Hillsborough

[RedUn]

I will say it again, "I have been stewarded and policed properly"........ that day the Liverpool fans were not.

Exactly.

Among large crowds there have always been and always will be people without tickets, people arriving late and people who've had a drink (perhaps even some who have had too much).

In recognition of these facts and the basic "herd mentality" of large numbers of people all converging on a comparatively small area over a short period of time, various crowd handling measures (turnstiles, marshalling, barriers, gangways, etc) are put in place. This filters out the chancers and the drunks and channels those entitled to be there in an orderly fashion to where they should be.

At Hillsborough those with the responsibility of overseeing those measures got it wrong. If a sea wall is breached the tide rushes in and crowds behave in exactly the same way if turnstiles are by-passed and marshalling/directional information absent; there is no more point in suggesting that a crowd should behave better in those circumstances than in trying to send back the waves.

[Portland Bill]

Of course there were ticketless fans; it was an FA cup semifinal in the days when the FA cup was still the most famous club competition in the world. Why would there be documentary evidence of something that occured at every game of similar stature? Who would feel the need to go surveying people for their ticket status. What there is no direct evidence of is that those fans charged the turnstiles en mass to try and gain entry, but lets not pretend this was akin to people awaiting the opening of Glyndebourne or the Proms

The reason there were hundreds around the turnstiles is because the organisation of the police was non existent.

There wasn't a rush on the turnstiles there wasn't a mass rush when the gates were opened( watch the video on YouTube it's there for you to see).

The only evidence re tickets is that people still had there whole tickets in the ground, because they werent checked when the gates were opened. This is the only fact re tickets.

You have fallen into the trap of assuming things,the very thing people fought 23 years to dispel.

Honestly, we have had a report consisting of 4,500 pages of evidence and people are still making it up.

Facts are facts,assuming something is entirely different.

[Portland Bill]

How was anyone meant to know that the pens were full though? I mean, the people trying to get in.

You have it in one,the gates were opened at 8 minutes to 3,the only area visable to all the fans who went through was the tunnel which led everyone into the central pen.

As we know this pen was already massively over crowded.

The incompetence of the Police meant that there was no directing anyone to the outer pens.

The ground ( as we now know had no safety certificate) was in a state of dis repair,

This obviously contributed to the crash barriers( which buckled) not being up to standard.

All this has been covered time and time again for 20+'years, but still some people, either don't understand or don't want to listen.

[NOTR]

You have it in one,the gates were opened at 8 minutes to 3,the only area visable to all the fans who went through was the tunnel which led everyone into the central pen.

As we know this pen was already massively over crowded.

The incompetence of the Police meant that there was no directing anyone to the outer pens.

The ground ( as we now know had no safety certificate) was in a state of dis repair,

This obviously contributed to the crash barriers( which buckled) not being up to standard.

All this has been covered time and time again for 20+'years, but still some people, either don't understand or don't want to listen.

I'd save your breath portland,theres none so blind and all that.

[Portland Bill]

Do you really want an answer to that?.

Yes

[NOTR]

What I find most disturbing is the fact that the ambulance service are also involved in the cover up.There are certain police forces who you expect to be complete tossers SYP,WEST MID ,THE MET, but the ambulance service,ffs.Also its incredible that one of the senior police officers involved was later given the job of chief constable of Merseyside,insensitive or what.

[Mr Mosquito]

What I find most disturbing is the fact that the ambulance service are also involved in the cover up.There are certain police forces who you expect to be complete tossers SYP,WEST MID ,THE MET, but the ambulance service,ffs.Also its incredible that one of the senior police officers involved was later given the job of chief constable of Merseyside,insensitive or what.

The ambulance that did get onto the pitch at Hillsborough to attend the injured was a 'St John's Ambulance'. I understand the St John's Ambulance service to be a volunteer-led, charitable and non-governmental organisation. So, it seems that the Police were able to stop the NHS ambulances attending the victims but they were not able to stop the St John's Ambulance due it being part of an international and non-governmental organisation?

[Pezo]

You or otheres are still falling for the lies though, there is NO evidence to say there were ticketless fans.

Some people still dont get it after 23 years,

Sorry, I thought there was evidence to support there were lots of ticketless fans. Please replace ticketless fans with pushing fans.

[WayOutWest]

Sorry, I thought there was evidence to support there were lots of ticketless fans. Please replace ticketless fans with pushing fans.

To be clear. So you understand in plain English.

It's irrelevant wether there was ticketless fans or ticketed fans.

LIVERPOOL FANS ARE NOT TO BLAME!!!! Regardless if they had a ticket or not.

Is that clear enough?

[chipdawg]

The reason there were hundreds around the turnstiles is because the organisation of the police was non existent.

There wasn't a rush on the turnstiles there wasn't a mass rush when the gates were opened( watch the video on YouTube it's there for you to see).

The only evidence re tickets is that people still had there whole tickets in the ground, because they werent checked when the gates were opened. This is the only fact re tickets.

You have fallen into the trap of assuming things,the very thing people fought 23 years to dispel.

Honestly, we have had a report consisting of 4,500 pages of evidence and people are still making it up.

Facts are facts,assuming something is entirely different.

I've obviously not expressed myself properly as your the second person to have completely missed what I was trying to say. It was a major football match in 1989. I think it's taken as a given that there will be large numbers of people there and the point I was trying to make (in response to a post which claimed there were NO ticketless fans in Sheffield that day) is that like any event of that size and nature, there will be people on the blag after tickets. I'm not trying to infer any blame for anything on anyone in what I've posted, let alone the Liverpool fans. But you've gone off on a tangent and accused me of peddling mistruths. I can actually back up my assertions with what is written in the report, cab you?

I should add though that I fully agree (as I've said elsewhere) that ticketless or not, Liverpool fans were not to blame for the tradgedy so this is pretty much a redundant argument

[Portland Bill]

The ambulance that did get onto the pitch at Hillsborough to attend the injured was a 'St John's Ambulance'. I understand the St John's Ambulance service to be a volunteer-led, charitable and non-governmental organisation. So, it seems that the Police were able to stop the NHS ambulances attending the victims but they were not able to stop the St John's Ambulance due it being part of an international and non-governmental organisation?

Not true, the ambulances were all stopped from going in to the ground. Then at 20 past 3 an ambulance turned up and the driver was told you can't go in because there is "crowd trouble"

He told the police where to go, put his siren on etc and drove straight through them into the ground.

This is fact,it's on a Hillsborough documentary which can be found on YouTube.

[Mr Mosquito]

Not true, the ambulances were all stopped from going in to the ground. Then at 20 past 3 an ambulance turned up and the driver was told you can't go in because there is "crowd trouble"

He told the police where to go, put his siren on etc and drove straight through them into the ground.

This is fact,it's on a Hillsborough documentary which can be found on YouTube.

....the point I'm making is that the ambulance that did get onto the pitch to attend the victims was a St John's ambulance. The St John's ambulance service is an offshoot of the Knights of St John - an ancient supranational military order dating back to the crusades. I'm no expert on international law but I thought military and cilivian Police are not allowed to impede Red Cross workers and St John's ambulances etc. Watch the video again because I remember the ambulance to be a St John's ambulance not an NHS ambulance.

[Portland Bill]

I've obviously not expressed myself properly as your the second person to have completely missed what I was trying to say. It was a major football match in 1989. I think it's taken as a given that there will be large numbers of people there and the point I was trying to make (in response to a post which claimed there were NO ticketless fans in Sheffield that day) is that like any event of that size and nature, there will be people on the blag after tickets. I'm not trying to infer any blame for anything on anyone in what I've posted, let alone the Liverpool fans. But you've gone off on a tangent and accused me of peddling mistruths. I can actually back up my assertions with what is written in the report, cab you?

Apologies if I have come across in the way you say. There was no intention of accusing you of mistruths.

I'm not nieve enough to know that there would have been people outside the ground without tickets.

I said a couple of days ago that every Liverpool game involves touts trying to sell and buy tickets.

My point, ( which I probably didn't put across very well) is just that there is no evidence to suggest that ticketless fans contributed in any way to the crush inside or outside the ground.

[chipdawg]

Apologies if I have come across in the way you say. There was no intention of accusing you of mistruths.

I'm not nieve enough to know that there would have been people outside the ground without tickets.

I said a couple of days ago that every Liverpool game involves touts trying to sell and buy tickets.

My point, ( which I probably didn't put across very well) is just that there is no evidence to suggest that ticketless fans contributed in any way to the crush inside or outside the ground.

Well on your last point I think we pretty much agree. I suspect there were fans outside the Leppings Lane end who didn't have tickets, but I don't think whether the fans there had tickets or not had any baring on what happened inside the ground or that any blame should be attached to them

[Portland Bill]

....the point I'm making is that the ambulance that did get onto the pitch to attend the victims was a St John's ambulance. The St John's ambulance service is an offshoot of the Knights of St John - an ancient supranational military order dating back to the crusades. I'm no expert on international law but I thought military and cilivian Police are not allowed to impede Red Cross workers and St John's ambulances etc. Watch the video again because I remember the ambulance to be a St John's ambulance not an NHS ambulance.

Just watched it again mate, your right it was a St Johns ambulance. A brave man driving it,the only one who stood up to the Police.

[Mr Mosquito]

What I find most disturbing is the fact that the ambulance service are also involved in the cover up.There are certain police forces who you expect to be complete tossers SYP,WEST MID ,THE MET, but the ambulance service,ffs.Also its incredible that one of the senior police officers involved was later given the job of chief constable of Merseyside,insensitive or what.

My guess is that the NHS ambulance drivers and crews were threatened or coerced by the corrupt Police at Hillsborough and by the Police lawyers of the Crown Prosecution Service. We'll find out for sure in due course but I really don't believe that ambulance crews or their bosses would have made up lies about the events at Hillsborough unless they'd been severely threatened in some way.

[Portland Bill]

My guess is that the NHS ambulance drivers and crews were threatened or coerced by the corrupt Police at Hillsborough and by the Police lawyers of the Crown Prosecution Service. We'll find out for sure in due course but I really don't believe that ambulance crews or their bosses would have made up lies about the events at Hillsborough unless they'd been severely threatened in some way.

Regarding the falsifying of statements,on radio five this morning a policeman who was on duty on the day,phoned in.

He said that yesterday was the first time he had found out that his statement had been changed.

His whole last paragraph of his statement had been taken out.

It seems it was not the ordinary PC that changed anything, it was further down the chain that the statements got changed.

Probably the same applied to the Ambulance service.

[Portland Bill]

I'd save your breath portland,theres none so blind and all that.

Your right mate, it's just the ignorance that gets me.

[TRL]

To be clear. So you understand in plain English.

It's irrelevant wether there was ticketless fans or ticketed fans.

LIVERPOOL FANS ARE NOT TO BLAME!!!! Regardless if they had a ticket or not.

Is that clear enough?

No, not in the slightest

I was pushed shoved and herded by supporters of Liverpool, not the police or stewards, I was aware of police and stewards trying to calm people down and shouting to stop shoving and pushing, you will get in.

Yes it could of been me. But unlike the herd, I had the good sense to think it wasn't worth it. And went back, which was bloody hard considering the weight coming towards me and a minority of numpties rushing the back of the queue laughing and joking about the whole thing.

Maybe you just needed to be there.

[Mr Mosquito]

Regarding the falsifying of statements,on radio five this morning a policeman who was on duty on the day,phoned in.

He said that yesterday was the first time he had found out that his statement had been changed.

His whole last paragraph of his statement had been taken out.

It seems it was not the ordinary PC that changed anything, it was further down the chain that the statements got changed.

Probably the same applied to the Ambulance service.

Pretty crap for the ordinary PCs on duty that were doing their very best to help save the crush victims, then they had their statements altered without their knowledge and are tarred with the same brush as the corrupt senior South Yorkshire Police.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Yes

Bill before I answer the question, what is your opinion on fans standing at all seater prem/championship games?, I have today learned that it is not illegal but it is contrary to ground regulations and can be dealt with by ejection from the ground. I have added the link. Bear in mind this was one of the recommendations of the Taylor report post Hillsborough.

if an incident occurred for instance because fans were standing and lives were lost, would you blame the police or the stewards for not doing their jobs?.

in answer to the question, we have 2 people on this forum who were actually there and decided for whatever reasons that they were not going to enter the ground. Do you believe if they were real Liverpool fans (and i'm sure you have seen the clips of lengths and dangers Liverpool fans went to enter wembley for the 86 cup final against Everton) they would have made the same decision?.

Before your usual aggressive response, we all know the truth THE POLICE WERE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT OCCURRED AND THE SUBSEQUENT COVER UP IS A NATIONAL DISGRACE and I hope and expect prosecutions to follow, we all get that but without the push there is no crush, there must have been a point where some fans actually made comment to people behind them about pushing but that obviously did not stop the pushing and has never stopped the pushing at any game I ever attended even with my son when he was very young.

THE LAW ON STANDING IN ALL-SEATED GROUNDS

- Ever since the introduction of all-seater stadia, many supporters have continued to stand in front of their seats, often for the duration of the game.

- It is widely believed that this practice is illegal. This is not the case, even within Premier League and Championship grounds. The law only provides that these clubs should provide seats for all supporters, not that supporters must sit on them.

- The point is confirmed by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport: ‘At no point has it been argued that the individual spectator commits a criminal offence by standing in a seated area’ (Source: Letter to Football Supporters Federation, 2008)

- Standing in seated areas, is, however, contrary to ground regulations. For example, the Football League’s model set of ground regulations states: ‘Nobody may stand in any seating area whilst play is in progress. Persistent standing in seated areas whilst play is in progress is strictly forbidden and may result in ejection from the ground’.

- It is notable that the two rules are contradictory, the first bars all ‘standing’, the second only ‘persistent standing’. In practice, standing to go to the toilet or snack bar and standing at ‘moments of excitement’ is permitted. The boundary between ‘moments of excitement’ and ‘persistent’ is rather grey and open to very wide interpretation.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Regarding the falsifying of statements,on radio five this morning a policeman who was on duty on the day,phoned in.

He said that yesterday was the first time he had found out that his statement had been changed.

His whole last paragraph of his statement had been taken out.

It seems it was not the ordinary PC that changed anything, it was further down the chain that the statements got changed.

Probably the same applied to the Ambulance service.

I alluded to this yesterday, 116 officers changing statements without one single whistle blower was not credible, but others knew better.

[Portland Bill]

"before my usual aggressive response"

Dear oh dear, I'm not going to bother with a reply to your question.

Your ignorance of the actual facts of Hillsborough are clear for all to see.

You always have your own agenda, and I can't be bothered to be sucked into it.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

"before my usual aggressive response"

Dear oh dear, I'm not going to bother with a reply to your question.

Your ignorance of the actual facts of Hillsborough are clear for all to see.

You always have your own agenda, and I can't be bothered to be sucked into it.

I haven't got an agenda and nor do most of the people that you are raging against, your the one with the agenda, you just haven't got an answer to the valid question, because it wouldn't suit your agenda.

and feel free to explain from what I have said that is in fact ignorance about Hillsborough?.

[Portland Bill]

How was anyone meant to know that the pens were full though? I mean, the people trying to get in.

Esmond, your answer to this was," Do you really want an answer to this"

I said "yes"

Now, you haven't answered the question have you. When will you give the answer you promised.

I'm not being side tracked by you asking questions about all sweater stadia etc.

Why don't you just give the answer you wanted to give, re the original question.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

How was anyone meant to know that the pens were full though? I mean, the people trying to get in.

Esmond, your answer to this was," Do you really want an answer to this"

I said "yes"

Now, you haven't answered the question have you. When will you give the answer you promised.

I'm not being side tracked by you asking questions about all sweater stadia etc.

Why don't you just give the answer you wanted to give, re the original question.

May I suggest you read again, I have answered your question in full, I will help you it's the last 2 paragraphs. Beyond the bit you took offence to.

My question is hardly a side track, it was a direct recommendation from the Taylor report after Hillsborough and is being ignored at virtually every single all seater stadium, I am just asking whose fault 'knowing what we know now' if such an incident occurred now? it is an important point pertinent to the broader discussion.

[Portland Bill]

[Esmond Million's Bung]

My own personal view on standing in all seater stadium is that it's fine.

I would still have terracing if I had my way.

Going back to Hillsborough, I've started reading the report, I haven't read much yet, but have already come across this.

24. On opening Gate C there was no instruction given to the SYP officers inside the stadium to manage the flow and direction of the incoming crowd.

25. From the documents provided to the Panel it is clear that the crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles outside the stadium was not caused by fans arriving 'late' for the kick-off. The turnstiles were inadequate to process the crowd safely, and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up of people outside the ground.

Plus this from theFA cup semi final 8 years earlier, at Hillsborough.

1. In 1981 before the FA Cup Semi-Final between Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers there was serious congestion at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and crushing on the confined outer concourse. It resulted in the opening of exit Gate C to relieve the crush. The disclosed documents indicate that entry into the stadium was managed by South Yorkshire Police (SYP) officers on duty and Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (SWFC) stewards.

2. What followed was a serious crush on the terraces in which many people were injured and fatalities narrowly avoided. At that time lateral fences did not divide the Leppings Lane terrace into pens, and fans were able to move sideways along the full length of the terrace; others escaped onto the perimeter track through the narrow gates in the perimeter fence.

So as you can see it wasn't the first time.

Spurs fans had the same problems, fortunately no lives were lost in 1981.

I don't why you are showing me this, I know the police are to blame, I also know that fans arriving late, ticketless fans, drunkeness or hooliganism did not cause the crush, I don't know how many times I and several other posters need to tell you this, I also know as I have already alluded to it on this thread about the anecdotal evidence of problems at previous semi finals, Hillsborough/Leppings Lane was I believe described in yesterdays report as a 'death trap' and 'a disaster waiting to happen'. What I am saying is without the pushing from people trying to get into the ground there would be no crush and I am sure that many fans on the day complained to the people behind to stop pushing.

I have watched football all over the world and football fans are incredibly single minded when entering a ground (to not miss any of the action) and on leaving the ground (not to miss last orders) and complaining about the pushing would just fall on deaf ears, that is the way it has always been and will always be, you know that when exiting Aldershots ground at a night game where you to navigate a winding slope in poor light, it's dangerous enough without a big crowd trying to get out.

I understand your anger, I am angry I hope that every right minded British citizen/football supporters are angry but you are turning that anger on the wrong people.

By the way I agree with you about terracing, but you haven't answered the question, who would get the blame for a tragedy caused by people standing in an all seater stadium? and more importantly how could anyone the police or stewards possibly enforce that ground regulation?, but i'm damn sure they would get the blame for not enforcing it.

[Portland Bill]

I don't why you are showing me this, I know the police are to blame, I also know that fans arriving late, ticketless fans, drunkeness or hooliganism did not cause the crush, I don't know how many times I and several other posters need to tell you this, I also know as I have already alluded to it on this thread about the anecdotal evidence of problems at previous semi finals, Hillsborough/Leppings Lane was I believe described in yesterdays report as a 'death trap' and 'a disaster waiting to happen'. What I am saying is without the pushing from people trying to get into the ground there would be no crush and I am sure that many fans on the day complained to the people behind to stop pushing.

I have watched football all over the world and football fans are incredibly single minded when entering a ground (to not miss any of the action) and on leaving the ground (not to miss last orders) and complaining about the pushing would just fall on deaf ears, that is the way it has always been and will always be, you know that when exiting Aldershots ground at a night game where you to navigate a winding slope in poor light, it's dangerous enough without a big crowd trying to get out.

I understand your anger, I am angry I hope that every right minded British citizen/football supporters are angry but you are turning that anger on the wrong people.

By the way I agree with you about terracing, but you haven't answered the question, who would get the blame for a tragedy caused by people standing in an all seater stadium? and more importantly how could anyone the police or stewards possibly enforce that ground regulation?, but i'm damn sure they would get the blame for not enforcing it.

Sorry but I'm not turning any anger on anyone on here? Ive just been putting my point of view over,that's what the forum is about isn't it.

I'm not qualified to answer questions about blame etc. hopefully that sort of thing won't ever happen again.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Sorry but I'm not turning any anger on anyone on here? Ive just been putting my point of view over,that's what the forum is about isn't it.

I'm not qualified to answer questions about blame etc. hopefully that sort of thing won't ever happen again.

You don't to be qualified, just an honest opinion.