CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 This season above all others has brought home to me how painfully expensive football is, the amount players are paid and the difference between now and when I started watching in the 80s. The solution to all of this, in my view, is quite draconian but I know my own views would never get out of the starting blocks, so I won't even bother going into detail. BCFC reduced ticket prices for some games at the tail end of this seasons and, although they were for key games, the attendances prove that what is keeping thousands away from Ashton Gate - and many other grounds - is simply cost. It is far too expensive unless you are a season ticket holder (and even then for many). Lets be honest, if you are a family of four you are very unlikely to POTD without going 'ouch'. We might not command the attraction of other clubs with a more deep-seated history of success but we can certainly draw fans as long as we're not ripping them off. I'm not sure the football league was created with a fans charter, but if the game was going to be introduced from scratch it surely would have to include 'affordability for the common wo(man)'. In order to do this the clubs would have to ensure that ordinary fans could afford it. I agree that football needs to cover its costs and this will always underpin the cost of tickets. However, the cost that overrides everything else is the amount players are paid. The UEFA financial fair play approach seems to have some legs and I think the Championship was going to introduce something similar until the chairman bottled it (correct me if I'm wrong). The UEFA approach is that players can only account for 60% of turnover, so its not a wage cap as such. Seems far more reasonable than what we have now. If this was a blanket rule across all of football I can only believe that this would have the effect of bringing down wages for alomst all clubs. It has to. Indirectly the clubs costs will reduce and the foreign sugar Daddy would have to find another sport. SL has been great for us, but maybe we would never have needed him if Sky Sports had never existed! I'm resigned to accepting that football will now always be this way. Sky Sports dominate the purse strings and, despite the ill feeling towards them from many fans, armchair fans will always lap it up (and pay for it). When you look at FIFA, UEFA, and the FA you'll see football isn't being run by football fans. It should be. Can this ever change? Any institution that votes for itself serves itself. End of. I would love to see each club's fans vote a rep. Those reps vote for a national rep for UEFA etc. Lets do away with the suits. Whilst we're at it, it won't take more than one meeting with some of those nice chocolate biscuits for the UK reps to wipe cheating from our domestic game. If the commercial rules change too much then Manchester United fc.com plc.tv say they'll bugger off and create a new league. I'd love them to. Cheerio. Is there a soultion to all of this? Am I the only one who believes we're stuck with it and that if we ever reach the promised land we'll be celebrating success with an increase to £45 POTD? COYR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ournicky Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Make tickets too cheap then you will get over subscribed need a stadium 60,000 +, Too expensive and empty seats is an issue, I think you have to strike a balance, I was chatting to someone yesterday who is a ST with Exeter, he pays £350!! I think if you look at our pricing in comparison to other clubs we dont get a bad deal. I have to make other sacrafices for my ST, Gave up smoking back in 2003 pays for a family ST and our family holiday. You make your choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 In our case I do think we are far better value for money than most, but let's face it, we are heavily subsidised by SL. Football is nothing like other businesses so shouldn't be run as if it is. It needs rules to protect the greater good of all. I think we lack any of those rules. I think the majority of fans would love to see some sort of indirect wage cap, so why isn't it happening? I believe its because fans have no influence. And maybe most fans really believe .... "I think a wage cap is good so long as my club isn't really affected". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 A limited form of financial fair play is coming in for the Championship, it has been agreed in principle and will be phased in over time. There are some details here. The unique difficulty for the Championship is the massive revenue gap with the Prem, you need a situation where teams promoted can attempt to compete to stay up without falling foul of the rules for the season or two after they come back down. Whilst these rules will be a good thing for football club stability they won't reduce ticket prices. They will have the opposite affect as there will be _more_ pressure to increase revenue once the short cut through investment is removed. At this point the only thing that will cause ticket prices to decrease is if attendances drop, the largesse of a (rare) benevolent owner choosing to keep them low and funding the difference won't be feasible any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Nibor - sounds like we're stuck with it then, 'cause I don't see the armchair or chinese supporter disappearing any time soon, so the Sky Sports money will continue to flood in. Having said all of that, any Championship club entering the prem is likely to have less debt than almost all existing prem clubs. Surely that's a good footing to be on? The reason they struggle is they can't risk spending silly on players and falling away with chronic long-term debt. Good. But this means better players won't join them (European football aside). What underpins this is the massive wages offered by indebted big clubs. If we remove their abilty to splash big by linking to revenue then the whole thing will be far more stable. OK. ManUre will always have greater revenue, but after that everything is far more on a level platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Very interesting points but for better or worse, football has changed and will never change back to the way it was. Rose tinted spectacles tell us that the fans experience was considerably better in the 1980s/1990s, but really it wasn't. Run-down shambolic stadiums, awful pitches, poorer football at every level, violence on the terraces and in the streets around a ground. The problem for me is the way the clubs have become seperated from the fans. Sky Sports has contributed significantly to this, but the clubs seem to hav lost sight of who they exist for and that's what needs to change. On the issue of pricing, I definitely think that there is middle ground between the £10 offers (where the club is likely to make less profit-even on a sell out) and the £30 POTD prices that keep people away. As with everything in football, its about the economics. It would be great if the FL introduced something saying that, for example, 20% of a club had to be owned by a fans trust which any fan can buy into for a fixed price, i.e. £100. That trust then has a seat on the board and an influence at the club, with the more fans buying in the more money goes to the club. I rarely get down to Ashton Gate as I live in Manchester and i'm perpetualy skint, but i'd find the money to be able to say I owned part of my club Football won't go back to how it was in the 80s and IMO shouldn't do, but that doesn't mean clubs couldn't do things to bring them back in line with the expectations and desires of their fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCAGFC Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Players wages have to come down significantly to allow football to be sustainable over the long term, how that is done is another matter. Wage caps, % of turnover, maximum wage per division, whatever it is, it needs to happen soon or a lot of FL clubs will cease to be very soon. All the above could be brought in if there were clear, stringent penalties for trying to get around the rules (eg: image rights, off shore bank accounts, black suitcases, brown paper bags, etc, etc) An automatic 2 division relegation with no appeal process, would stop the rule breakers IMO, Something has to be done soon. BCAGFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 chipwawg - you make some great points. The 80s was crap for so many reasons, but it didn't cost me much, that's what I miss. I don't remember too many clubs screwing their local comminuties by going into administration either. Something needs to be done to correct this financial debacle by reducing costs. Instead of chasing the promised land by spending money, maybe clubs will have to look at things like youth development. Even allow clubs to go over 60% of revenue so long as every penny goes into their academies. "Buying success" might become a phrase of the past too. In fixing the problems of overspending we should be able to make the game more affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Nibor - sounds like we're stuck with it then, 'cause I don't see the armchair or chinese supporter disappearing any time soon, so the Sky Sports money will continue to flood in. Unfortunately yes. The Prem offer exclusive rights because there's more money to be had that way. Sky aren't under any serious competition in the UK so get to charge as much as the market will bear for advertising and to subscribers. It's all set up to maximise revenue for the clubs who then idiotically piss it all way competing for players. To be cynical you could take the view that FFP is only happening because it creates a profit opportunity for clubs - if they aren't allowed to spend 100% on competing for players that money has to go somewhere. Sadly it won't be to reduce ticket prices or into grass roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Players wages have to come down significantly to allow football to be sustainable over the long term, how that is done is another matter. Wage caps, % of turnover, maximum wage per division, whatever it is, it needs to happen soon or a lot of FL clubs will cease to be very soon. All the above could be brought in if there were clear, stringent penalties for trying to get around the rules (eg: image rights, off shore bank accounts etc, etc) An automatic 2 division relegation with no appeal process, would stop the rule breakers IMO, Something has to be done soon. BCAGFC I think the % of turnover rule is being suggested as the wage cap is illegal under EU law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 To be cynical you could take the view that FFP is only happening because it creates a profit opportunity for clubs - if they aren't allowed to spend 100% on competing for players that money has to go somewhere. Sadly it won't be to reduce ticket prices or into grass roots. A good point. If they make a profit, what could they choose to spend it on? Their stadiums? Increased marketing to drive revenue growth and financial flexibility? Maybe some clubs who have empty seats will reduce prices as this is one way to improve on-pitch performance. In our case if we had an extra 2000 in the stands maybe over a season that would be as good as having 1 or 2 players at a higher level of performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCAGFC Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 I think the % of turnover rule is being suggested as the wage cap is illegal under EU law. Well there is a salary cap in L1 & L2, so why not the Championship, the PL will always make their own rules to suit themselves. As for EU law, got us out of it ASAP. BCAGFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 I think the % of turnover rule is being suggested as the wage cap is illegal under EU law. How do they make it work in rugby then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Well there is a salary cap in L1 & L2, so why not the Championship, the PL will always make their own rules to suit themselves. As for EU law, got us out of it ASAP. BCAGFC I thought it was actually a turnover cap in reality? Maybe I'm wrong. I found a quote on this page which says - "in League Two, they’ve had a salary cap for a while – the percentage was 60% and I think they are going forward with 55%." I didn't see evidence saying it was £100k per player or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 How do they make it work in rugby then? What's the maximum a player can earn in Rugby? Are you sure such a rule exists? EDIT: reading up, the cap in the Aviva Prem appears to be £4m for the squad. Its not player specific from what I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 What's the maximum a player can earn in Rugby? Are you sure such a rule exists? EDIT: reading up, the cap in the Aviva Prem appears to be £4m for the squad. Its not player specific from what I can see. The salary cap in rugby is for a total spend on player wages. I suspect this circumvents freedom of trade regs because it doesn't limit the earning potential of an indivdual. It also probably doesn't matter because specific leagues have their own caps and players have the option of going elsewhere. I imagine some of the higher profile clubslike Leicester, Saracens, Northampton find ways around it anyway A salary cap will only work if its global IMO, someone somewhere will always be prepared to stick their hand in their pocket to pay someone an obscene amount of money to kick a bag of air around a field Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 What's the maximum a player can earn in Rugby? Are you sure such a rule exists? EDIT: reading up, the cap in the Aviva Prem appears to be £4m for the squad. Its not player specific from what I can see. Unless I'm reading it wrong there is an absolute maximum a Premier League player can earn of £240K http://www.premiershiprugby.com/information/salary_cap.php When you think about it, there is a salary cap in lots of jobs. Yonks ago I was a civil servant - each grade has a maximum salary and I could only earn more by promotion. Even at the highest levels there was a maximum I could earn. It would be nice if all clubs could get together and say they would not deal with football agents - they've been an even bigger engine of football wage inflation than Sky has been. It won't ever happen, but it's a nice dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Interesting seeing this pop up today on the news. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17841566 Will have to read into it to see whether its all talk or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Interesting seeing this pop up today on the news. http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/17841566 Will have to read into it to see whether its all talk or not. Those new rules will affect City. Not allowing owners to finance clubs by loans... Isn't that what SL does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted April 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Those new rules will affect City. Not allowing owners to finance clubs by loans... Isn't that what SL does? He does. So be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 This season above all others has brought home to me how painfully expensive football is, the amount players are paid and the difference between now and when I started watching in the 80s. The solution to all of this, in my view, is quite draconian but I know my own views would never get out of the starting blocks, so I won't even bother going into detail. BCFC reduced ticket prices for some games at the tail end of this seasons and, although they were for key games, the attendances prove that what is keeping thousands away from Ashton Gate - and many other grounds - is simply cost. It is far too expensive unless you are a season ticket holder (and even then for many). Lets be honest, if you are a family of four you are very unlikely to POTD without going 'ouch'. We might not command the attraction of other clubs with a more deep-seated history of success but we can certainly draw fans as long as we're not ripping them off. I'm not sure the football league was created with a fans charter, but if the game was going to be introduced from scratch it surely would have to include 'affordability for the common wo(man)'. In order to do this the clubs would have to ensure that ordinary fans could afford it. I agree that football needs to cover its costs and this will always underpin the cost of tickets. However, the cost that overrides everything else is the amount players are paid. The UEFA financial fair play approach seems to have some legs and I think the Championship was going to introduce something similar until the chairman bottled it (correct me if I'm wrong). The UEFA approach is that players can only account for 60% of turnover, so its not a wage cap as such. Seems far more reasonable than what we have now. If this was a blanket rule across all of football I can only believe that this would have the effect of bringing down wages for alomst all clubs. It has to. Indirectly the clubs costs will reduce and the foreign sugar Daddy would have to find another sport. SL has been great for us, but maybe we would never have needed him if Sky Sports had never existed! I'm resigned to accepting that football will now always be this way. Sky Sports dominate the purse strings and, despite the ill feeling towards them from many fans, armchair fans will always lap it up (and pay for it). When you look at FIFA, UEFA, and the FA you'll see football isn't being run by football fans. It should be. Can this ever change? Any institution that votes for itself serves itself. End of. I would love to see each club's fans vote a rep. Those reps vote for a national rep for UEFA etc. Lets do away with the suits. Whilst we're at it, it won't take more than one meeting with some of those nice chocolate biscuits for the UK reps to wipe cheating from our domestic game. If the commercial rules change too much then Manchester United fc.com plc.tv say they'll bugger off and create a new league. I'd love them to. Cheerio. Is there a soultion to all of this? Am I the only one who believes we're stuck with it and that if we ever reach the promised land we'll be celebrating success with an increase to £45 POTD? COYR! I completely agree that it's cost that is keeping fans away. It's fine if you can commit to a season ticket and go every week. But there are many fans who would like to go, but can't commit because of work or family commitments. So many would like to make the decision to go, a few day's before the match...even on the day of the match. Paying £30 for a ticket...getting to the ground and a having few beers...adds up to way too much outlay. Sitting in a bar with mates watching a game on TV, like i did with the Chealsea game last night...costs so much less and can be just as much fun if not more. TV definately hasn't helped. There is simply too much football on tv imho. Also the quality of football, doesn't go hand in hand with the cost and entertainment value. So many games are just boring to watch. Many go out of habit...not for the entertainment and quality on show. I really find it impossible to understand how our players can be paid £8,000 a week and more...for what? Do they give us so much entertainment they are worth that? No where near... It's very much a catch 22. Clubs know this too. They know fans will keep coming. So prices continue to rise. Unfortunately the only way it will change is if Clubs start to regularly go out of business. Nobody wants it to happen at their Club...but for the bigger picture, teams like Rangers and Pompey need to be wound up. Football needs to implode before it gets better. The easiest way is for fans to stop going for a season. It won't happen...but Clubs would have to change. Even if they went out of business...for the good of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 He does. So be it. I agree...let it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 I guess someone's listening http://www.football-league.co.uk/footballleaguenews/20120425/league-clubs-choose-financial-fair-play_2293334_2748233 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cloud Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Did I hear correctly on SSN, if you get promoted to the Prem and are found to have broken these rules you get fined? - if so, as promotion's suppose to be worth £90 million, surely worth the risk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 £10-15 million fine if your found guilty, its going to put loads of teams off going for promotion... It's only really going to hurt the teams in the bottom half of the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 The solutions proposed are quite strong. From a City pov, if my understanding is roughly correct, we will need to downsize drastically or upsize wagebill wise unless we hit the Prem- 2 seasons to reduce our annual losses to £6m, regardless of SL...good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 It's going to discourage crooks like Briatore gambling by spending way beyond their small club's means in order that he is able to sell on at a profit. I really hope they go down. Horrible club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverface Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 Can't see a 60% of turnover on wages working. You'll always get a greedy chairman who wants the best players, so instead of paying the players through the club they'll pay them another way. i.e. Employ them as a spokesperson for their private firm, or give the players wives £15K a week as a secretary etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cloud Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 £10-15 million fine if your found guilty, its going to put loads of teams off going for promotion... It's only really going to hurt the teams in the bottom half of the table. sounds like the £48 million get for relegation is going to be even bigger advantage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted April 25, 2012 Report Share Posted April 25, 2012 "BCFC reduced ticket prices for some games at the tail end of this seasons and, although they were for key games, the attendances prove that what is keeping thousands away from Ashton Gate - and many other grounds - is simply cost. It is far too expensive" I've looked at other sports. Silverstone must be a save for all year job. The Formula 1 Grand Prix at Silverstone on a Sunday; £53 to park your car or £65 if you intend camping there Friday - Sunday. The camping will set you back a further £70 for each adult, £30 for children. Then to watch just the practice on a Friday costs £65, £85 for the Saturday and the Sunday race day has the cheapest ticket at £145. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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