chipdawg Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Morning all- back from holiday and suitably refreshed! It may surprise some of you I've 'sparred' with before to know that I agree that Halal or Kosher meat should be banned in this country. I feel that concern for animal welfare is a cultural aspect of this country that shouldn't be mortgaged against religious freedom. We have some of the highest standards of animal welfare in the world and I feel that's something to be proud of, not something to be relaxed for the benefit of a sizeable minority. However, I doubt there is one person on this thread who can justifiably call for it to be banned on the ground of animal health. Do you check the origins of the meat in your Friday night curry? Or your Saturday night kebab? When you order the meatballs on holiday in Tenerife, do you make sure that standards equivalent to our own are upheld before you tuck in? Of course you don't. I don't and it rarely occurs to me. So we shouldn't pretend this is entirely about animal welfare unless we're certain that we're all well clear of that glass house and I don't think a single one of us is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Hey Chip - nice holiday I hope? TBh, I check all meat labels. If I choose to eat a curry and Pork is not offered, I assume rightly or wrongly halal meat is served and eat elsewhere. Only meat mind - Halal (permitted) can be applied to even a can of coke. So no, buying a Turkish bread doesn't bother me. I know of other people who also refuse to eat Halal or Kosher meat. Excellent thanks, so so happy to be back in good old Blighty... That isn't really what I was saying, though perhaps my examples weren't the best in relation halal! I was saying that while we may wish to prohibit the widespread use of halal meat (or Kosher for that matter) on the grounds of animal cruelty, we need to first be damn sure that no animals are being mistreated in any way in the good we already eat. Obviously in some respect we can have faith in the regulatory regime of our country, but it's impossible to check where every piece of chicken or beef that passes your lips has been. The pork in your curry might not actually have been treated that well and you have no way of knowing other than to place faith in the regulator and faith in the proprietor of the restaurant. I was merely making that point that very few on here (myself very much included) will check the origin of the meat and the welfare standards of that origin before consuming. It's a little easier to do in the supermarket and it's something I'm more and more aware of, but unless you're vegan you just can't be sure. The point I'm trying to make is that halal or kosher slaughter is not the only way of being cruel to animals. Them being raised in France is the most obvious one that springs to mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Morning all- back from holiday and suitably refreshed! It may surprise some of you I've 'sparred' with before to know that I agree that Halal or Kosher meat should be banned in this country. I feel that concern for animal welfare is a cultural aspect of this country that shouldn't be mortgaged against religious freedom. We have some of the highest standards of animal welfare in the world and I feel that's something to be proud of, not something to be relaxed for the benefit of a sizeable minority. However, I doubt there is one person on this thread who can justifiably call for it to be banned on the ground of animal health. Do you check the origins of the meat in your Friday night curry? Or your Saturday night kebab? When you order the meatballs on holiday in Tenerife, do you make sure that standards equivalent to our own are upheld before you tuck in? Of course you don't. I don't and it rarely occurs to me. So we shouldn't pretend this is entirely about animal welfare unless we're certain that we're all well clear of that glass house and I don't think a single one of us is My point is this, the world moves on it modernises, less than 100 years ago women in the UK didn't have a vote, just over 60 years ago being homosexual was illegal now we have gay marriage. So why is it, it is always religion that is reluctant or finds it impossible to move with the times?, surely if religion wants to survive and play a meaningful part in society it should be at the forefront of change?. The days of religion using firestone and brimstone tactics to keep it's converts in line should be long gone as should some it's more barbaric practices. The problem is for me a simple one, far too many religions including the 2 most organised religions in the UK are allowed to promote and preach anti female and anti gay views, views that would not even be audibly tolerated at a football stadium. The world needs to move on and religions should be at it's forefront. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 You can hardly say 10% is a small number when it could account for millions. Could but does not. Do you eat New Zealand lamb BTW, its halal and always has been, they can export to more places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 For the record I don't agree with non-stunned halal slaughtering of animals. It makes no religious difference, the religious context is around not eating an animal that's already dead, before its blessed. I'm just making the point that the vast majority are killed the same as any other meat. And ultimately all meat it inhumain so don't if you eat meat worry about the last few seconds of an animals life worry about the 2 years before that point which is generally quite shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tins Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Again you just have no idea how much utter drivel you are spouting. Go away and learn the difference between a Muslim and an Islamist and all the threads will make so much more sense! Just as I can differentiate between a soldier and two complete nutjobs. See - not too hard. The problem is that a lot of people tarnish Muslims, and Islamists with the same brush. I am not religious myself, and do believe that most religions need updating to bring it in times with the modern day. I am just not anti-religious because if it brings someone peace and happiness then that is fine with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 The problem is that a lot of people tarnish Muslims, and Islamists with the same brush. I am not religious myself, and do believe that most religions need updating to bring it in times with the modern day. I am just not anti-religious because if it brings someone peace and happiness then that is fine with me. and I hold the same views, but slitting an animals throat, for anything other than quickly release the animal from pain (when no other method is readily available) has no place in the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tins Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 and I hold the same views, but slitting an animals throat, for anything other than quickly release the animal from pain (when no other method is readily available) has no place in the 21st century. Agree. But banning someone on religious bases rather than ethical reasons is what I have the problem with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 and I hold the same views, but slitting an animals throat, for anything other than quickly release the animal from pain (when no other method is readily available) has no place in the 21st century. I think you're right, however the whole animal welfare system as far as food is concerned needs overhaul. The whole horse meat thing kinda puts to bed the notion we have any idea how or where our meat comes from. Farm shops excused, but they are out of the price range of most average joes. I find the notion that focusing on the last few seconds of a animals life kinda excuses the crap way in which we treat them in the years up to their conversion into a meat tray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Agree. But banning someone on religious bases rather than ethical reasons is what I have the problem with. I think I agree with you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Could but does not. Do you eat New Zealand lamb BTW, its halal and always has been, they can export to more places. No actually because the missus and her mum always complain it tastes awful, guess we know why now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 No actually because the missus and her mum always complain it tastes awful, guess we know why now... Looooool why would it taste any differently because of a prayer. More likely to be food its eaten and distance traveled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 And Kosher. There isn't much different between Islamic and Jewish barbarism when it comes to slaughter. The term Halal really though applies to the blessing. You can have Halal Coca-Cola FFS. The animals need to be stunned - simple as. Another fact that is often overlooked is that as the animals destined to become Halal meat must be blessed by an Imam, it actually pretty much prevents non-muslims from working in the slaughter-house. Except for the Pork ones. Some stupid people do think there is such a thing as haram coke because it contains a very very small amount of alcohol. These people are a very small and odd bunch because they are on the one hand ignoring why alcohol is haram because of intoxication, I have never known anyone too get drunk on coke unless it had a mixer in it. So in short halal coke has nothing to do with a blessing its not got any alcohol in not even 0.00001% or what's in normal coke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Now I can't claim to have ever had my throat slit, but I understand that it lakes less than a second to become unconscious Correct I have no idea why people care more about the last few seconds of an animals life than the 2 years before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Agree. But banning someone on religious bases rather than ethical reasons is what I have the problem with. I don't see anyone wanting to ban for religious reasons, what I see is people twisting it into being anti islamic or anti jewish when it's not, it's barbaric full stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think you're right, however the whole animal welfare system as far as food is concerned needs overhaul. The whole horse meat thing kinda puts to bed the notion we have any idea how or where our meat comes from. Farm shops excused, but they are out of the price range of most average joes.I find the notion that focusing on the last few seconds of a animals life kinda excuses the crap way in which we treat them in the years up to their conversion into a meat tray. Then perhaps islam and judaism, should show the world the way forward, wouldn't that be novel? and it would also show what religion should be and not what it has become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 http://youtu.be/nhjvoJatKOY When you need to backup an argument with this guy, you have already lost it. The guys comments are the most inacurate load of tosh I have ever listened to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Looooool why would it taste any differently because of a prayer. More likely to be food its eaten and distance traveled. Stress during slaughter causes meat to taste bad, due to the effect it has on the hormones in the blood running through the muscle. IF its done with no stunning involved, I'd say thats pretty stressful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pickle Rick Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Stress during slaughter causes meat to taste bad, due to the effect it has on the hormones in the blood running through the muscle. IF its done with no stunning involved, I'd say thats pretty stressful... Not anywhere near as tense/stressful if you slash the jugular compared to stunning. Stunning an animal isn't natural and affects the quality of the meat indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Stress during slaughter causes meat to taste bad, due to the effect it has on the hormones in the blood running through the muscle. IF its done with no stunning involved, I'd say thats pretty stressful... New Zealand lamb is stunned, try again. Plus I'd say no animal is stress free before they get to slaughter, so the notion you think there's some difference is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01314.pdf Read it, its simple if our political elite could organised a pissup in a brewery we would have the same law as New Zealand or Denmark Islam is not offended, nick clegg is offended for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Alcohol? What are you on about? Some people get their coke blessed so it is halal. When did alcohol come into it?Wrong you know halal just means allowed or permissible in Arabic right. There is nothing more or less halal about coke with or without a prayer, BTW Muslims don't get things blessed, all Muslims are equal so no imam or other Muslim can bless something more so than yourself. Some fools think there is alcohol in coke that makes it forbidden. Most Muslims say bismillah before eating or drinking things, I expect some non Muslim expert thinks that makes things halal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Correct I have no idea why people care more about the last few seconds of an animals life than the 2 years before that. Well, it wouldn't matter if you stunned the animal then would it? Your religion is barbaric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 New Zealand lamb is stunned, try again. Plus I'd say no animal is stress free before they get to slaughter, so the notion you think there's some difference is beyond me. Well perhaps you contact some of the top chefs in the world are argue that notion with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Well, it wouldn't matter if you stunned the animal then would it? Your religion is barbaric. You're a bit thick I so I'll write it nice and slow for you. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 80-90% OF HALAL MEAT AND THE MEAT YOU EAT THAT IS NON HALAL ITS ALL KILED THE SAME WAY! THE REST UNSTUNNED I DONT AGREE WITH.... HOWS THAT? SLOW ENOUGH FOR YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 What you don't even eat pork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 What you don't even eat pork? No, and that was before I was an Evil Muslim Convert muhahahahahahahahhaa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy31 Posted March 10, 2014 Report Share Posted March 10, 2014 How many more times. A religion is not a race. Technically you might be right, but you are guilty of sophistry in using that as a justification of your statements. I'd like to quote Nesrine Malik's response to Richard Dawkins, as my response to you: "Racism is behaviour, not an informed academic position. I doubt that anyone abusing Muslims in the street, or defacing a mosque, or snatching a veil off a woman's face, has paused to examine their premise beforehand. The argument that Islam is not a race is a cop out. It's time that we dispensed with it once and for all, because it prevents us from identifying acts motivated by hatred for what they really are. Islam might not be a race, but using that as a fig leaf for your unthinking prejudice is almost certainly racist." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted March 11, 2014 Report Share Posted March 11, 2014 Technically you might be right, but you are guilty of sophistry in using that as a justification of your statements. I'd like to quote Nesrine Malik's response to Richard Dawkins, as my response to you: "Racism is behaviour, not an informed academic position. I doubt that anyone abusing Muslims in the street, or defacing a mosque, or snatching a veil off a woman's face, has paused to examine their premise beforehand. The argument that Islam is not a race is a cop out. It's time that we dispensed with it once and for all, because it prevents us from identifying acts motivated by hatred for what they really are. Islam might not be a race, but using that as a fig leaf for your unthinking prejudice is almost certainly racist." Fancy that - Muslims playing the race card to deflect criticism away from their obnoxious practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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