East End Old Boy Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Some may or may or may not of had tickets, that is something no enquiry will ever be able to determine the exact numbers. I know people don't want to hear this and it WAS the result of gross mismanagement but the reason those poor souls died was because those fans from outside of the stand/stadium continued to push their way forward into the ground, they may have been sober and unaware of their actions but that is what happened. Nothing will change that. The cover up which lets be honest was clear to see for a long time is disgusting and needs to be addressed. I think this is the full 389 pages of the report in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 It's not just the cover up that is shocking, the fact that all those police did nothing and watched some 41 injured people die in front of them that they could and should have saved, why were the ambulances prevented from saving these lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 It's not just the cover up that is shocking, the fact that all those police did nothing and watched some 41 injured people die in front of them that they could and should have saved, why were the ambulances prevented from saving these lives? One of the mothers said yesterday that some victims just had coats put over there bodies, they were presumed dead. These were then ignored because of that presumption. Another mother said that she was told 23 years ago that her son called "mum" just before 4pm,45 minutes after the 3.15 pm time that supposably everyone was dead. An ambulance woman said that they had Oxygen in there van at 3.15 but were stopped from going into the ground by police. That Oxygen would have saved several life's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugarwray Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 With no disrespect at all intended to the subject matter but does anyone remember watching City on the day and how this was handled. I had in my mind that City were playing Southend at Ashton Gate (we lost 0-2), but the archives seem to suggest that was on 8 April and on 15 April we were away at Blackpool (won 1-2). My memory (which must be playing tricks) was that I was at Ashton Gate on the day and that at half time there was a vague announcement that the game was suspended and that at the end of the game a more serious announcement was made and the crowd seemed to pick up that it was a black day. This was in the times before mobile/text/3g and when you were in a football ground the only source of external communication was the PA system or the half time score boards. I know it was depicted in the film Fever Pitch well. Back in those days health and safety were low on the list, there was a real and present danger attached to attending football that does not exist these days and the interaction with the police was hostile at times with certain forces seeming to have it in for the fans of certain clubs. My sense on the day was that a disaster like this had been on the cards for a number of years, I had been at Hillsbrough prior to that for a league cup semi with Liverpool earlier and it was dangerous by any standard. I have to trust the internet archives above my memory these days but does anyone recall the experience of watching City on the day? Have just checked the programmes City were at home to Blackpool, lost 1-2, newly arrived Bob Taylor scored, Steve McLaren played, crowd just over 5,000 (earlier we had 23,000 for Rovers and 28,000 for the Forest game, same weekend that Bruno lost to Tyson) The next home game was midweek with Huddersfield with no time for any Hillsbrough mention due to printing deadlines, Taylor got his first City hat trick. The following programme has a picture of theHuddrsfield pre-match photo with a floral tribute, John Bailey had pain etched on his face. The supporters club took flowers, scarves and other tributes to Anfield, over 5,000 GBP had been raised by the supporters club by then. Strangely Joe Jordan's programme notes made no mention of the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryans Left Peg Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 One of the mothers said yesterday that some victims just had coats put over there bodies, they were presumed dead. These were then ignored because of that presumption. Another mother said that she was told 23 years ago that her son called "mum" just before 4pm,45 minutes after the 3.15 pm time that supposably everyone was dead. An ambulance woman said that they had Oxygen in there van at 3.15 but were stopped from going into the ground by police. That Oxygen would have saved several life's. Correct, Kevin Williams, aged just 15 called for his mum just as he passed. This is from the lips of the nurse who was trying to care for him at the time. People have tried to argue that since he broke his neck in three places it wouldn't have been possible, and this allowed the big "cover-up" to dismiss it pretty much out of hand, however it has been proved since he would have managed to say small words, albeit in pain. This whole thing is sickening and although as a Liverpool Supporter it's relieving, justice still needs to be served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsobigfatdave Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here though I want to qualify it with a few things first. If you'd asked me this time last year on who's shoulders the majority of the blame for the Hillsborough disaster disaster lay, I'd have said unruly, ticketless Liverpool fans. After listening to others on here and reading more about the tradgedy, it became more and more obvious that the mismanagement of the situation by authorities was the major factor in the death of those football fans. What was released yesterday now makes it obvious that much of that mismanagement was actually gross negligence. However, don't for a second think that anything in that report disproved a thing that TRL or notsobigfatdave have claimed they saw. The police reports included in the report clearly state that the officers at the Leppings Lane turnstiles believed they had 'lost control' of the crowd by 2.35pm. Now there were obviously a number of contributory factors as to why that crush occurred, but occurred it did. That is not disputed by the report. So you can take a number of views on that; I believe in personal responsibility, others believe in the omnipotence of the state. I think that people shoved and pushed to get themselves into the ground, others believe that failures of public transport and traffic issues left them with no choice. The thrust of the report is (quite rightly) directed towards the events inside the ground but what everyone is ignoring and the report skirts around is that the gates were opened to alleviate a crush outside the ground. So I don't think it's fair to chastise those who recount what they saw with allegations that it was like 'a gig' or 'travelling on the tube'. Police officers climbed up in the gates and were dragging people out of the crowd. Again, that's in the report so the situation was clearly very serious outside the ground I think one of the saddest reactions to this whole thing has been the idea that this report somehow exonerates all football fans. It doesn't, it merely highlights the differences between then and now. This was an era of widespread violence on Saturday afternoons. It was an era when the report explicitly states that the SYP should have expected such a situation. It was an era where English teams were banned from competing in Europe because of Heysel (which was the straw that broke the camels back). The 96 didn't die because of hooligans or football-related violence but they died because attending football matches in 1989 wasn't as safe as it could or should have been. They died because the police had seen so much bad behaviour in the preceeding years that they regarded them as animals in a pen rather than human beings. That's not a defence of the position the police took as it was indefensible but it's a statement of fact, in black and White in the report. That's not to say we couldn't have safe standing back in football, but those who decry the loss of 'casual culture' or 'the old day's' should remember that it was in that environment that this tragedy occurred I'm sure I'll get dogs abuse for this post, I apologise for it's length. I would ask that people respond to it in a considered manner rather than just shouting me down and if you disagree with any if the assumptions or assertions I've made, then please pull me up on them but I ask that you at least read the summaries of the report first Cheers Yep that just about sums it up for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notsobigfatdave Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 You or otheres are still falling for the lies though, there is NO evidence to say there were ticketless fans. Some people still dont get it after 23 years, There is no evidence to suggest Mary was a virgin but 1.2 billion Catholics belive she was.... Its not lies, those fans at the Leppings turnstiles in 89 mainly had tickets.. several thousands mulling around did not. There were appeals on Rdio and TV days before the match for fans without tickets not to travel. Why do you think that was. ? This was because the Liverpool supporters were disgruntled at both the ticket allocation ( 6,000 less than Forest even though their Crowds were regularly 25,000 more) and the Allocation of that end of the Ground which had a capacity of 15,000. If there were no Ticketless fans at the Leppings lane end then the twin towers are still standing. One of our Party infact didnt have a ticket and was hoping to buy from a tout on the day....he was unsuccessful ! he vividly remembers one tout boasting he could sell a thousand tickets if he had them. ! QED. Get it ? Thats all from me on this Topic... I hope those that were innocent do get Justice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 About the subsequent high level cover up of this tragedy, this is what can and will happen when members of a secret boys club called the freemasons are left unchecked in the police, ambulance and crown prosecution services, but especially the police service, I will put money on the fact that everyone of the main players in this scandal are all freemasons, right down to the mere pc in charge of the police federation, that is why they were chosen to be part of the cover up by the then chief constable and his other freemason minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 There is no evidence to suggest Mary was a virgin but 1.2 billion Catholics belive she was.... Its not lies, those fans at the Leppings turnstiles in 89 mainly had tickets.. several thousands mulling around did not. There were appeals on Rdio and TV days before the match for fans without tickets not to travel. Why do you think that was. ? This was because the Liverpool supporters were disgruntled at both the ticket allocation ( 6,000 less than Forest even though their Crowds were regularly 25,000 more) and the Allocation of that end of the Ground which had a capacity of 15,000. If there were no Ticketless fans at the Leppings lane end then the twin towers are still standing. One of our Party infact didnt have a ticket and was hoping to buy from a tout on the day....he was unsuccessful ! he vividly remembers one tout boasting he could sell a thousand tickets if he had them. ! QED. Get it ? Thats all from me on this Topic... I hope those that were innocent do get Justice... I've already said that I'm not nieve enough to know there wasnt ticketless fans. What I said was there wasn't evidence to show this( regarding the sun and other papers saying there was). Ticketless fans were not to blame for anything,even though I still get the feeling that deep down you think they were. 8 years earlier the FA cup semi between Spurs and Wolves was played at the same ground. The exact same scenario as 89 was played out around the turnstile area and inside the ground. Fans were crushed and injured and many fans had to climb the fences to get out of the Leppings lane terrace and on to the pitch. They were treated for serious crush injuries, but fortunately there were no fatalities. Now,do you think this was down to the layout of the ground and turnstile area or down to ticketless fans?. You say there were several thousand ticketless fans around! So why did these several thousand fans not enter the ground when the gates were opened( the answer is obviously that there wasn't several thousand without tickets but have it your way) Read the report, the Leppings lane end was NOT over capacity when the game was stopped,photographic evidence backs this up. So If as you claim there were thousands mulling around without tickets, then surely at least a couple of thousand would have gone through the gates ticketless, it's what happens isn't it. This would have then obviously showed that the end was over capacity. Regarding telling people not to travel without tickets, this was/is the norm for every game that is sold out. Liverpool fans finally after 23 years have been found innocent of all the bollocks spouted during that time, perhaps it's time to accept that. One last point,Forest had 4,000 more tickets than Liverpool,not 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Read the report, the Leppings lane end was NOT over capacity when the game was stopped,photographic evidence backs this up. Not that I'm implying it was the cause of the tragedy, but after they opened the gates to alleviate the crush outside the turnstiles, they closed them again with thousands of fans still outside. That's also mentioned in the report. Dave may have his opinions on the causes and suchlike that don't tally up with the report, but you and several other posters on here shouldn't be telling him what he did and didn't see. The report actually talks very little about what happened outside the ground because the real tradgedy and the biggest mistakes occurred inside the ground and after the crush occurred. There's actually very little in there to disprove anything he's said, other than a lack of evidence either way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Not that I'm implying it was the cause of the tragedy, but after they opened the gates to alleviate the crush outside the turnstiles, they closed them again with thousands of fans still outside. That's also mentioned in the report. Dave may have his opinions on the causes and suchlike that don't tally up with the report, but you and several other posters on here shouldn't be telling him what he did and didn't see. The report actually talks very little about what happened outside the ground because the real tradgedy and the biggest mistakes occurred inside the ground and after the crush occurred. There's actually very little in there to disprove anything he's said, other than a lack of evidence either way Fine, no problem at all with what you say. I would ask though,do ticketless fans look different from everyone else??. Very strange how he can pick them out when no one else is able to. For Dave to come out and say "there were several thousand mulling around" (without tickets) sounds like he may have been there working for the Sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Fine, no problem at all with what you say. I would ask though,do ticketless fans look different from everyone else??. Very strange how he can pick them out when no one else is able to. For Dave to come out and say "there were several thousand mulling around" (without tickets) sounds like he may have been there working for the Sun. I take your point and it is perhaps a bit of a stab in the dark to put a figure of 'thousands' on the number of ticketless fans, but it doesn't really matter if there were 10 or 10 million: the report isn't saying it was their fault and the and Dave isn't saying it was their fault. For a game for which Liverpool could have sold many more tickets, it stands to reason there will have been a fair few people looking for a tout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In the Net Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 The touts also have "runners" who move amongst the crowd for them, asking if anybody has spares, any tickets purchased will be taken back to the tout, then off they go again, asking for spares. So some of the numbers of ticketless fans, are an illusion created by these runners doing the same thing again and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 About the subsequent high level cover up of this tragedy, this is what can and will happen when members of a secret boys club called the freemasons are left unchecked in the police, ambulance and crown prosecution services, but especially the police service, I will put money on the fact that everyone of the main players in this scandal are all freemasons, right down to the mere pc in charge of the police federation, that is why they were chosen to be part of the cover up by the then chief constable and his other freemason minions. Indeed, the Police have their own freemasonary lodges as do the military. There's absolutely no doubt that if you want to progress in the Police or as a Police Crown Prosecution Service lawyer then you must do favours for and the bidding of those higher up in the lodge. This inevitably leads to corruption on an industrial scale as per the Hillsborough cover up. As for American freemasonary, according to our Dad those U.S. Presidents that were not freemasons ended up getting assassinated. Make your own mind up about the real nature of freemasonary but there are some very genuine and honest people in the ordinary lodges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 About the subsequent high level cover up of this tragedy, this is what can and will happen when members of a secret boys club called the freemasons are left unchecked in the police, ambulance and crown prosecution services, but especially the police service, I will put money on the fact that everyone of the main players in this scandal are all freemasons, right down to the mere pc in charge of the police federation, that is why they were chosen to be part of the cover up by the then chief constable and his other freemason minions. With regard to the corrupt lawyers that form the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), here's an excerpt on an article published today about them with regard to Hillsborough...... Police lies 'known for 14 years' Press Association Documents outlining the police's role in covering up the Hillsborough disaster were handed to the Crown Prosecution Service 14 years ago, it has been claimed. Writing in The Independent newspaper, Alun Jones QC, who led a private prosecution for manslaughter on behalf of the families, said the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) needed to explain "why his office did absolutely nothing", even after being given detailed evidence that outlined the depth of the conspiracy. Mr Jones told the newspaper the Hillsborough Family Support Group launched the private prosecution of Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield and his deputy Bernard Murray - who were in charge when 96 Liverpool fans died on April 15, 1989 - because of the DPP's failure to act. Source: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-lies-known-14-years-050807611.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Indeed, the Police have their own freemasonary lodges as do the military. There's absolutely no doubt that if you want to progress in the Police or as a Police Crown Prosecution Service lawyer then you must do favours for and the bidding of those higher up in the lodge. This inevitably leads to corruption on an industrial scale as per the Hillsborough cover up. As for American freemasonary, according to our Dad those U.S. Presidents that were not freemasons ended up getting assassinated. Make your own mind up about the real nature of freemasonary but there are some very genuine and honest people in the ordinary lodges. indeed there are, but within the police, military, ambulance and crown prosecution services, they are only in it for themselves, to advance their careers and to protect themselves when they **** up, it should be made absolutely illegal for the police, judiciary and crown prosecution services to be members of the freemasons the two has and never will be compatible certainly not where the administering of justice is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 With regard to the corrupt lawyers that form the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS), here's an excerpt on an article published today about them with regard to Hillsborough...... Police lies 'known for 14 years' Press Association Documents outlining the police's role in covering up the Hillsborough disaster were handed to the Crown Prosecution Service 14 years ago, it has been claimed. Writing in The Independent newspaper, Alun Jones QC, who led a private prosecution for manslaughter on behalf of the families, said the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) needed to explain "why his office did absolutely nothing", even after being given detailed evidence that outlined the depth of the conspiracy. Mr Jones told the newspaper the Hillsborough Family Support Group launched the private prosecution of Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield and his deputy Bernard Murray - who were in charge when 96 Liverpool fans died on April 15, 1989 - because of the DPP's failure to act. Source: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-lies-known-14-years-050807611.html Crikey, there all in on it. Where is this going to go? Corruption all the way to the top, the families knew this all along and I hope they don't stop untill they weed out every last one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eco Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 indeed there are, but within the police, military, ambulance and crown prosecution services, they are only in it for themselves, to advance their careers and to protect themselves when they **** up, it should be made absolutely illegal for the police, judiciary and crown prosecution services to be members of the freemasons the two has and never will be compatible certainly not where the administering of justice is concerned. An ex-SYP copper who called in to Vic Derbyshire's Hillsborough phone in on 5 Live was about to spill the beans about freemasonry in SY Police when they suddenly cut away and failed to return to him. Shame, could have been interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 An ex-SYP copper who called in to Vic Derbyshire's Hillsborough phone in on 5 Live was about to spill the beans about freemasonry in SY Police when they suddenly cut away and failed to return to him. Shame, could have been interesting. They are everywhere mate, the BBC will be awash with freemasons, i'm sure the BBC will cover it up as being sub judice. The problem is who will investigate the freemason link another police freemason/freemasons?, will they even bother to make the link that everybody involved in such a high level cover up WILL BE A FREEMASON, believe me with a cover up of this proportion there is no way a non freemason would never have been trusted. The police, judiciary and crown prosecution membership of the freemasons has always been national disgrace bordering on the criminal and one which should have been outlawed many years ago, police/freemason corruption goes back many years, an armed robbery in the 60's/70's at the Daily Express Fleet Street, London was not only believed to have been planned and even executed by members of metropolitan police 'flying squad', but also covered up because of their freemasonry backgrounds, when uncovered by the anti corruption 'operation countryman'. it stinks, it always has, it always will and freemasonry within the police, judiciary and crown prosecution services will never be outlawed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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