thatcham red Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 The bubble match issue is something that really grates on me having invested time chairing meetings with football clubs and police forces to try and understand the reasons for them and how to overcome them. We were just getting there with Swansea, until they did the unthinkable and got themselves promoted. Now we see it still hanging around for the Cardiff games. I attended the original Cardiff bubble match by coach and vowed I would never travel like that again. As much as I would like to attend the cardiff match, I like many others, will not feel compelled to do so under restrictive conditions. Maybe as Chair of the Trust I should go and see for myself just how this "compromise" works in reality and take a considered view? On the other issue, yes TV money plays its part in the modern game, but really, some of the reasons for moving other fixtures vary from police advise, resting between games and clashing with other events. Do these really stack up? Anyway, these are just my personal thoughts. Below is a statement from the Supporters Trust about bubble fixtures and the constant moving of fixtures. Football fans generally feel they get a raw deal when travelling away to watch their team up and down the country. Whether it is late changes to fixtures due to television coverage, which often invalidates cheaper pre-booked travel, or simply made harder due to travel restrictions and policing demands; at Bristol City we are no different and just a quick glance at the away fixtures for this year will testify to this. Out of 23 away games, 9 are not on a Saturday. 4 fixtures have already been moved for various reasons:<br style=""> <br style=""> - Cardiff - Saturday 13 August 3pm, moved to Sunday 14 August 3pm - Millwall - Saturday 19 November 3pm, moved to Sunday 20 November 1.15pm - Southampton - Saturday 31 December 3pm moved to Friday 30 December 7.45pm - Nottingham Forest - Saturday 7 April 3pm moved to Friday 6 April 7.45pm<br style=""> <br style=""> Then we have Leicester away on a Wednesday, Coventry on a Monday, Palace, West Ham, Watford, Reading all on Tuesdays. Based on past experience, other fixtures will be moved throughout the season. All of this is compounded by the further travel restrictions placed upon City fans when travelling to Cardiff. Whilst we welcome some relaxation on the traditional "bubble" arrangements, it would be wrong to say that the compromise of picking up tickets at a motorway service station is a good solution. It is still discriminatory against innocent, law-abiding fans and will continue to significantly reduce the away following to this game in comparison to what it might be if unrestricted travel was possible.<br style=""> The Supporters Trust has long campaigned for a stop to "bubble" matches and cannot see how it makes commercial sense for football clubs to give up the revenue lost by away fans not travelling. We also maintain that it is simply a step too far for genuine, law abiding fans to have to comply with, and as a result will mean that many just will not bother. After all, Cardiff City won 'Family Club of the Year' last season and has genuinely been doing work to make away fans more welcome. It seems odd that whilst making more space available to accommodate families, on the other hand it is being made more difficult for them to actually get there. http://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/page/StadiumVisitors/0,,10335~1970097,00.html Once again, we call upon the Football Club and the Police authorities to relax these travel restrictions, especially as this fixture has already been moved to a Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taunton_City Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Talk to Leeds fans, they have had 13 away games moved! Yes some live on tv but most on "police advise" I don't mind games being moved for tv. Or on police advise is some cases as long as it's done well in advance. But the Cardiff issue is a joke, when the fixtures were released they would of known there was a rugby match on so why did they take 3 weeks to move it, then wait till end of July to tell us about tickets info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 there is no bubble its been lifted, and you can't stop fixture movments you never will, moaning about it won't change anything, If both us and the gas are drawn out of the computer or the cup and both get home ties one has to move, Other factors too TV is a big part of the game and they can't show 3 o'clock kick off's international matchs frozen pitchs, cup runs, All these are reasons games move, To stop city moving any fixtures you have to get rid of Bristol Rovers not enter any cup compations and take no TV money what so ever Also Taunton when fixtures are relised there is a 1 month dead line to move any fixtures you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knowle Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Talk to Leeds fans, they have had 13 away games moved! Yes some live on tv but most on "police advise" I don't mind games being moved for tv. Or on police advise is some cases as long as it's done well in advance. But the Cardiff issue is a joke, when the fixtures were released they would of known there was a rugby match on so why did they take 3 weeks to move it, then wait till end of July to tell us about tickets info! millwall game being moved for tv means 50% less away support, stoke away play off season huge huge game put on tv and we had 1500 there. tv and clubs need to talk to fans instead of ignoring them. well done trust its having a knock on effect now where half the away games are being ruled out for fans because fans are not being considered and cardiff sees support only a quarter of what it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 there is no bubble its been lifted Have you been to cardiff since the bubble has been "lifted" ? Its a right pain in the arse and not much of an improvement on the coach bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 there is no bubble its been lifted, and you can't stop fixture movments you never will, moaning about it won't change anything, You havent read the original post properly. Cardiff tickets have to be collected no more than an hour and a half before kickoff at a motorway station 30 minutes from the ground. That means there is no possibility of going into Cardiff and having a meal and/or a few drinks before the game. Cardiff is a lovely city to visit, the police have effectively removed the possibility of enjoying half a day there before the game. Part of the joy for some people of away games is experiencing other places not just the football; the police would rather restrict the libertiesof those law-abiding people than allow the possibility of City fans getting tanked up with the inevitable increased risk of trouble before the game. So in other words law abiding people suffer. As for moving other away games, there is no justification for moving Southampton and Forest to Fridays, both of which have ruined what would hve been good Saturdays out. Finally City will not have a single Saturday game in London this season, the odds against that would have been so remote that it is clear that there has been intervention to ensure that. Football is controlled by wheeler-dealers, chancers, TV, and the police, with ordinary fans shafted all over the place, well done I say for anyone that speaks out against any part of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taunton_City Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 No bubble????? Great so I can get the 08:51 train from Taunton, go for a few beers in Cardiff centre and stroll to ground when I want can I???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 yea I forgot the "Lifted" bit it would of made more sence then, thanks Riaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 my point is your rageing at somthing thats beyond anywones control and it won't change, Things have moved forward sinces the 70's when everything was 15:00 on a saturday, Take TV money if that is suddenly taken away then 92 league clubs would fold as no tv money means reduced sponsership money, reduced sponsership money means smaller budget and would hurt football, In a perfect world Police wouldn't be needed but we all no there is trouble at football not as much as there use to be granted but there still is so the police are needed and they ask for games to be moved due to resources other events etc... You will never change it no matter how much rageing fans do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 They've also just announced that the home leg against Millwall has been moved back a day to the 3rd of Jan at 7:45. Was meant to be the 2nd at 3pm. Again at the request of the police Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC1984 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Bubble lifted but you can only collect tickets at certain time/place so it may as well be a bubble match! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff65 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 New tv deal which starts next season is making Thursday night "Championship night". Sky tv will be using the championship as a way to compete with those uefa cup matches on itv4 and channel 5. Truth of the matter is that the police are using championship matches as something to kick around with. Show football fans the evidence not speculative conjecture of what may happen, ifs and maybes. Do they do this with Premier League clubs? do they **** because the media spotlight is far too bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never to the dark side Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Geoff65 Is it cast on stone that Championship games will be live on Sky on thursday's? Do you have a link? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 They've also just announced that the home leg against Millwall has been moved back a day to the 3rd of Jan at 7:45. Was meant to be the 2nd at 3pm. Again at the request of the police Don't see why you're angry about it Dolls. Its common sense. Milwall and City have a well known history and a 3pm ko when those concerned have been on the lash all morning is just fuelling the fire.It was never going to happen. Anyhow, I for one like evening games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kit Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 The Supports trust official statement just makes them out to look like a bunch of boring moaners. In the statement it says that "Football fans generally feel they get a raw deal when travelling away to watch their team up and down the country". I would like to know how that is substatiated, because I don't feel like that. Has a poll been carried out? Furthermore Coventry away on Boxing Day at 3pm is one of your non Saturday matches...... big moan. I am also not sure where all these magic saturdays that football isn't played on is coming from - shall we force teams to play without their international players, and let clubs suffer poor attendances because England are on TV on international weekeds at the same time as matches. Or alternatively play all through the summer when there are loads of spare saturdays. And all this hard suffering whch for me boils down to a Southampton game, which has moved from a Saturday when a lot of people will have other new year plans in the evening, to a friday night when a lot of people will already have time off and dont have to be in work the next day, and one game moved to Friday night (Notts F), when I know there have been posts on this forum from people wishing that they would bring back Friday night football at Home so one game in a season isn't so bad. All of that huge inconvenience is compounded by the fact that a Game, which the last time it was played without a bubble (and I was there) there was a huge amount of trouble which was difficult to avoid, has been moved and there are restrictions. To guarantee avoiding this trouble with no travel restrictions there would probably have to be such a huge police presence that it would cost them more to do so than the clubs lose out on lost ticket sales from extra fans. I enjoy being able to see live football on TV (of all teams), I also appreciate when away games are moved to be shown live on TV that I am able to see the game, as I am sure a lot of other poeple who would not have otherwise been able to see the game are grateful for this as well. I also welcome the money that TV brings to the game which allows for a higher Calibre of player. Also due to the fact that there is still a small, but not insignificant, number of people who will cause trouble if given an opportunity, the police will need to be involved until this can be stamped out altogether. All in all I struggle to see where this raw deal comes from and would just like to note that the supporters trust definately don't speak on my behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 and would just like to note that the supporters trust definately don't speak on my behalf. Nor mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollymarie Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Don't see why you're angry about it Dolls. Its common sense. Milwall and City have a well known history and a 3pm ko when those concerned have been on the lash all morning is just fuelling the fire.It was never going to happen. Anyhow, I for one like evening games. So now they book the day off and drink all day? People will just extend their Christmas holidays I guess. Pitch being frozen/surrounding areas being frozen due to it being an evening kick off, rather than in the middle of the day. Also its going to be bloody cold for all of us watching the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 So now they book the day off and drink all day? People will just extend their Christmas holidays I guess. Pitch being frozen/surrounding areas being frozen due to it being an evening kick off, rather than in the middle of the day. Also its going to be bloody cold for all of us watching the game. They are not all going to book the day off Dolly. As for the weather conditions, well the pitch could be frozen at 3pm just as readily as 7.45pm. Its often minus all day during the winter. And.....wrap up warm if its cold. No doubt you have gloves, hat and scarf like the rest of us do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatcham red Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 The Supports trust official statement just makes them out to look like a bunch of boring moaners. In the statement it says that "Football fans generally feel they get a raw deal when travelling away to watch their team up and down the country". I would like to know how that is substatiated, because I don't feel like that. Has a poll been carried out? Furthermore Coventry away on Boxing Day at 3pm is one of your non Saturday matches...... big moan. I am also not sure where all these magic saturdays that football isn't played on is coming from - shall we force teams to play without their international players, and let clubs suffer poor attendances because England are on TV on international weekeds at the same time as matches. Or alternatively play all through the summer when there are loads of spare saturdays. And all this hard suffering whch for me boils down to a Southampton game, which has moved from a Saturday when a lot of people will have other new year plans in the evening, to a friday night when a lot of people will already have time off and dont have to be in work the next day, and one game moved to Friday night (Notts F), when I know there have been posts on this forum from people wishing that they would bring back Friday night football at Home so one game in a season isn't so bad. All of that huge inconvenience is compounded by the fact that a Game, which the last time it was played without a bubble (and I was there) there was a huge amount of trouble which was difficult to avoid, has been moved and there are restrictions. To guarantee avoiding this trouble with no travel restrictions there would probably have to be such a huge police presence that it would cost them more to do so than the clubs lose out on lost ticket sales from extra fans. I enjoy being able to see live football on TV (of all teams), I also appreciate when away games are moved to be shown live on TV that I am able to see the game, as I am sure a lot of other poeple who would not have otherwise been able to see the game are grateful for this as well. I also welcome the money that TV brings to the game which allows for a higher Calibre of player. Also due to the fact that there is still a small, but not insignificant, number of people who will cause trouble if given an opportunity, the police will need to be involved until this can be stamped out altogether. All in all I struggle to see where this raw deal comes from and would just like to note that the supporters trust definately don't speak on my behalf. Good to hear a difference of opinion, it at least means there is some debate around this and keeps this forum doing what it's designed to do... Far from being moaners, we always seek to provide practical solutions to identified issues. We have been talking about bubbles to the relevant authorities for some time now, so nothing new here. You can pick apart the detail of the statement line by line, but the sad truth is that it is getting harder for football fans generally to follow their club away for various reasons. You only need to speak to fans of other clubs or trawl their message boards to see that. It sounds to me from your reply that you: A. Live in Bristol B. Prefer to watch away games on TV rather than travel to them In the time it took for me to create this post this morning, another fixture change was announced. The Millwall home match originally scheduled for 3pm on bank holiday Monday 2 January, is now at 7.45pm on Tuesday 3 January. For those of us (and Millwall fans) who don't live in Bristol, this means the likelihood of now taking time off work to travel to a game that would otherwise have not required this. Millwall came to us on the opening day last season and the match was well policed overall. What's so different about this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 The Supports trust official statement just makes them out to look like a bunch of boring moaners. In the statement it says that "Football fans generally feel they get a raw deal when travelling away to watch their team up and down the country". I would like to know how that is substatiated, because I don't feel like that. Has a poll been carried out? Furthermore Coventry away on Boxing Day at 3pm is one of your non Saturday matches...... big moan. I am also not sure where all these magic saturdays that football isn't played on is coming from - shall we force teams to play without their international players, and let clubs suffer poor attendances because England are on TV on international weekeds at the same time as matches. Or alternatively play all through the summer when there are loads of spare saturdays. And all this hard suffering whch for me boils down to a Southampton game, which has moved from a Saturday when a lot of people will have other new year plans in the evening, to a friday night when a lot of people will already have time off and dont have to be in work the next day, and one game moved to Friday night (Notts F), when I know there have been posts on this forum from people wishing that they would bring back Friday night football at Home so one game in a season isn't so bad. All of that huge inconvenience is compounded by the fact that a Game, which the last time it was played without a bubble (and I was there) there was a huge amount of trouble which was difficult to avoid, has been moved and there are restrictions. To guarantee avoiding this trouble with no travel restrictions there would probably have to be such a huge police presence that it would cost them more to do so than the clubs lose out on lost ticket sales from extra fans. I enjoy being able to see live football on TV (of all teams), I also appreciate when away games are moved to be shown live on TV that I am able to see the game, as I am sure a lot of other poeple who would not have otherwise been able to see the game are grateful for this as well. I also welcome the money that TV brings to the game which allows for a higher Calibre of player. Also due to the fact that there is still a small, but not insignificant, number of people who will cause trouble if given an opportunity, the police will need to be involved until this can be stamped out altogether. All in all I struggle to see where this raw deal comes from and would just like to note that the supporters trust definately don't speak on my behalf. Well thats okay for you - but most of us feel we get treated badly and the Supporters Trust at least try to give us a voice. So, as your happy, run along and let the trust get on and do what they do for the rest of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Kit, You seem to miss the main two points of the ST statement. On the subject of the travel restriction I really fail to see your point. When has policing been about money? Restricting supporters movements so that the Police don't have to do their jobs properly is akin to closing down a pub because there is a chance of trouble and it would be easier to close it than police it. Trouble happens, no doubt about it but why should I and every other innocent bystander be obstructed and have my basic civil liberties and freedom of movement completely quashed because of what can only be described as sheer laziness? Innocent until proven guilty is apparently the mantra of this nations criminal justice system, unless it involves football fans where it changes to guilt by association. If someone causes trouble, arrest them, lock 'em up and ban them from football. On the subject of fixture changes you have completely overlooked the main point. I don't think many people have a problem with fixture changes, especially when there is an obvious reason behind it. But to continually leave it to the last minute and cost fans train and coach tickets that they have pre-ordered in an attempt the soften the substantial financial burden of following the club away from home is a perfectly valid reason to "moan" Not everyone is happy to sit and watch on the television, just because you are doesn't mean the fight for a fairer approach to away travel and everything else mentioned is any less valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Kit, You seem to miss the main two points of the ST statement. On the subject of the travel restriction I really fail to see your point. When has policing been about money? Restricting supporters movements so that the Police don't have to do their jobs properly is akin to closing down a pub because there is a chance of trouble and it would be easier to close it than police it. Trouble happens, no doubt about it but why should I and every other innocent bystander be obstructed and have my basic civil liberties and freedom of movement completely quashed because of what can only be described as sheer laziness? Innocent until proven guilty is apparently the mantra of this nations criminal justice system, unless it involves football fans where it changes to guilt by association. If someone causes trouble, arrest them, lock 'em up and ban them from football. On the subject of fixture changes you have completely overlooked the main point. I don't think many people have a problem with fixture changes, especially when there is an obvious reason behind it. But to continually leave it to the last minute and cost fans train and coach tickets that they have pre-ordered in an attempt the soften the substantial financial burden of following the club away from home is a perfectly valid reason to "moan" Not everyone is happy to sit and watch on the television, just because you are doesn't mean the fight for a fairer approach to away travel and everything else mentioned is any less valid. sorry to pick on a point in your post Jorden but how can changeing a fixture on 17/07/11 (Southampton) for a game taking place on 31/12/11 be leaving it to the last minute The same goes for the forest game taking place in April and the millwall game in jan, Its not leave it to the last minute is it? I mean if they change the kick-off time for the ipswich game tomorrow to 14:00 then yes I can understand it but there not they are giving you alot more notice then you get with a train delay or a tube strike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff65 Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Geoff65 Is it cast on stone that Championship games will be live on Sky on thursday's? Do you have a link? Thanks search for thursday in this pdf : Thursday night football or page 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Knowle Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 The Supports trust official statement just makes them out to look like a bunch of boring moaners. In the statement it says that "Football fans generally feel they get a raw deal when travelling away to watch their team up and down the country". I would like to know how that is substatiated, because I don't feel like that. Has a poll been carried out? Furthermore Coventry away on Boxing Day at 3pm is one of your non Saturday matches...... big moan. I am also not sure where all these magic saturdays that football isn't played on is coming from - shall we force teams to play without their international players, and let clubs suffer poor attendances because England are on TV on international weekeds at the same time as matches. Or alternatively play all through the summer when there are loads of spare saturdays. And all this hard suffering whch for me boils down to a Southampton game, which has moved from a Saturday when a lot of people will have other new year plans in the evening, to a friday night when a lot of people will already have time off and dont have to be in work the next day, and one game moved to Friday night (Notts F), when I know there have been posts on this forum from people wishing that they would bring back Friday night football at Home so one game in a season isn't so bad. All of that huge inconvenience is compounded by the fact that a Game, which the last time it was played without a bubble (and I was there) there was a huge amount of trouble which was difficult to avoid, has been moved and there are restrictions. To guarantee avoiding this trouble with no travel restrictions there would probably have to be such a huge police presence that it would cost them more to do so than the clubs lose out on lost ticket sales from extra fans. I enjoy being able to see live football on TV (of all teams), I also appreciate when away games are moved to be shown live on TV that I am able to see the game, as I am sure a lot of other poeple who would not have otherwise been able to see the game are grateful for this as well. I also welcome the money that TV brings to the game which allows for a higher Calibre of player. Also due to the fact that there is still a small, but not insignificant, number of people who will cause trouble if given an opportunity, the police will need to be involved until this can be stamped out altogether. All in all I struggle to see where this raw deal comes from and would just like to note that the supporters trust definately don't speak on my behalf. I really dont think making the game more expensive and difficult for paying fans is a good thing. Fans are dropping the number of away games they do. Bit of consideration for away support is needed. tv might not be as interested if matches are played out in front of quiet crowds and hardly any away fans one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 sorry to pick on a point in your post Jorden but how can changeing a fixture on 17/07/11 (Southampton) for a game taking place on 31/12/11 be leaving it to the last minute The same goes for the forest game taking place in April and the millwall game in jan, Its not leave it to the last minute is it? I mean if they change the kick-off time for the ipswich game tomorrow to 14:00 then yes I can understand it but there not they are giving you alot more notice then you get with a train delay or a tube strike More about previous examples and already this season, Cardiff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 More about previous examples and already this season, Cardiff. I can't remember a season when the Cardiff game hasn't been moved tbh, but the ticket restriction is nothing to do with us or our local police, its purley the sheep shaggers as they are scared of our fans going over there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 I can't remember a season when the Cardiff game hasn't been moved tbh, but the ticket restriction is nothing to do with us or our local police, its purley the sheep shaggers as they are scared of our fans going over there yes, but they left it late to change again, costing fans either the cost of the ticket or the opportunity to buy a cheap ticket for train services to the game. That isn't on and is rightly being complained about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybythesea Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 i live in paignton and cant get back week nights its crap and me and son have season ticket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatcham red Posted August 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Don't see why you're angry about it Dolls. Its common sense. Milwall and City have a well known history and a 3pm ko when those concerned have been on the lash all morning is just fuelling the fire.It was never going to happen. Anyhow, I for one like evening games. Yes, Alan, fine if you live just down the road. Not so good for those City fans like me who work in London (along with several hundred Millwall fans). Why should fans who have purchased a season ticket in good faith have to pander to the minority of the troublesome few that can be effectively policed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolborn_and_red Posted August 2, 2011 Report Share Posted August 2, 2011 Is it just me who can see the wider implications? The police are officers of the law, they are not the law. They are there to uphold the laws that have been passed by parliament, whose residents are members of parliament that have been elected by us. In short they are there to work for us, to uphold our laws. If our laws are broken then we expect the police to act and to bring any suspected criminals before the courts on which the people will decide if they are guilty. This bubble situation (or even partial bubble) surely must be outside the jurisdiction of the police; to impose restrictions on everybody just because they might think someone might break the law is surely unlawful itself. They are there to react not determine. The wider implication i first mentioned is that these bubbles are curtailing a democratic right to the freedom of movement and must be opposed be it through boycott, demostration or representation. The police should react to the peoples wishes and not for us to react to theirs. That is the beginning of a police state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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