Hillsborough

[Mr Mosquito]

Surely? They should and could have been uncovered in 1989?

But no,corruption and lies ruled at that time.

I think that Margaret Thatcher was putty in Police hands at that time. Margaret Thatcher remembered that it was the same corrupt Police that did her bidding by putting the boot into the striking miners during 1984/85. That's why I'm so surprised at a serving Tory PM - David Cameron - giving such a strong public announcement today against the corrupt Police involved with the Hillsborough cover up. Then again, David cameron is working to his own cost cutting agenda - he's looking to reduce Police numbers and costs and the Hillsborough cover up may be his excuse to do so.

[Manon]

Don't wish to come across insensitive, as there are clearly more important things in this world, such as the lives lost and the loved ones affected, but I wonder if these revelations will lend some weight to the safe standing movement which had been gaining momentum of late? This tragedy impacted upon all us football fans to a degree, and to some obviously much more so, but the taylor report was a knee jerk reaction. Hillsborough was also seized upon as an opportunity to change the landscape of the game - and quite successfully so, as the premier league is testament to. The prices

[Esmond Million's Bung]

That was true in 1980.

Funny you should say that, I watched a documentary recently where experts in dementia and alzheimer's examined Harold Wilson's speeches, interviews and commons statements and they believe that he was already in early stages of the disease in his last year as prime minister.

[Eco]

in virtually the first week in office Blair hosted what came to known as the cool Britannia party at no.10 inviting all sorts of 'young' well known people, in an attempt to be 'down wiv da kidz' and dear Old Noel was one of them, he has subsequently said he is embarrassed that he went.

I think you are either trying to defend or very naive, the 3 you mentioned and virtually all of the New Labour hierarchy are actually 'well in' mega rich credit card/champagne socialists.

I'm well aware of the cool Britannia charade, however I'm not sure why you mentioned it as it has no connection with big business. Not trying to defend Blair Brown & Mandy just trying to point out the difference between the two parties. Hopefully Ed M can get the soul back into Labour but I won't hold my breath. PS. What's wrong with socialists liking champers by the way ?

[sbred]

Don't wish to come across insensitive, as there are clearly more important things in this world, such as the lives lost and the loved ones affected, but I wonder if these revelations will lend some weight to the safe standing movement which had been gaining momentum of late? This tragedy impacted upon all us football fans to a degree, and to some obviously much more so, but the taylor report was a knee jerk reaction. Hillsborough was also seized upon as an opportunity to change the landscape of the game - and quite successfully so, as the premier league is testament to. The prices

Lord taylor said that standing wasn't unsafe, I dot know the exact qoute off the top of my head.

Officials just chose what parts of the report they wanted to accept.

Another part of the report was a maximum ticket price, funny how that was ignored too.

[Portland Bill]

I think that Margaret Thatcher was putty in Police hands at that time. Margaret Thatcher remembered that it was the same corrupt Police that did her bidding by putting the boot into the striking miners during 1984/85. That's why I'm so surprised at a serving Tory PM - David Cameron - giving such a strong public announcement today against the corrupt Police involved with the Hillsborough cover up. Then again, David cameron is working to his own cost cutting agenda - he's looking to reduce Police numbers and costs and the Hillsborough cover up may be his excuse to do so.

David Cameron really had no choice in saying what he had to say today.

All the evidence that came out is actually mind blowing. 164 statements falsified,3 police chiefs and forces( west midlands,South Yorkshire and Merseyside) found to be full of corruption.

The West midlands police were the force that originally did the inquiry into the South Yorkshire force, and they found nothing wrong, not ONE falsified statement ??????

Total corruption at the highest level.

This is just the start,a can of worms has only just had the can opener put on it.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I'm well aware of the cool Britannia charade, however I'm not sure why you mentioned it as it has no connection with big business. Not trying to defend Blair Brown & Mandy just trying to point out the difference between the two parties. Hopefully Ed M can get the soul back into Labour but I won't hold my breath. PS. What's wrong with socialists liking champers by the way ?

I know the difference believe me, one party are up front and will always look after their mates in big business and pretty much make no bones about it, the others are total hypocrites who take money from the unions and then do little or nothing to help them when they are in power, because they have now because of Blair become another party of the rich.

The point I was trying to make about cool Britannia was had it not been for that party, the revolving doors of rich people would have started earlier.

[TRL]

David Cameron really had no choice in saying what he had to say today.

All the evidence that came out is actually mind blowing. 164 statements falsified,3 police chiefs and forces( west midlands,South Yorkshire and Merseyside) found to be full of corruption.

The West midlands police were the force that originally did the inquiry into the South Yorkshire force, and they found nothing wrong, not ONE falsified statement ??????

Total corruption at the highest level.

This is just the start,a can of worms has only just had the can opener put on it.

This could unravel rapidly if other forces helped hide the truth.

Of course government has to be a little careful, I'm sure a few whistle blowers will appear. As someone said further up, a good chance for some police force streamlining, with some people going with nice pay offs to stay quiet, and try and keep past and present governments as clean as they can.

[Eco]

I know the difference believe me, one party are up front and will always look after their mates in big business and pretty much make no bones about it, the others are total hypocrites who take money from the unions and then do little or nothing to help them when they are in power, because they have now because of Blair become another party of the rich.

The point I was trying to make about cool Britannia was had it not been for that party, the revolving doors of rich people would have started earlier.

In that case I don't disagree with you at all !

[Portland Bill]

TRL and BFDave - you must both be thankful that you didn't make it inside the ground on that day. Just wondered what time you arrived outside and decided not to progress any further? There has been much talk of fans arriving "late" being part of the problem, but from what I've read, the problems outside were beginning by 2.30, which I wouldn't particularly class as late for a 3 p.m. kick off. Do these timings fit with what you saw?

You may find the second paragraph interesting in this report.

The Taylor Report

Standing terraces in England were phased out in 1989 after Lord Justice Taylor's report into the Hillsborough disaster. During an FA Cup semi-final match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield, ninety-six Liverpool fans were killed because of over-crowding.

However, unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans. This incident was solely down to congestion. Thousands of fans travelling to the game were late due to traffic on the roads and delays to the railway, however nobody at the ground thought it appropriate to delay the 3pm kick off time. As a result many fans hurriedly entered the ground at the same time to avoid missing any further action. Unfortunately no effort was made to relieve the overcrowding, such as opening large gates. No entrances were sealed off and none of the fans were redirected to safer areas. This along with the ineffectiveness and slowness of the police to react resulted in nearly 100 deaths.

Immediately after the Hillsborough Disaster, the Home Office set up an inquiry under Lord Justice Taylor. It's remit was: "To inquire into the events at Sheffield Wednesday Football ground on 15th April 1989 and to make recommendations about the needs of crowd control and safety at sports events". The inquiry, which was held in Sheffield, began on the15th May 1989 and lasted thirty-one days. 

The Taylor Report recommended that all top division stadiums in England and Scotland phase out their concrete terraces and become all-seater. The result of this report has seen millions of pounds spent by every top club in these countries on developing their grounds. While many fans have complained that the elimination of the standing terraces has ruined the atmosphere at matches, it seems clear that all-seater stadiums are far safer as it is easier to manage spectators if each ticket sold is for a specific seat. 

All-seater stadiums have resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence inside football grounds have become almost non-existent. In addition, arrests for football-related crimes have reduced dramatically since the late 1980's whilst attendances have risen steadily.

The Taylor report wasn't the only testimony to address spectator safety inside football grounds. That same year the government addressed the incidents of 1985 (The Heysel Disaster) and 1986 (The Bradford Fire) and introduced the Football Spectators Act. 

The main proposals of the Act, suggested the compulsory distribution of identity cards to every football fan attending league, cup and international matches played in England and Wales. Under this system it would be possible to identify any known football hooligans and prevent them from entering stadiums. This system was first experimented with throughout the sixties and seventies, with clubs using their own membership schemes.

Even before the Football Spectators act had been introduced, the Football Association had come to an agreement with the government to implement membership schemes at every club in the football league. This was down to the Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) vigorously supporting the use of identity cards and signalling it out as the most effective way of preventing football violence.

Despite the government endorsing the scheme, only thirteen of the ninety-two English league clubs implemented the use of identity cards by the initial deadline date. Indeed, it was not only clear that the football clubs did not support the scheme it was also clear that the police were not in favour of the system. A survey of police views on membership schemes revealed that a massive 40% did not favour them. 

In any event Lord Justice Taylor condemned the scheme himself, in his report after the Hillsborough disaster. This combined with the clubs and police reluctance to agree to the scheme meant that it was never fully implemented or made compulsory.

[Eco]

David Cameron really had no choice in saying what he had to say today.

All the evidence that came out is actually mind blowing. 164 statements falsified,3 police chiefs and forces( west midlands,South Yorkshire and Merseyside) found to be full of corruption.

The West midlands police were the force that originally did the inquiry into the South Yorkshire force, and they found nothing wrong, not ONE falsified statement ??????

Total corruption at the highest level.

This is just the start,a can of worms has only just had the can opener put on it.

I heard S Yorks ambulance service altered statements as well.

[sbred]

You may find the second paragraph interesting in this report.

The Taylor Report

Standing terraces in England were phased out in 1989 after Lord Justice Taylor's report into the Hillsborough disaster. During an FA Cup semi-final match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield, ninety-six Liverpool fans were killed because of over-crowding.

However, unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans. This incident was solely down to congestion. Thousands of fans travelling to the game were late due to traffic on the roads and delays to the railway, however nobody at the ground thought it appropriate to delay the 3pm kick off time. As a result many fans hurriedly entered the ground at the same time to avoid missing any further action. Unfortunately no effort was made to relieve the overcrowding, such as opening large gates. No entrances were sealed off and none of the fans were redirected to safer areas. This along with the ineffectiveness and slowness of the police to react resulted in nearly 100 deaths.

Immediately after the Hillsborough Disaster, the Home Office set up an inquiry under Lord Justice Taylor. It's remit was: "To inquire into the events at Sheffield Wednesday Football ground on 15th April 1989 and to make recommendations about the needs of crowd control and safety at sports events". The inquiry, which was held in Sheffield, began on the15th May 1989 and lasted thirty-one days. 

The Taylor Report recommended that all top division stadiums in England and Scotland phase out their concrete terraces and become all-seater. The result of this report has seen millions of pounds spent by every top club in these countries on developing their grounds. While many fans have complained that the elimination of the standing terraces has ruined the atmosphere at matches, it seems clear that all-seater stadiums are far safer as it is easier to manage spectators if each ticket sold is for a specific seat. 

All-seater stadiums have resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence inside football grounds have become almost non-existent. In addition, arrests for football-related crimes have reduced dramatically since the late 1980's whilst attendances have risen steadily.

The Taylor report wasn't the only testimony to address spectator safety inside football grounds. That same year the government addressed the incidents of 1985 (The Heysel Disaster) and 1986 (The Bradford Fire) and introduced the Football Spectators Act. 

The main proposals of the Act, suggested the compulsory distribution of identity cards to every football fan attending league, cup and international matches played in England and Wales. Under this system it would be possible to identify any known football hooligans and prevent them from entering stadiums. This system was first experimented with throughout the sixties and seventies, with clubs using their own membership schemes.

Even before the Football Spectators act had been introduced, the Football Association had come to an agreement with the government to implement membership schemes at every club in the football league. This was down to the Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) vigorously supporting the use of identity cards and signalling it out as the most effective way of preventing football violence.

Despite the government endorsing the scheme, only thirteen of the ninety-two English league clubs implemented the use of identity cards by the initial deadline date. Indeed, it was not only clear that the football clubs did not support the scheme it was also clear that the police were not in favour of the system. A survey of police views on membership schemes revealed that a massive 40% did not favour them. 

In any event Lord Justice Taylor condemned the scheme himself, in his report after the Hillsborough disaster. This combined with the clubs and police reluctance to agree to the scheme meant that it was never fully implemented or made compulsory.

That's rubbish that all seater stadiums are clearly safer.

Where is that from?

[TRL]

You may find the second paragraph interesting in this report.

The Taylor Report

Standing terraces in England were phased out in 1989 after Lord Justice Taylor's report into the Hillsborough disaster. During an FA Cup semi-final match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield, ninety-six Liverpool fans were killed because of over-crowding.

However, unlike the Heysel Stadium disaster of 1985 this tragedy didn't occur because of hooliganism, as there was no violence between the two sets of fans. This incident was solely down to congestion. Thousands of fans travelling to the game were late due to traffic on the roads and delays to the railway, however nobody at the ground thought it appropriate to delay the 3pm kick off time. As a result many fans hurriedly entered the ground at the same time to avoid missing any further action. Unfortunately no effort was made to relieve the overcrowding, such as opening large gates. No entrances were sealed off and none of the fans were redirected to safer areas. This along with the ineffectiveness and slowness of the police to react resulted in nearly 100 deaths.

Immediately after the Hillsborough Disaster, the Home Office set up an inquiry under Lord Justice Taylor. It's remit was: "To inquire into the events at Sheffield Wednesday Football ground on 15th April 1989 and to make recommendations about the needs of crowd control and safety at sports events". The inquiry, which was held in Sheffield, began on the15th May 1989 and lasted thirty-one days. 

The Taylor Report recommended that all top division stadiums in England and Scotland phase out their concrete terraces and become all-seater. The result of this report has seen millions of pounds spent by every top club in these countries on developing their grounds. While many fans have complained that the elimination of the standing terraces has ruined the atmosphere at matches, it seems clear that all-seater stadiums are far safer as it is easier to manage spectators if each ticket sold is for a specific seat. 

All-seater stadiums have resulted in cases of football hooliganism decreasing significantly, meaning that incidents of violence inside football grounds have become almost non-existent. In addition, arrests for football-related crimes have reduced dramatically since the late 1980's whilst attendances have risen steadily.

The Taylor report wasn't the only testimony to address spectator safety inside football grounds. That same year the government addressed the incidents of 1985 (The Heysel Disaster) and 1986 (The Bradford Fire) and introduced the Football Spectators Act. 

The main proposals of the Act, suggested the compulsory distribution of identity cards to every football fan attending league, cup and international matches played in England and Wales. Under this system it would be possible to identify any known football hooligans and prevent them from entering stadiums. This system was first experimented with throughout the sixties and seventies, with clubs using their own membership schemes.

Even before the Football Spectators act had been introduced, the Football Association had come to an agreement with the government to implement membership schemes at every club in the football league. This was down to the Prime Minister (Margaret Thatcher) vigorously supporting the use of identity cards and signalling it out as the most effective way of preventing football violence.

Despite the government endorsing the scheme, only thirteen of the ninety-two English league clubs implemented the use of identity cards by the initial deadline date. Indeed, it was not only clear that the football clubs did not support the scheme it was also clear that the police were not in favour of the system. A survey of police views on membership schemes revealed that a massive 40% did not favour them. 

In any event Lord Justice Taylor condemned the scheme himself, in his report after the Hillsborough disaster. This combined with the clubs and police reluctance to agree to the scheme meant that it was never fully implemented or made compulsory.

Indeed, like I said further up, I hoped they were going to put the ko back, I definitely didn't hear anyone announce ko being put back, when the push became to great, I got out.

Such a simple small announcement could have saved a lot of lives, and may have stopped unnecessary pushing from the back.... A real hindsight moment that is going to lay heavily on someone's shoulders.

[Manon]

Don't wish to come across insensitive, as there are clearly more important things in this world, such as the lives lost and the loved ones affected, but I wonder if these revelations will lend some weight to the safe standing movement which had been gaining momentum of late? This tragedy impacted upon all us football fans to a degree, and to some obviously much more so, but the taylor report was a knee jerk reaction. Hillsborough was also seized upon as an opportunity to change the landscape of the game - and quite successfully so, as the premier league is testament to; the prices and the family/more affluent feel - something that Thatcherite Britain craved at the time, to eradicate the hooligan culture. So there was more to the cover up than to protect the police, the system and the hierarchy - it went deeper than that... to the very fabric of cultural reform.

In short, I don't believe the authorities were all singing from the same odious hymn sheet and that they all got together and thrashed out inaccuracies and alibis. I believe the police covered their own arse s, and that thatcher didn't need much persuading since it fitted her ideology.

Edit: oh poo. Just realized just have accidentally posted mid-post..

[mcbcfc]

I heard S Yorks ambulance service altered statements as well.

Listening to 5 live this afternoon there appeared to be the consensus that lawyers working on behalf of senior police officers had changed reports. So the 160+ reports altered were most likely done by 2/3 lawyers

[Portland Bill]

That's rubbish that all seater stadiums are clearly safer.

Where is that from?

I agree with you, I don't think they are safer either. I came across it when doing a search,and thought the train and traffic delays making people late for the game we're relevent to this thread.

[Mr Mosquito]

David Cameron really had no choice in saying what he had to say today.

All the evidence that came out is actually mind blowing. 164 statements falsified,3 police chiefs and forces( west midlands,South Yorkshire and Merseyside) found to be full of corruption.

The West midlands police were the force that originally did the inquiry into the South Yorkshire force, and they found nothing wrong, not ONE falsified statement ??????

Total corruption at the highest level.

This is just the start,a can of worms has only just had the can opener put on it.

Like I wrote previously, this corruption will fit in very nicely with the current Tory administration's drive to cut public services and the costs of public services. A few hundred Police could be sacked over this with their pension rights withdrawn thus saving tens of £millions. Individual corrupt Police involved may also be faced with huge compensation claims via prosecutions brought privately.

[Portland Bill]

Indeed, like I said further up, I hoped they were going to put the ko back, I definitely didn't hear anyone announce ko being put back, when the push became to great, I got out.

Such a simple small announcement could have saved a lot of lives, and may have stopped unnecessary pushing from the back.... A real hindsight moment that is going to lay heavily on someone's shoulders.

Agree, but not surprising reflecting on the fact that Hillsborough didn't even have a safety certificate at the time.

Yesterday was the first time I had heard that fact,i found it unbelievable.

[Mr Mosquito]

Listening to 5 live this afternoon there appeared to be the consensus that lawyers working on behalf of senior police officers had changed reports. So the 160+ reports altered were most likely done by 2/3 lawyers

That'll be the Crown Prosecution Service lawyers covering for the corrupt Police - they really are a ripe target for sacking and imprisonment.

[TRL]

Agree, but not surprising reflecting on the fact that Hillsborough didn't even have a safety certificate at the time.

Yesterday was the first time I had heard that fact,i found it unbelievable.

Oh my, it gets worse. That is a shocker! That surely implicates the FA as well?

[sbred]

I agree with you, I don't think they are safer either. I came across it when doing a search,and thought the train and traffic delays making people late for the game we're relevent to this thread.

Yes. Sorry, it just annoys me when people say standing is unsafe.

How being cramped on a train stood up is classed as safe, but standing up at football is unsafe, doesn't make sense.

[sbred]

Oh my, it gets worse. That is a shocker! That surely implicates the FA as well?

Surely that's the fault of the council, not the fa?

[glynriley]

Oh my, it gets worse. That is a shocker! That surely implicates the FA as well?

Was about to post the same.How can they justify playing a semi final at a ground with no safety certificate ?

[TRL]

Surely that's the fault of the council, not the fa?

They choose the stadium, likewise, it implicates the council as well, as both must have talked.

[TRL]

Yes. Sorry, it just annoys me when people say standing is unsafe.

How being cramped on a train stood up is classed as safe, but standing up at football is unsafe, doesn't make sense.

Quite, in our health and safety gone mad world, it is deemed safe to stand on buses and trains, but you must wear seat belts sat down in coaches and cars. Delusional!

[Northern Red]

Not reading through 8 pages but I can see it's being discussed above, now that it's been decided the police were to blame, does that mean that we can stand up at the match again?

[Manon]

Yes. It was the old ticketing model which was unsafe, not the terrace itself.

If a terrace is all ticket, for a predetermined number of spaces, there is no difference.

No ticket, no entry, no over subscribed areas, no crush. If people know a game is all ticket then they won't bother to try and turn up and pay on the turnstile. They don't now, and they wouldn't for standing either.

[TRL]

Not reading through 8 pages but I can see it's being discussed above, now that it's been decided the police were to blame, does that mean that we can stand up at the match again?

Another interesting thought, what if the police think they are being picked on, and start to refuse policing football matches or put up the price massively to over compensate?

No idea if they can, just playing devils advocate.

[Mr Mosquito]

Not reading through 8 pages but I can see it's being discussed above, now that it's been decided the police were to blame, does that mean that we can stand up at the match again?

The whole thread is well worth reading, the best discussional thread that's been on this message board in a very long time.

[InCider]

Just a couple of points to make on today's papers ...

Firstly, I was glad that this has finally dispelled many of the myths surrounding the day (some of which have been mentioned on here in the past). Also, good to see that the cover-up has been recognised and good to hear an apology from the PM to the families who were effected. The actual scale of the cover up was astonishing and will always be a shameful episode in the UK's history. There were 2 tradgedies that day ... the disaster itself and the following misappropriation of blame and obstruction of justice. However, it is also good to know that the truth usually comes out in a democracy, albeit imperfectly and over a long period of time.

This is not the end by any means and as Trevor Hicks responded ...

"The truth is out today, justice starts tomorrow."

Shame on those who were inept, corrupt or colluded in surpressing the truth, whether SYP, the Sun, lawyers or government officials. Good luck to the families in their continual search for justice.