How Many More Stabbings Untill Uefa Act?

[Barrs Court Red]

I just don't accept that this sort of violence is a football problem. It's a violent scum problem, if there was no football they'd be stabbing folk at boxing matches or tiddly winks.

Find them, nick them, and lock them up for a long long time.

Your missing the point, the Italians need some extra motivation to sort this issue, and it is very much footballs problem!

[Tall King Blox]

I just don't accept that this sort of violence is a football problem. It's a violent scum problem, if there was no football they'd be stabbing folk at boxing matches or tiddly winks.

Find them, nick them, and lock them up for a long long time.

I just hope there aint a return match........every idiot and his dog will be out for pay back, that's when the banning will start...!

[bcfc-17]

Anyone seen the picture of the Tottenham fans head on twitter? Not sure if its real but its a pretty disturbing sight.

[mart]

And one of the guys who will decide the punishment is Platini. who has always been more Italian than French and played for Juve.

Obviously they will get the ban they deserve.. Not

. If an English team so much as threw a flare it would be banned for years.

Vive l'europe.

[Barrs Court Red]

Anyone seen the picture of the Tottenham fans head on twitter? Not sure if its real but its a pretty disturbing sight.

Yeah and is real.

You'd be amazed at some of the massive gash's I've seen abroad

[Aizoon]

Been pulling Yorkshire birds in Ibiza mate?

Yellow card

[old parkender]

News reports suggesting police have arrested known Roma ultras

[phantom]

It's also been said that there were foreign lads in with the Italians!

What you mean its not just Italians that follow Lazio

I know this is a serious subject and i am in no way belittling anything, but of all the pubs in Bristol to choose as an example in a thread about Rome......!!! I had to chuckle Mr P Bill!!

But PB is correct, that is the pub away fans get put in when they come by train to City

News reports suggesting police have arrested known Roma ultras

Obviously nothing to do with Lazio then . . . . . . Oh hang on

[chipdawg]

I hope you're not accusing the fine upstanding honest officials of UEFA of being biased against English clubs.

I don't possibly know how you could have taken that inference from my original comment. What I of course meant is that it was obviously the English fans fault for attempting to peacefully attend a football match in Rome. If English clubs were banned from Europe again, you wouldn't see this kind of thing...

[chipdawg]

What does it have to do with UEFA? Violent scum should be dealt with by the police and the courts.

I agree that the individuals involved should be processed through the courts, but these Ultras groups are entwined not just with the culture of the club but in the organisation of it too. Now I'm all for clubs engaging fans but if you're giving a group of fans who are known to be violent criminals a say in the running of your club then I think you have to expect penalties if they engage in football-related violence

[spudski]

This isn't about Football imho... it is purely an anti semetic problem.

This sums it up for me...

In Italy, Blitz Quotidiano reports:

'The fans of

Tottenham

Hotspur were attacked because their

team

represents the Jewish community in London. The raid in the pub “Drunken Ship” in Campo de ‘Fiori should not to be framed as a fight with footballing motivations (Lazio against Tottenham) or nationalists (Italians against ultras hooligan English), but as a racist anti-Jewish attack… The

team

nickname is “Spurs”. But the nickname of its fans (as in Italy using “hunchbacks” for Juventus) is” Yids “or “Jews”. Tottenham’s “kop” is proud of this nickname, and so it defines itself as a “Yid Army” or “Jewish Army”, which is also the name of the most important group of

Tottenham

hooligans. Often

supporters

in the stands wave banners with the Star of David and encourage their

players

calling them “Jews” or “yids”. This will explain why among the 30 Rome-based attackers were not only Lazio ultras but also AS Roma ultras, given the extent and diversity of anti-Jewish racism in the corners of Rome.'

People who travel to Europe will know there is a far greater right wing thinking in many countries. It seems far more exceptible. Italy has a massive following. The problem is social...it is not football. The dislike towards Jews and 'Gypsies' and other minority people is still prevalent amongst many people.... especially in Italy and many central / eastern european countries.

I'll give you an example which will shock many, of how day to day racisism is still practised in many places and will not go away, because it is ingrained from a young age.

This is what a lad i know, who's English , who lives in Slovakia said happened at his daughters school....

'Yesterday my little girl ****** comes home from school tells me its 'wash day' tomorrow for the Ciganis

I'm like 'what?'

Right Cigani are Slovak gypsies, they look like Pakistanis, but they live like rats tbh, worse.

Anyway theres about 30 at my kids school in *******. Its about 10% of the kids

Yesterday they had an assembly, whole school there, and the headteacher asked all the white kids to put up their hands if they thought the ciganis smelt bad

cause the entire white population put their hands up, cause tbh they do

These kids are 6-14 remember

so fk me they are making all the Cigani kids come to school today with towels so they can shower them, forcebly!!

Imagine this in Birmingham ffs!

unreal

only here, and it shows to me the countries lack of even awareness of political correctness or even manners

you wonder why footballers that are black in this part of Europe still get monkey chanted?

also to add 'Cigani' is the Slovak word for liar, that shows how bad racism is here'

I've seen and heard far worse. The worst was in Verona...an old age pensioner spitting on a Romanian woman and baby who were begging for money.

Racism and anti - semitism is rife in Europe and seems to be growing.

[glynriley]

Quite agree with the above. About time serious sanctions were taken against Lazio.

You know who's going to be crawling all over that remark , don't you RR ?!!?!

[buckinghamshirewolves]

• 1984: Liverpool fans stabbed by Roma supporters after European Cup Final
  
• 2001: Liverpool supporters stabbed in buttocks
  
• 2006: Middlesbrough fans attacked, again involving buttock slashing
  
• 2007: Manchester United fans face similar attacks on two separate occasions
  
• 2009: Man Utd fans attacked again by locals
  
• Nov 2012: Lazio fans attack Spurs supporters
  

Seems to be a regular thing for our supporters in Rome

And the Arsenal in 2009 - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7938851.stm

[spudski]

And your point is....?

[22A]

Sky News reported the incident occurred in the same bar that M'boro' fans were attacked in a few years ago. Why no Police presence then if the bar has a history of football related violence?

Some years back a Panorama programme looked at football hooliganism in Italy. At one of the Rome clubs the Ultras are led by a guy named as Ruffo. The Ultras have their own entrance in to the ground controlled by some of Ruffo's men and are therefore not subject to any weapons search! Do their gate receipts go to the club, or buying more booze & weapons or do they just let their mates in free?

Go back 40 years - imaging having "Blackjack" & his mates controlling their own entrance to the East End.

Ruffo told the camera crew how they had lost the local derby 5-0 at home. As a result the ultras went to the next training session and beat up their own players. Ruffo was completely unrepentent about this. "That attack should have been filmed and shown to all future signings. Then they'll know how important that game is to us".

Back to foreign policing; when Man U played at Barcelona, tsome home fans had a go at the Utd fans, so the local police weighed in.

By attacking the Utd fans. As one said afterwards, they knocked him out of his wheelchair as the police attacked all the utd fans. Presumably there is still the belief in Europe "If there is trouble - it is caused by the English". despite evidence to the contrary.

[Monkeh]

thing is we all know its the ultras doing this but UEFA can't really act as its not on the night of the game or near the ground you can only hope the police sort it,

[Craven arms]

The poor bloke didn't make it. RIP

You should be banned for making a statement like that

[spudski]

Sky News reported the incident occurred in the same bar that M'boro' fans were attacked in a few years ago. Why no Police presence then if the bar has a history of football related violence?

Some years back a Panorama programme looked at football hooliganism in Italy. At one of the Rome clubs the Ultras are led by a guy named as Ruffo. The Ultras have their own entrance in to the ground controlled by some of Ruffo's men and are therefore not subject to any weapons search! Do their gate receipts go to the club, or buying more booze & weapons or do they just let their mates in free?

Go back 40 years - imaging having "Blackjack" & his mates controlling their own entrance to the East End.

Ruffo told the camera crew how they had lost the local derby 5-0 at home. As a result the ultras went to the next training session and beat up their own players. Ruffo was completely unrepentent about this. "That attack should have been filmed and shown to all future signings. Then they'll know how important that game is to us".

Back to foreign policing; when Man U played at Barcelona, tsome home fans had a go at the Utd fans, so the local police weighed in.

By attacking the Utd fans. As one said afterwards, they knocked him out of his wheelchair as the police attacked all the utd fans. Presumably there is still the belief in Europe "If there is trouble - it is caused by the English". despite evidence to the contrary.

Like you say... that was some years back.

It's a lot different now.

Unfortunately.... we could be here all day discussing the rights and wrongs... However it is a culture thing.

You really have to live it or visit their regularly to understand.

The mentality is so different from ours...totally different. It's like we are Aliens. It really is difficult to understand a lot of their culture and mentality.

For example.... Cheating in Italy is not seen as 'poor show'. It is seen as been clever and pro active. If you are good at cheating it's almost seen as a badge of honour.

[22A]

Breaking news on Sky; two men arrested & charged with attempted murder following the incidient with the Spurs fan.

[buckinghamshirewolves]

You should be banned for making a statement like that

I would live to say Craven Arms - QUIT YOUR JIBBA JABBA but you have a very valid point!!!

Do you go to many games? What a journey that it from Craven Arms to Bristol.

[phantom]

Do you go to many games? What a journey that it from Craven Arms to Bristol.

Not relevant, but the original posting was certainly ill advised and not well thought out

[chipdawg]

Like you say... that was some years back.

It's a lot different now.

Unfortunately.... we could be here all day discussing the rights and wrongs... However it is a culture thing.

You really have to live it or visit their regularly to understand.

The mentality is so different from ours...totally different. It's like we are Aliens. It really is difficult to understand a lot of their culture and mentality.

For example.... Cheating in Italy is not seen as 'poor show'. It is seen as been clever and pro active. If you are good at cheating it's almost seen as a badge of honour.

It's not a 'culture thing'. I know several Italian blokes and neither have them ever revealed themselves to be violent anti-Semites. There are certain elements of the Italian supporter culture- enagagement with the club, the noise, etc- that I envy them for but the violent, racist tendencies of their Ultra groups is not one. There is no cultural excuse for that level of violence

[spudski]

It's not a 'culture thing'. I know several Italian blokes and neither have them ever revealed themselves to be violent anti-Semites. There are certain elements of the Italian supporter culture- enagagement with the club, the noise, etc- that I envy them for but the violent, racist tendencies of their Ultra groups is not one. There is no cultural excuse for that level of violence

You've obviously never lived in Italy then?

Of course everyone isn't anti- semite...what a daft thing to say.

You say their is no Cultural excuse for that level of violence.... what do you think half the wars and political arguements going on around the world are about.

Free Palestine banners were in the Curva Nord Thursday.

I've followed Lazio for years and lived in Italy.

Every grievance Political, Religious, local Community, Police,World issues, etc,etc is protested at the football stadiums on a weekend. That's how it works over their.

Unfortunately Extremistes attach themselves to Football Clubs in Italy and many East European Clubs.

There are fights and beatings at nearly every match in Italy... every week. As well as many other matches in Europe.

As for the two arrested for attempted murder...they are both Roma Fans. http://www.football-italia.net/27615/arrests-spurs-attack-are-roma-ultras

Nearly every Club in Italy has right wing following in some small form or other. Livorno are probably one of the exceptions.

[Monkeh]

well I heard they were neo nazi's and thats why they targeted the spurs fans,

[chipdawg]

You've obviously never lived in Italy then?

Of course everyone isn't anti- semite...what a daft thing to say.

You say their is no Cultural excuse for that level of violence.... what do you think half the wars and political arguements going on around the world are about.

Free Palestine banners were in the Curva Nord Thursday.

I've followed Lazio for years and lived in Italy.

Every grievance Political, Religious, local Community, Police,World issues, etc,etc is protested at the football stadiums on a weekend. That's how it works over their.

Unfortunately Extremistes attach themselves to Football Clubs in Italy and many East European Clubs.

There are fights and beatings at nearly every match in Italy... every week. As well as many other matches in Europe.

As for the two arrested for attempted murder...they are both Roma Fans. http://www.football-italia.net/27615/arrests-spurs-attack-are-roma-ultras

Nearly every Club in Italy has right wing following in some small form or other. Livorno are probably one of the exceptions.

But they weren't airing grievances in a football stadium were they? They were attacking a load of peaceable Spurs fans with knives and bats because, on the face of it, they were associated with a Jewish-supported football club

I'm not castigating the entirety of Italian football culture. As I said, there is much to admire and envy. But this is not one of those things and shouldn't be dismissed or excused as a culture we don't understand properly. I can't see how any cultural anomaly can excuse serious racially aggravated violence, regardless of whether I've lived in Italy or not

PS out of interest, why do Livorno specifically have no right wing elements? Are they associated with socialism or are they just a random anomaly

[Red-Robbo]

You've obviously never lived in Italy then?

Of course everyone isn't anti- semite...what a daft thing to say.

You say their is no Cultural excuse for that level of violence.... what do you think half the wars and political arguements going on around the world are about.

Free Palestine banners were in the Curva Nord Thursday.

I've followed Lazio for years and lived in Italy.

Every grievance Political, Religious, local Community, Police,World issues, etc,etc is protested at the football stadiums on a weekend. That's how it works over their.

Unfortunately Extremistes attach themselves to Football Clubs in Italy and many East European Clubs.

There are fights and beatings at nearly every match in Italy... every week. As well as many other matches in Europe.

As for the two arrested for attempted murder...they are both Roma Fans. http://www.football-...are-roma-ultras

Nearly every Club in Italy has right wing following in some small form or other. Livorno are probably one of the exceptions.

Very true, Spudski, but Lazio has them in a large form and are indeed the Millwall of Italy. Well, a more successful Millwall.

As I've mentioned before, I used to own a holiday place in Umbria and spent some time following the old AC Perugia side when they were in Serie B and then Serie A.

My fave bar in Perugia was actually a Lazio supporters hang-out and I got on fine with them, so I'm certainly not damning a club on the basis of its more nutty support. However, you do have to admit there is a problem in particular linked to Lazio.

[spudski]

Very true, Spudski, but Lazio has them in a large form and are indeed the Millwall of Italy. Well, a more successful Millwall.

As I've mentioned before, I used to own a holiday place in Umbria and spent some time following the old AC Perugia side when they were in Serie B and then Serie A.

My fave bar in Perugia was actually a Lazio supporters hang-out and I got on fine with them, so I'm certainly not damning a club on the basis of its more nutty support. However, you do have to admit there is a problem in particular linked to Lazio.

I'd say Brescia or Verona were the Millwall of Italy... Lazio are just more prominent, because they are more successfull, had Di Canio as a player and Mussolini as a fan.

If you know Umbria, then you will at least understand the difference...and culture.

Difficult to understand the beaurocracy and Politics of a country that has so many fine family values.

I can't see how any cultural anomaly can excuse serious racially aggravated violence, regardless of whether I've lived in Italy or not

PS out of interest, why do Livorno specifically have no right wing elements? Are they associated with socialism or are they just a random anomaly

As i said before... What are most wars fought over? Cultural anomaly... and racial difference. It does go down to local level as well.

Stick a level headed brit amongst a jew and arab and ask them to find peace...good luck on that. What we see, and what they see are totally different and you won't change it, however much you try.

Livorno are as Left wing as you can get... Communist.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

I disagree.

Football, for some reason, seems to whip people up into a frenzy like no other game. I've been to boxing matches, cricket matches, tennis matches, F1 etc. etc. all at the top level. Only boxing matches the noise and passion, without a couple of key elements; politics and religion (for the most part, at least).

It is a football related problem. It's not football's fault, nor UEFA's fault, but I think the powers that be are duty bound to do all they can. If that means Lazio have to play their European away matches in Siberia, then so be it!

Slightly disagree, the animosity in cricket is rarely reported but its definitely there. Ashes tour in Oz, the police had to get in between the Barmy Army and the locals as the banter turned quite nasty and ended up in some punch ups, plus many incidents in the past between India v Pakistan.. Although not in the same league as violence as we see in football, it is there.

[chipdawg]

I'd say Brescia or Verona were the Millwall of Italy... Lazio are just more prominent, because they are more successfull, had Di Canio as a player and Mussolini as a fan.

If you know Umbria, then you will at least understand the difference...and culture.

Difficult to understand the beaurocracy and Politics of a country that has so many fine family values.

As i said before... What are most wars fought over? Cultural anomaly... and racial difference. It does go down to local level as well.

Stick a level headed brit amongst a jew and arab and ask them to find peace...good luck on that. What we see, and what they see are totally different and you won't change it, however much you try.

Livorno are as Left wing as you can get... Communist.

But that doesn't excuse it, just highlights the fact that there are other ***** in other countries

Is there an Italian team who're slightly to the right of Livorno? I feel the need to adopt a vaguely socialist Italian football team

[spudski]

But that doesn't excuse it, just highlights the fact that there are other ***** in other countries

Is there an Italian team who're slightly to the right of Livorno? I feel the need to adopt a vaguely socialist Italian football team

You'll struggle to find one....

Venezia are probably the nearest. But they are crap. Nice little ground though.

In many ways Italy and Italian Culture is hard to understand for us Brits. Since the 30's the whole Country has been in a mixed up pickle.

If anyone is really interested in understanding it, then give this book a read....

Also a quote about what the author thinks....

Calcio: A History of Italian Football

Italy emerged as a footballing power in the 1930s. How important was football to Benito Mussolini’s fascist regime? Was it associated with opposition to fascism?

Football was very important for fascism. Mussolini helped make the sport into a mass pastime, organised rallies around games and added fascist symbols.

This was particularly true with the World Cups of 1934 and 1938 and the Olympic tournament in Berlin in 1936, all of which Italy won. Radio was the main means by which people followed the game and the commentaries were extremely nationalistic, as were the reports in the press.

The Battle of Highbury match with England in 1934 was presented as a kind of war, and defeat was turned into victory. The 1938 World Cup in France saw anti-fascist protests at Italian games.

However, football also presented fascism with problems. Localism contrasted with fascism’s nationalist ideology—being a fan of a club side was at odds with the whole idea of fascism.

Football itself was in some ways anti-fascist in a weak sense, perhaps. Many footballers were fascists, but others became part of the resistance.

The big teams in the 1930s were associated in some ways with the regime. Juventus, which won five titles in a row, were the car company Fiat’s team, and Bologna had a strong link to the fascist leadership in that town.

Many fans believe Juventus and the Milan clubs exercise too much control over football. How true is that?

Big business and football have always been closely linked in Italy—Pirelli, and then businessman and prime minister Silvio Berlusconi with AC Milan, Fiat with Juventus, oil interests with Inter. These three teams have carved up tournaments among themselves since the 1950s.

Money talks in football and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence of what is known as the “psychological conditioning” of referees—in particular by Juventus.

The relationship between Italians and referees mirrors that between Italians and the state—a relationship built on suspicion, hatred and mistrust.

Today, with the vast sums spent on TV coverage, the big clubs have an even greater control over the game. Nobody else can really win. This dominance has only ever been challenged on a few occasions—by Bologna in the 1920s and 1930s, Torino in the 1940s and the Rome clubs in the 1990s.

Italian football is often associated with a cautious approach, which means teams are happy to try and sit on a one goal lead. Is this stereotype still true?

Catenaccio, as defensive football was known, was not invented in Italy, but it flourished there in the 1950s and 1960s. The basic premise was to concentrate on not conceding goals, and to play a counter-attacking game.

However, it is also part of a stereotype which derives from the lack of “fair play” in the Italian game—the win at all costs attitude which is still a part of the game. Catenaccio could be boring, but it also implied more skilful defending and beautiful, swift breaks from defence.

Italian football became more attacking in the 1990s with the pressing game invented by AC Milan and Arrigo Sacchi. It should also be said that Italians were often simply better at defending than other countries, and have produced some extraordinary players at the back.

In Britain it is rare for football fans to get involved in politics. But in Italy football fans have joined demonstrations. There’s been the emergence of Livorno as a left wing club. How serious is politics among the supporters?

Politics is very serious, and it touches all parts of life. However, most of the hardcore fans are now on the right or the extreme right of the political spectrum.

Extremist groups like Forza Nuova have found fertile recruiting grounds among the fanatical Ultra fans.

This has led to a lot of racism and open fascism at football grounds, with anti-Semitic banners, insults directed at black players and swastikas.

Some of the left wing strongholds, such as Torino and Roma, have been taken over by the right in recent years. Little has been done about the racism.

On the left, Livorno are interesting, although their Stalinism is quite hard to take and they are often simply provocative.

Venice fans also led an anti-racist campaign and put up anti-war banners. The link between politics and sport in Italy has always been very strong.

How does the economy of football work?

In recent years the finances of football have been a grotesque parody of the Italian financial system. Clubs have gone bankrupt and been “saved” by financial accounting. New laws have been passed to allow clubs to survive despite falsifying their accounts.

Scandals in football mirror those in Italian society, with corruption rife.

People are extraordinarily interested in the game, and in some ways it has replaced politics and religious belief as the main thing in people’s lives. The media deals in football almost continuously.

Violence, fraud, scandal and intrigue were endemic. The system had collapsed, yet the show went on. Teams continued to play on despite bankruptcy, doping, arrests, investigations.

All this was surreal and disturbing, but perhaps not all that surprising. After all, the president of the Football Federation was also a key figure in the running of AC Milan, whose president is the prime minister of Italy.

In a country where rules and laws are not only broken with impunity, but where those who do so are rewarded for their pains, it is unlikely that the most popular and the most wealthy sport would be a “happy island” of legality, peace and tranquillity.

Sometimes, during the work on this book, I felt like Malcolm McDowell in The Clockwork Orange. I was forced to watch things which have made me sick. I did not think it would be possible but, by the end, I had almost fallen out of love with football.