a fast brain as well as feet...combine the two, and you are onto a winner.

It's a sorry state tbh. Considering how much money is involved in football, and these are meant to be prime athletes, they pale in comparison, to the training done by many Amateur Athlete's competing week in week out at Athletics events.

Why it's been ingrained into British Coaching methods, that we have to run around at 100mph, beats me. Let the ball do the work, and get the opposition running around after you. Alternate the pace of the game etc...It really isn't rocket Science...and unfortunately our up coming British Coaches are doing their badges and exams based on coaching methods that are archaic compared to the rest of the world.

Agree with all that.

The ball skills amongst our players is shocking. Very little in the way of changes of direction, dummies and the like. Nothing terribly cohesive in open play. Not keeping the ball under complete control.

Aside from this, I still shudder when I consider shots from 18 yds, there must be 70% that go into orbit and 20% wide. Maybe 10% on target, most of which with little power. Why don't these players aim for 10 feet under the goal line and maybe they'd have a better chance.

Given its their full time job its not always very clean and crisp to look at. If they were plumbers there would be water everywhere.

[spudski]

Agree with all that.

The ball skills amongst our players is shocking. Very little in the way of changes of direction, dummies and the like. Nothing terribly cohesive in open play. Not keeping the ball under complete control.

Aside from this, I still shudder when I consider shots from 18 yds, there must be 70% that go into orbit and 20% wide. Maybe 10% on target, most of which with little power. Why don't these players aim for 10 feet under the goal line and maybe they'd have a better chance.

Given its their full time job its not always very clean and crisp to look at. If they were plumbers there would be water everywhere.

When warming up before a game, I watch the player intently. It tells you a lot about them. We have some players that have a truely shocking first touch, and that's not even under any pressure.

The body shape of many of them when shooting, is totally wrong as well. Funnily enough, one of the sweetest shooting feet we have is Clarkson, but he very rarely does it during a game.

These are basics the Spanish work on everyday...I wish we could cotton onto it more.

[Monkeh]

well its a problem as a whole in English football all the skill gets coached out of a player,

look at our so called "golden generation" continually fail at major tournys and just end up lumping the ball 70% of the time,

compare this to the spanish golden generation who have won the world cup and Europian Championship,

Zidane once said "When the spanish start winning things they will not stop"

The FA needs kicking into touch and start with youth development now the prem need to start letting more money trickle down into grass routes football Thats when the problems lay,

Greed at the top of the game which is run by people who have never kicked a ball,

And people wonder why our national team is in a state

[bcfcnick]

I don't really see Woolford as an 'out and out' winger. He's taking time to settle in but he does have the work-rate and potential passing ability to play a left-midfield role rather than pure wing play.

I remember there was a lot of complaints when GJ was getting the wide players /wingers to tuck in. Also, a mate of mine supports Orient so I went to see Rovers get thrashed with some great wide play from Russell Slade's team - aside form the result it was just a joy to see a team attack with flair and Rovers were playing such a narrow formation I thought it was something akin to 2-2-2-2-2. Orient had players who played some great balls from left wing to right wing and Rovers were made to look like a pub team. There was some long ball but it was Glenn Hoddle style long ball - precision and flair.

So I'd hate to see us dispense with width. As a side note I think Russell Slade looks a very good manager - he's managed teams with very limited resources and got reasonable success and he gets them playing some decent football as well. He also picks up the up and coming 'good investment' type of player it looks like SL will be wanting to see under the new board rather than the 'seasoned pro' or expensive loanee.

So I guess it's all about having players who are decent enough to have time on the ball to pass to their own teammates rather than the opposition. That's why I would like to see Ribeiro played in central midfield with Cisse as the holding player once there are enough points on the board to completely rule out relegation. Regardless of who plays in midfield it will need the back four to play it through them rather than punt it upfield. Above all, I don't see width and wingers as being incompatible with possession football, quite the reverse in fact. I think the inability to retain the ball comes from the back four punts and playing two holding midfielders who do have attributes but keeping possession isn't top of the list.