Season Ticket Stopped

[NickJ]

Just to let you know that I have now received an email about this from 'dafarms' and promise I will look into it thoroughly. As I have already said, this is subject to ongoing Police proceedings so it wouldn't be right for me to comment any further at this stage, but I promise that we will look at all aspects of the alleged incident and try and make the fairest possible decision. I hope you understand that I can't add any more to this thread, but that doesn't mean that nothing will be happening behind the scenes.

Just to add my support of the many others that have commented on the unfairness of this by BCFC.

Dave, what is there for BCFC to investigate? The guy has been arrested, the club cannot decide if he is guilty, it didnt even happen at Ashton Gate. He hasn't even been charged yet, let alone convicted.

I also know of someone in a similar position following the Leeds game - arrested but not yet charged, and he will be pleading not guilty even if he is (sounds to me that he wont be charged anyway), and yet BCFC have cancelled the season ticket.

So BCFC policy therefore is this, for example.

if I were arrested (very unlikely I would hope) following say police CCTV review of an incident, but it was later shown that it was a case of mistaken identity and the police eventually caught up with the real wrong doer, I would be in the meantime banned by BCFC.

[Dolman Block B]

I agree. Ban all alcohol and have breathalisers on the turnstyles. If your over the limit....you cant come in

Really? City and most clubs throughout the country would have less than a 1000 through the gates!!!

[midland red]

Just to add my support of the many others that have commented on the unfairness of this by BCFC.

Dave, what is there for BCFC to investigate? The guy has been arrested, the club cannot decide if he is guilty, it didnt even happen at Ashton Gate. He hasn't even been charged yet, let alone convicted.

I also know of someone in a similar position following the Leeds game - arrested but not yet charged, and he will be pleading not guilty even if he is (sounds to me that he wont be charged anyway), and yet BCFC have cancelled the season ticket.

So BCFC policy therefore is this, for example.

if I were arrested (very unlikely I would hope) following say police CCTV review of an incident, but it was later shown that it was a case of mistaken identity and the police eventually caught up with the real wrong doer, I would be in the meantime banned by BCFC.

NickJ, yes you would be banned under the present system as DaveL says it is club policy, and don"t get fooled into thinking you are in someway immune to be arrested, over the years i have seen all sorts taken by the various police forces across the country not just the casual clothes wearing fans we all know, but replica shirt wearing fans men and women.

yours MR.

[Slave to the rhythm]

I agree. Ban all alcohol and have breathalisers on the turnstyles. If your over the limit....you cant come in

Daft as it may sound, this could well be the way forward.

In reality, very few people would be over the limit, and this system would remove the unfairness of a police officer being able to decide, often arbitrarily, that somebody can't enter the stadium because officer thinks he's drunk.

[glynriley]

Daft as it may sound, this could well be the way forward.

In reality, very few people would be over the limit, and this system would remove the unfairness of a police officer being able to decide, often arbitrarily, that somebody can't enter the stadium because officer thinks he's drunk.

If it's the drink driving limit , I would guess most people WOULD be over the limit. 2 pints (of Blackthorn or Natch) would be enough to put most people over the drink drive limit.

How many people are actually drunk after 2 pints ?

[Irish_Red]

People on here have mentioned the fact that you can drink alcohol at Rugby and Cricket matches and therefore what is the issue with a football fan having a few on board...

The key problem with the arguement is that even though you have vast amounts of alcohol on at Rugby and Cricket there are very very few incidents related to drink and the same (sadly) could not be said of football matches. I think we have all been at matches where there are people there who have had vast amounts of booze and you know given the slightest provocation they will kick off. It is a sad but true fact.

I don't know the full facts of the OP and his issues at Millwall and I do wish him well but you know that if you are away from home and have had a few pints there is a chance something like this will happen and particularly at Millwall. Doesn't make it right but thats the way it is.

If you go to any matches in Ireland, Gaelic Football / Hurling, Rugby etc you can buy drink and bring it into the seating area. Football is a different story altogether because of the percieved or otherwise mentality of the fans. You only have to look at the incidents against Leeds to see that alcohol was probably one of the route causes of the problems as well as sitting in with the home fans, yet this is something that you can do at Rugby and Cricket.

Irish Red

[midland red]

Daft as it may sound, this could well be the way forward.

In reality, very few people would be over the limit, and this system would remove the unfairness of a police officer being able to decide, often arbitrarily, that somebody can't enter the stadium because officer thinks he's drunk.

In being fair to treat all people equally you would have to breathalise every person trying to enter the stadium, how long would it take to get 60,000 fans into the emirates.

As long as you have had a drink and you are not causing any trouble and you are not a danger to yourself or others then you are doing no harm, thats the common sense approach very rarely taken by police at football grounds, the bigger question is why do they constantly arrest individuals for this type of offence, is it to justify their attendance at football matches, is it to add to existing banning orders to somehow prove that the hooligan element still exists and that policing of games is still very much a necessity, i don"t have the answer to that question, all i know is this occurs at football grounds all around the country and is becoming an epidemic.

yours MR.

[marshy]

I would just like to add my support. It is quite obviously wrong to punish someone, as the club is doing, before they have been found guilty of committing a crime. It contravenes a fundamental principle of English Law and is quite possibly illegal, although I'm sure the club will have looked into this. Moreover, how likely is it that the accused will re-offend at a future match when so doing would certainly harm his defence ?

[marshy]

In being fair to treat all people equally you would have to breathalise every person trying to enter the stadium, how long would it take to get 60,000 fans into the emirates.

As long as you have had a drink and you are not causing any trouble and you are not a danger to yourself or others then you are doing no harm, thats the common sense approach very rarely taken by police at football grounds, the bigger question is why do they constantly arrest individuals for this type of offence, is it to justify their attendance at football matches, is it to add to existing banning orders to somehow prove that the hooligan element still exists and that policing of games is still very much a necessity, i don"t have the answer to that question, all i know is this occurs at football grounds all around the country and is becoming an epidemic.

yours MR.

This would be like saying that if you breathalyse one motorist you've an obligation to test everyone. Or that you have to thoroughly check the luggage, and do a full body search, of everyone passing through customs. Clearly not workable as you say. Breathalysing seems a good idea as it provides objective evidence, and why should the limit be the same as for driving ? It would only work, however, if the courts came down really heavily on those found guilty and in this country that is probably not going to happen.

[midland red]

This would be like saying that if you breathalyse one motorist you've an obligation to test everyone. Or that you have to thoroughly check the luggage, and do a full body search, of everyone passing through customs. Clearly not workable as you say. Breathalysing seems a good idea as it provides objective evidence, and why should the limit be the same as for driving ? It would only work, however, if the courts came down really heavily on those found guilty and in this country that is probably not going to happen.

Would be interesting to see our police adopt the same principle at street parties around Bristol for the royal wedding, then at least they would be providing a public service, cue the red goblin.

yours MR.

[Nogbad the Bad]

the bigger question is why do they constantly arrest individuals for this type of offence, is it to justify their attendance at football matches, is it to add to existing banning orders to somehow prove that the hooligan element still exists and that policing of games is still very much a necessity, i don"t have the answer to that question, all i know is this occurs at football grounds all around the country and is becoming an epidemic.

yours MR.

All good questions, this thread is a real eye opener.

BCFC's end of season arrests figure always seems to be amongst the highest in the division - could this be self perpetuating due to excessive police attention, and is there any way of finding out what percentage of this figure are actually found guilty?

Huge numbers of police at Millwall for the City game and if they make 10 arrests it's much easier to point to that figure to justify such numbers next time and the relatively small number of away fans would obviously be an easy target. You have to wonder why fans such as dafarms who were thought to be drunk were not simply turned away at the turnstiles OUTSIDE the ground?

I always understood (and I'm sure I've read of such cases in the past) that being arrested for being 'drunk' at a football match was seen as a relatively minor offence which rarely led to a ban. Obviously not the case these days as we now know the club has a policy to impose bans on those arrested for this offence even before any guilt is established.

Incidents like this, and comments on this thread, make you wonder just how many City fans are serving interim bans at the moment for relatively minor alleged 'offences' such as this.

Bad news for the club, not only in reputation with an inflated arrests figure, but how many of these will decide supporting the club in the future is just not worth the hassle even if found not guilty?

[gamon]

When did this become "Club Policy" because I will tell you now it has *not* "always" been club policy?

[Frome Valley]

Although this case looks like it might not be worthy of a ban, however the Club are duty bound to take this action, the fact that it is a a Police matter would trigger such a response. The courts will decide if the OP is innocent or otherwise, and until then I would suggest we let it run it's course and see what happens.

One thing for sure though it's a lesson to those that do like a couple before a match to perhaps rethink.

It's the big society folks , we have to take responsibility for our actions, or pay the cost...

Non attendance is often part of bail conditions imposed by the courts. Here it appears no restriction has been put in place by a court. So the club are not duty bound to ban a fan who has not been convicted for such a possible minor offence.

[midland red]

All good questions, this thread is a real eye opener.

BCFC's end of season arrests figure always seems to be amongst the highest in the division - could this be self perpetuating due to excessive police attention, and is there any way of finding out what percentage of this figure are actually found guilty?

Huge numbers of police at Millwall for the City game and if they make 10 arrests it's much easier to point to that figure to justify such numbers next time and the relatively small number of away fans would obviously be an easy target. You have to wonder why fans such as dafarms who were thought to be drunk were not simply turned away at the turnstiles OUTSIDE the ground?

I always understood (and I'm sure I've read of such cases in the past) that being arrested for being 'drunk' at a football match was seen as a relatively minor offence which rarely led to a ban. Obviously not the case these days as we now know the club has a policy to impose bans on those arrested for this offence even before any guilt is established.

Incidents like this, and comments on this thread, make you wonder just how many City fans are serving interim bans at the moment for relatively minor alleged 'offences' such as this.

Bad news for the club, not only in reputation with an inflated arrests figure, but how many of these will decide supporting the club in the future is just not worth the hassle even if found not guilty?

Again some interesting points made, rumour was that 27 were arrested at Millwall not quite sure how accurate that figure was.

[CiderHider]

If you did no wrong you have nothing to worry about. Cant blame the Club as I think their hands are tied. Good luck proving your innocence.

[Dave L]

For clarification: The OP stated that: 'Altough I have not been convicted off anything, BCFC have stopped my season ticket BECAUSE I AM ON BAIL.' (my capitals) I have already made it clear that it would not be fair to dafarms that either myself or the Club should comment on specific aspects of his case. However I would make the general point that it is usually a condition of bail that anyone charged with an offence is not allowed to attend any football stadium or to go within a mile of his or her home stadium on a matchday. In cases such as these, the Club has no choice but to act in accordance with the bail conditions imposed by the Court. That's the law. I hope that makes the Club's current position clear. Once a decision has been reached by the Court, the Club will then be in a better position to react accordingly. And that really is my last word on the matter for now.

[bringbacktherobin]

or to go within a mile of his or her home stadium on a matchday.

Bit of a bugger if you live within a mile of the ground.

[wayne allisons tongues]

So why if your stopped from entering the ground as being drunk are you then allowed to buy drink inside the ground and get drunk, seems a bit weird, is it a case spend your money here and we wil turn a blind eye, buy a drink outside and we will turn you away.

[Stephen Lewis]

-

[Lita For Congo]

I agree. Ban all alcohol and have breathalisers on the turnstyles. If your over the limit....you cant come in

We'll have lower gates then the Gas!

[Stephen Lewis]

Most police would be likely to fail any turnstile breathalyser as well as the fans.

[Mr Mosquito]

BCFC's end of season arrests figure always seems to be amongst the highest in the division - could this be self perpetuating due to excessive police attention, and is there any way of finding out what percentage of this figure are actually found guilty?

Huge numbers of police at Millwall for the City game and if they make 10 arrests it's much easier to point to that figure to justify such numbers next time and the relatively small number of away fans would obviously be an easy target. You have to wonder why fans such as dafarms who were thought to be drunk were not simply turned away at the turnstiles OUTSIDE the ground?

If anything, the Police have drawn attention to themselves yet again. Do we really need so many Police? With our half wit Government bailing out the failing European Union project with £billions of our taxes there's very little money left for excessive Policing at football - bring on the Police job losses.

[dafarms]

I'm not sure if this has been posted / asked at all on here by anyone since the incident, but question to Stoneys son.....was your dad kicked out the ground but then let back in after a Bristol copper called "Tommy" smoothed things over with Coppers who kicked him out? if so, what was he kicked out for?

I heard this from someone who was at the game, but does not use this forum and had no idea about this thread existing. His exact words were to his mate he travelled up with were "Stoneys up to his old tricks again....." (not his magic ones though )

No Stoney was not kicked out, and went out of the ground to chat to Tommy, who just said " He has been arrested for being drunk, so leave it at that for your best interests", then Tommy let him back in the ground. So NO he was not up to " His Old Tricks".

[Andy082005]

Daft as it may sound, this could well be the way forward.

In reality, very few people would be over the limit, and this system would remove the unfairness of a police officer being able to decide, often arbitrarily, that somebody can't enter the stadium because officer thinks he's drunk.

I only meant it tongue in cheek

[dafarms]

I only meant it tongue in cheek

O.k sorry mate, just get a little wound up, after what has happened, week and a half later and I am still really p***ed off at being arrested for absolutely nothing.

[CotswoldRed]

I agree. Ban all alcohol and have breathalisers on the turnstyles. If your over the limit....you cant come in

I hope that was with tongue firmly in cheek.

EDIT: I see it was!

[cider head]

The days where people communicated by talking seem to have gone in Britain.

Why couldn't the cop at Millwall just take Daframs to one side and say, "we know you've had a drink, just remember to behave, if you don't we are watching you and you will be arrested, now go and enjoy the game".

Why can't Bristol City get him in for a chat see that he's not a threat and again say "you're welcome to continue coming until a court tells us you are banned from football grounds, which hopefully they never will, make sure you behave yourself in the meantime.

God, if I had a ban for every time I've gone into a ground with a few drinks inside me, I'd never be allowed to set foot in a stadium again and I think that goes for a few thousand of us.

This is spot on and how it should be dealt with.

[InCider]

Figures for the 2009-10 season here ...

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/crime/football-arrests-banning-orders/fbo-2009-10?view=Binary

I find it astounding that there were fewer arrests from the previous year, but an increase in banning orders! Why?

Also, if you look at club by club figures. there are some odd discrepencies. Chelsea, for example had fewer arrests for alcohol related offences than we did, despite having attendances of 40,000 for home games and taking more fans to away games than we generally do. Again, I would suggest that our fans are more likely to be targetted for those offences, so why the inconsistency in approach?

The figures don't indicate convictions either, but I would put money on the fact that the arrest to conviction rate is fairly low.

[Maesknoll Red]

Figures for the 2009-10 season here ...

http://www.homeoffic...-10?view=Binary

I find it astounding that there were fewer arrests from the previous year, but an increase in banning orders! Why?

Also, if you look at club by club figures. there are some odd discrepencies. Chelsea, for example had fewer arrests for alcohol related offences than we did, despite having attendances of 40,000 for home games and taking more fans to away games than we generally do. Again, I would suggest that our fans are more likely to be targetted for those offences, so why the inconsistency in approach?

The figures don't indicate convictions either, but I would put money on the fact that the arrest to conviction rate is fairly low.

I would suggest that its been nigh on impossible to enjoy watching City sober over the last 30 or so years, with one or two exceptions. I guess its easier to watch your team win the league and compete in the Champions League without liquid assistance.

[The FSF]

Hello, I'm Amanda Jacks from the Football Supporters Federation who I work for full time. Part of my role is to advise and assist any supporter who may find themselves arrested or banned by their club or who may like to bring a complaint against the police or a football club. We have access to excellent solicitors, both criminal and civil, and initial advice is given free of charge.

As many have pointed out, it is possible to get arrested and charged for an offence allegedly committed at a football match that may see you get no more than a slap on the wrist had it happened elsewhere. Following a charge, the CPS will apply for a banning order to be given; it is vital that anybody arrested secures decent legal representation which can and will make all the difference.

More info here: http://www.fsf.org.uk/fan-in-trouble.php and this is worth printing off: http://www.fsf.org.uk/media/uploaded/Bust-Cards-Web(1).pdf

www.fsf.org.uk

amanda.jacks@fsf.org.uk