Poppies And Fifa

[LSR]

but its not commercial or political.......its a remembrance symbol.

[Kibs]

Why don't we just having them on the training gear during warm up etc and come out for the national anthems with them pinned to the jackets prior to kick off?

[solo1bc]

Why would we want a bunch of overpaid, spoilt, arrogant, ****wit, prima-donnas wearing it anyway? Let all the fans wear one but what does John Terry or Cashley Cole having a poppy on their shirt have to do with rememberence?!

None of them could give a toss about the badge on their shirt so why would they care about having a poppy and what it stands for? The current generation of footballers at that level (with the exception of a few) are so far removed from representing me or my country that this whole thing was probably thought up by some PR bloke at the FA or Umbro anyway.

[BristolCity1992]

but its not commercial or political.......its a remembrance symbol.

Which could be twisted by say Israel who could start wearing a remembrance symbol for all the service men lost in their "War" with Palestine, I would not want to see that and nor would many people.

It is a sensible rule in my opinion.

[Tunneller]

People would do well to remember what may have happened if those great men we honour on 11th November hadn`t cared. I don`t think we would be living the lives we do now if it wasn`t for their sacrifice.

Shame on those who don`t wear a poppy. And as for FIFA they can shove it as far as I am concerned.

Proud to be British on days like 11th November :englandsmile4wf:and thank you to all those who gave their lives for freedom. We owe them far more than the short sighted asses at FIFA would ever understand!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Okay, this view will be very unpopular- tin hat ahoy- and yes WWII was the ultimate sacrifice and no mistake. Heroes one and all. Subsequent wars though- Afghanistan, Iraq (2nd), to a lesser degree Libya and Kosovo? Hmmm, not so sure about that. WWI was originally the poppies- that war, was a war between elites of course- that war, what was gained exactly? Unlikely at that time that we ourselves would have been invaded. It was horrific and no mistake, but how much territory gained over those 4 years or so? In that period, of those wars going back to WWI the only real war which contained an existential threat to the nation was arguably WWII.

That said, poppies- down to the individual I think.

[Barrs Court Red]

I think FIFA are right. The rules are very clear. However as this is a friendly I'm not sure why it is under their jurisdiction

[publandlord]

So you run the FA

You know that there is a rule banning political religious or commercial emblems on shirts

Do you

A) ask FIFA if a non political/religious emblem like the poppy might break their rules OR

B) Wear the poppy without asking because it is not a political or religious emblem

Every other country would choose B but we are stupid enough to ask just in case and then whine when FIFA says no

This is typical of our FA who (when we had the best team in the world bar none), were too stupid and arrogant to bother entering the first 3 world cups - it would be nice to have an England shirt with 4 starts on it..

Don't blame Blatter blame the FA

[Judge Roughneck]

if the fa is really in a tizz about this they could replace the vauxhall ads near the goals with free advertising space for the british legion. and if that's not enough, they could also donate a large chunk of the gate receipts to the poppy appeal. oh.....

[mcbcfc]

Could we not wear a black armband with a poppy on it? Fifa say they can't change the shirt well this is not the shirt it is an armband.

[Lew - T]

Next, we won't be allowed to sing our national anthem

[IAmNick]

So you run the FA

You know that there is a rule banning political religious or commercial emblems on shirts

Do you

A) ask FIFA if a non political/religious emblem like the poppy might break their rules OR

B) Wear the poppy without asking because it is not a political or religious emblem

Every other country would choose B but we are stupid enough to ask just in case and then whine when FIFA says no

This is typical of our FA who (when we had the best team in the world bar none), were too stupid and arrogant to bother entering the first 3 world cups - it would be nice to have an England shirt with 4 starts on it..

Don't blame Blatter blame the FA

Don't talk nonsense, you can't just turn up wearing whatever you want without having it approved first.

I think they are 100% right in their decision. It's no reflection on the poppy or what it stands for in any way. The issue is that if it were allowed, other countries would want to follow suit with their own symbols, and no doubt some of them would have political meanings or an underlying political reference, which can be very hard to discern, and may mean very different things to different people. Once you allow one, you have to allow them all to some degree, or to be seen to be picking favourites which is completely against the point of having a neutral governing body.

[havanatopia]

Just in case anyone jumps on any bandwagon (not that I think they will but you never know), this isn't linked to anti Englishness- this is linked to long standing FIFA rules on commercialism with regards strips, political symbols etc...

Fact is, these rules apply to all nations equally. If we were playing ROI at the weekend, I couldn't see the wearing of poppies going down well due to the history.

The Red Poppy is an internationally-recognised symbol of remembrance and has been so since the end of the First World War.

I don't see the Irish connection as anything other than neutral in such a context.

[Red-Robbo]

Don't talk nonsense, you can't just turn up wearing whatever you want without having it approved first.

I think they are 100% right in their decision. It's no reflection on the poppy or what it stands for in any way. The issue is that if it were allowed, other countries would want to follow suit with their own symbols, and no doubt some of them would have political meanings or an underlying political reference, which can be very hard to discern, and may mean very different things to different people. Once you allow one, you have to allow them all to some degree, or to be seen to be picking favourites which is completely against the point of having a neutral governing body.

But it isn't a national symbol, it's an international one - there's a poppy day in all sorts of countries - and it stands for something quite separate to any government or party or commercial organisation. It stands for the act of remembrance. If you ban that, you may as well ban black armbands when there has been a death or the minute's silence.

[havanatopia]

Don't talk nonsense, you can't just turn up wearing whatever you want without having it approved first.

I think they are 100% right in their decision. It's no reflection on the poppy or what it stands for in any way. The issue is that if it were allowed, other countries would want to follow suit with their own symbols, and no doubt some of them would have political meanings or an underlying political reference, which can be very hard to discern, and may mean very different things to different people. Once you allow one, you have to allow them all to some degree, or to be seen to be picking favourites which is completely against the point of having a neutral governing body.

It is not OUR symbol. Get your fact right before spouting nonsense. The FIFA decision is crass and, by definition, is pro *unacceptable word*. (ok pro swastika) That is not an opinion either. think about it. think about what the red poppy stands for. But I would expect nothing less from the odious dwarf than runs the show.

[Bluebirds Boyo]

The Red Poppy is an internationally-recognised symbol of remembrance and has been so since the end of the First World War.

I don't see the Irish connection as anything other than neutral in such a context.

These wannabe Irish don't seem so neutral about it:

[Tins]

The most important thing isn't the poppy!!!!!!

ITS REMEMBERING OUR SOLDIERS!

I don't care we aren't allowed, move on.

Just as long as we remember that is all that matters. You don't need a poppy to remember.

[A red from the wood]

We should wear the poppy and so should the welsh and scots who have all made approaches to FIFA to wear them, only our FA have asked louder. FIFA should be forced to punish is and then face the wrath of the rest of the sporting and political world and lets be fair our standing could hardly be any lower with FIFA anyway.

On a separate point made earlier refering to national anthems and this really gets my goat but Flower of Scotland is NOT the national anthem of Scotland just like Men of Harlech is NOT the national anthem of Wales!!! GOD SAVE THE QUEEN is the national anthem of Great Britain and Northen Ireland and so is the national anthem of all four countries within

[havanatopia]

These wannabe Irish don't seem so neutral about it:

always a few.

[A red from the wood]

Wear the poppy force FIFA to punish us, our standing in FIFA can hardly be any lower anyway, and when they do punish us they will open the doors for every journalist in every paper in Britain to tear them apart corrupt bit by bit.

Also whist in rant mode.. Flower of Scotland and Men of Harlech though pasionate ARE NOT national anthems GOD SAVE THE QUEEN is the OFFICIAL anthem of GB & Northen Ireland,why the other home nations are allowed to ignore this has always been beyond me especially when we play them and they boo it that offends and p***** me right off.. Rant Over.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The Red Poppy is an internationally-recognised symbol of remembrance and has been so since the end of the First World War.

I don't see the Irish connection as anything other than neutral in such a context.

It's a thorny issue I think. I can see FIFA's line of reasoning- okay it is recognised as a symbol of rememberance- here certainly. However these rules have been in place for quite some while, they're not new- I think that at least most can agree on, that they're long-standing rules.

Putting that aside, let's say FIFA say 'Okay, you can wear the poppy on matchday.' What do you think will happen?

What I think will happen will be for example, some of the following:

1) Serbia saying 'Well, you let England wear their poppy, so at our next International in Belgrade, we may just commemorate Arkan.' Not cool- to Serb nationalists he's a hero, to many others he was a war criminal. Actually, Serbia are now talking about Kosovo in an interesting manner.

2) Same with Croatia and Tudjman- in fact they are in the same World Cup qualifying group so that has the potential to get very dodgy, very quickly. Still potential for issues with Serbia tbh- that in turn could set off war in Bosnia between 3 or more factions.

3) Armenia when they play at home. Turks claim there was no massacre, Armenia claim there was. Again, you risk inflaming historic tensions and hatreds. Again, this issue has flared up lately.

4) How about Macedonia- Greece object to them being called Macedonia going way back to Alexander the Great and actually put a full scale trade embargo on them, blocked international recognition of their independence etc, hence the FYR- once again, they might come out and put Macedonia only on their badges/shirts/whatever. Indeed, that issue has flared up again very recently it would seem and with Greece in full scale economic shit, a patriotic war with Macedonia may be just what the doctor ordered...

5) Afghan players- when their national team finally can play in Kabul- decide to commemorate fallen Taliban comrades!!

This list is endless and while in isolation, wearing poppies may seem harmless there are a lot of frozen conflicts out there, and this will risk setting a precedent. Indeed, one of the factors behind the start of the Balkans War 20 years or so ago- well there were 2. 1) A strident speech by Milosevic as the Serbs were commemorating a 600th anniversary of a defeat to the Turks in Kosovo in 1989 and 2) Boban in a Red Star- Dinamo Zagreb derby causing a riot. Eastern Europe is a bit ****** up I dare say, but it's amazing how quickly these things can be set off.

[The Bard]

It's a thorny issue I think. I can see FIFA's line of reasoning- okay it is recognised as a symbol of rememberance- here certainly. However these rules have been in place for quite some while, they're not new- I think that at least most can agree on, that they're long-standing rules.

Putting that aside, let's say FIFA say 'Okay, you can wear the poppy on matchday.' What do you think will happen?

What I think will happen will be for example, some of the following:

1) Serbia saying 'Well, you let England wear their poppy, so at our next International in Belgrade, we may just commemorate Arkan.' Not cool- to Serb nationalists he's a hero, to many others he was a war criminal.

2) Same with Croatia and Tudjman- in fact they are in the same World Cup qualifying group so that has the potential to get very dodgy, very quickly.

3) Armenia when they play at home. Turks claim there was no massacre, Armenia claim there was. Again, you risk inflaming historic tensions and hatreds.

4) How about Macedonia- Greece object to them being called Macedonia going way back to Alexander the Great, hence the FYR- once again, they might come out and put Macedonia only on their badges/shirts/whatever.

This list is endless and while in isolation, wearing poppies may seem harmless there are a lot of frozen conflicts out there, and this will risk setting a precedent. Indeed, one of the factors behind the start of the Balkans War 20 years or so ago- well there were 2, a strident speech by Milosevic as the Serbs were commemorating a 600th anniversary of a defeat to the Turks in Kosovo in 1989 and secondly Boban in a Red Star- Dinamo Zagreb derby causing a riot. Eastern Europe is a bit ****** up I dare say, but it's amazing how quickly these things can be set off.

I didn't anticipate a discussion on Balkan history on a Bristol City Supporters forum....

Anyway

1. That is a fair point. We are remembering men and women who died defending our country but we are also remembering men and women who died whilst invading and then occupying other countries. I still pay respects to those who have done either. When a soldier signs up, they forego the choice of conflict. However, we should recognise that others could understandably view this as something more than simply remembrance.

2. Probably not. The blood letting is recent, meaning that they are probably more inclined to want to go back to a period of getting on. If you look at the voting patterns of the Eurovision Song Contest, this will be borne out. This is no frozen conflict. However, it was up to 1991.

3. This is a frozen conflict. Only the Turkish state doesn't accept that about 300,000 Armenians were slaughtered in the process of Turkey being ethnically cleansed at the beginning of WW1. Everyone with any knowledge of this part of history knows it happened but Turkey was too important to NATO after WW2 and is now hugely important to the West with regard to the Middle East and Islam to be nudged into accepting this part of its history. Armenia is not influential enough to do anything about it. If it had oil or was strategically important in moving oil to western europe, Turkey would have apologised decades ago.

4. Interesting one. This is about the Greeks being worried about a burgeoning Macedonia laying claim to Solonika and the surrounding area all of which only became part of Greece in the 19th century. Hence the Former Yugoslav Republic bit. which defines its borders.

Personally, I think the FA shoud stay stum and I would be happy to see the England players wearing poppies. If the players made the decision to wear them, then it would be much harder for FIFA to sanction the FA. The players would also be showing welcome signs of having character.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I didn't anticipate a discussion on Balkan history on a Bristol City Supporters forum....

Anyway

1. That is a fair point. We are remembering men and women who died defending our country but we are also remembering men and women who died whilst invading and then occupying other countries. I still pay respects to those who have done either. When a soldier signs up, they forego the choice of conflict. However, we should recognise that others could understandably view this as something more than simply remembrance.

2. Probably not. The blood letting is recent, meaning that they are probably more inclined to want to go back to a period of getting on. If you look at the voting patterns of the Eurovision Song Contest, this will be borne out. This is no frozen conflict. However, it was up to 1991.

3. This is a frozen conflict. Only the Turkish state doesn't accept that about 300,000 Armenians were slaughtered in the process of Turkey being ethnically cleansed at the beginning of WW1. Everyone with any knowledge of this part of history knows it happened but Turkey was too important to NATO after WW2 and is now hugely important to the West with regard to the Middle East and Islam to be nudged into accepting this part of its history. Armenia is not influential enough to do anything about it. If it had oil or was strategically important in moving oil to western europe, Turkey would have apologised decades ago.

4. Interesting one. This is about the Greeks being worried about a burgeoning Macedonia laying claim to Solonika and the surrounding area all of which only became part of Greece in the 19th century. Hence the Former Yugoslav Republic bit. which defines its borders.

Personally, I think the FA shoud stay stum and I would be happy to see the England players wearing poppies. If the players made the decision to wear them, then it would be much harder for FIFA to sanction the FA. The players would also be showing welcome signs of having character.

I'd go along with a lot of that. Like you say, it should be a decision by the players, for the players. My general point- though a bit long winded- was allow this and a real can of worms risks being opened. That last bit at least is a point of potential risk which I stand by.

[The Batman]

screw fifa

if the British Royal Legion gave Mr Blatter a few hundred thousand pieces of paper with the queens head on in a brown paper bag, I imagine it would be approved with no fuss.

As fifa have to approve of the shirts in the first place, would the Umbro, Nike etc logo's have to be taken off due to commercial purposes??? or is it cuz fifa make money from them, it is allowed???

I say get the designers to make a kit specifically for games over this weekend and have a poppy drawn on the shirt. The English rugby shirt has the english rose.

[grifty]

Why would we want a bunch of overpaid, spoilt, arrogant, ****wit, prima-donnas wearing it anyway? Let all the fans wear one but what does John Terry or Cashley Cole having a poppy on their shirt have to do with rememberence?!

one of them could give a toss about the badge on their shirt so why would they care about having a poppy and what it stands for? The current generation of footballers at that level (with the exception of a few) are so far removed from representing me or my country that this whole thing was probably thought up by some PR bloke at the FA or Umbro anyway.

What a blind numpty! You have fallen for the papers hook line and sinker. JT and Cole had affairs. Wow. I bet a few people on here have too. Should they be stopped from wearing poppies? It's not these players fault clubs are going to offer them £150,000 a week. What are they going to say? "Err, no thanks, I'll have £27,000 a year to keep with the UK average." And they are lucky to get paid, what do you expect them to spend it on? Live in a terrace house and drive an old Ford Fiesta? I never understood blaming the players for the amount of money they get paid.

If they are stupid, I'd prefer them to be playing football than playing with electricity...

I see what you did with Cole's first name. Cashley. Makes it sound like he's obsessed with money. Even though since he left Arsenal, they've not won anything and Chelsea have won plenty of trophies. Seems like a clever move to me.

But you keep on with your general sweeping incorrect statements and overlook the money footballers give to charity (Agbonlahor gave £11,000 to a hospital wing - OK, probably a quarter of a weeks wages, but more than you've ever given) as well as the time they give them (look at how often City players go to childrens hospitals).

God knows where you made up the bit in bold.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

What a blind numpty! You have fallen for the papers hook line and sinker. JT and Cole had affairs. Wow. I bet a few people on here have too. Should they be stopped from wearing poppies? It's not these players fault clubs are going to offer them £150,000 a week. What are they going to say? "Err, no thanks, I'll have £27,000 a year to keep with the UK average." And they are lucky to get paid, what do you expect them to spend it on? Live in a terrace house and drive an old Ford Fiesta? I never understood blaming the players for the amount of money they get paid.

If they are stupid, I'd prefer them to be playing football than playing with electricity...

I see what you did with Cole's first name. Cashley. Makes it sound like he's obsessed with money. Even though since he left Arsenal, they've not won anything and Chelsea have won plenty of trophies. Seems like a clever move to me.

But you keep on with your general sweeping incorrect statements and overlook the money footballers give to charity (Agbonlahor gave £11,000 to a hospital wing - OK, probably a quarter of a weeks wages, but more than you've ever given) as well as the time they give them (look at how often City players go to childrens hospitals).

God knows where you made up the bit in bold.

The Cashley Cole remark is years old coined by Arsenal fans after dear Ashley twittered "Arsenal only offered me 55k per week" to Arsenal fans his excuse after the illegal approach from Chelsea.

[Northern Red]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but England have played matches in November for many years, so why has this never been an issue until now?

[Red-Robbo]

These wannabe Irish don't seem so neutral about it:

Wannabe is the right word here. Most Irishmen would not associate with that brain-dead rabble.

More than 200,000 Irishmen - around 10% of the male population - volunteered to fight with British forces in WW1. The number dwarfs the number of Irishmen involved in the Easter rising (4,000 tops) and it is worth stressing that both Unionists and Nationalists took part. About 50,000 died.

For this reason, every year, the President of the Republic of Ireland lays a wreath of poppies on the Irish National War Memorial in Islandbridge.

The death rate in Ireland was about the same as that on the British main land - despite the fact that due to the political situation there, conscription was not compulsory in the island.

[havanatopia]

It's a thorny issue I think. I can see FIFA's line of reasoning- okay it is recognised as a symbol of rememberance- here certainly. However these rules have been in place for quite some while, they're not new- I think that at least most can agree on, that they're long-standing rules.

Putting that aside, let's say FIFA say 'Okay, you can wear the poppy on matchday.' What do you think will happen?

What I think will happen will be for example, some of the following:

1) Serbia saying 'Well, you let England wear their poppy, so at our next International in Belgrade, we may just commemorate Arkan.' Not cool- to Serb nationalists he's a hero, to many others he was a war criminal. Actually, Serbia are now talking about Kosovo in an interesting manner.

2) Same with Croatia and Tudjman- in fact they are in the same World Cup qualifying group so that has the potential to get very dodgy, very quickly. Still potential for issues with Serbia tbh- that in turn could set off war in Bosnia between 3 or more factions.

3) Armenia when they play at home. Turks claim there was no massacre, Armenia claim there was. Again, you risk inflaming historic tensions and hatreds. Again, this issue has flared up lately.

4) How about Macedonia- Greece object to them being called Macedonia going way back to Alexander the Great and actually put a full scale trade embargo on them, blocked international recognition of their independence etc, hence the FYR- once again, they might come out and put Macedonia only on their badges/shirts/whatever. Indeed, that issue has flared up again very recently it would seem and with Greece in full scale economic shit, a patriotic war with Macedonia may be just what the doctor ordered...

5) Afghan players- when their national team finally can play in Kabul- decide to commemorate fallen Taliban comrades!!

This list is endless and while in isolation, wearing poppies may seem harmless there are a lot of frozen conflicts out there, and this will risk setting a precedent. Indeed, one of the factors behind the start of the Balkans War 20 years or so ago- well there were 2. 1) A strident speech by Milosevic as the Serbs were commemorating a 600th anniversary of a defeat to the Turks in Kosovo in 1989 and 2) Boban in a Red Star- Dinamo Zagreb derby causing a riot. Eastern Europe is a bit ****** up I dare say, but it's amazing how quickly these things can be set off.

Sorry but i do not see the similarity between regional conflicts and THE Great War. its not called that for no reason. It is a war that contaminated the world; the red poppy is an INTERNATIONAL symbol not a British one alone.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sorry but i do not see the similarity between regional conflicts and THE Great War. its not called that for no reason. It is a war that contaminated the world; the red poppy is an INTERNATIONAL symbol not a British one alone.

Clearly one war is of far greater magnitude than the others- not in doubt at all. These conflicts are all separate and no mistake. Still, FIFA rules state what they state for better or worse and apply equally to all. What I don't understand is why this hasn't (well in my memory anyway) been an issue in the past. Opens up a real can of worms I maintain, but I guess I'm in a minority on that.

As an aside, many say the Great War started in the Balkans, assassination of Franz Ferdinand etc. I digress though, we'll agree to differ on this one eh.