Halal Meat

[Davros]

Anyone notice that there are quite a few people questioning Islamism and their defenders so far are a Dhimmi and a confirmed anti-UKIP poster.

I'm not going to speak for anyone but here is what I believe:

No more killing of animals in the name of religion without reducing their suffering. If you can't stun - ban it, and the islamists and Kosherites can just do one.

That's it.

Simple.

80-90% of halal meat is stunned, the other 10-20% I don't agree with.

[BigTone]

Perhaps we need to understand the definitions of Halal & Haram:

Halal is an Arabic word meaning "lawful" or "permitted"

?ar?m is an Arabic term meaning sinful.

[BigTone]

Most Muslims say bismillah before eating or drinking things, I expect some non Muslim expert thinks that makes things halal.

Bismillah is a blessing that they use before eating, drinking & many other actions. With regards eating it is no different to Christians saying Grace.

For the record I prefer Halal meat.

[The Gasbuster]

Technically you might be right, but you are guilty of sophistry in using that as a justification of your statements.

 

I'd like to quote Nesrine Malik's response to Richard Dawkins, as my response to you:

 

"Racism is behaviour, not an informed academic position. I doubt that anyone abusing Muslims in the street, or defacing a mosque, or snatching a veil off a woman's face, has paused to examine their premise beforehand. The argument that Islam is not a race is a cop out. It's time that we dispensed with it once and for all, because it prevents us from identifying acts motivated by hatred for what they really are. Islam might not be a race, but using that as a fig leaf for your unthinking prejudice is almost certainly racist."

 

What, Islam ?

O.K. then.

 

Once Choudary and his disciples stop spouting hate, then you may have an argument.

[chipdawg]

Not in the UK.

That's the whole point.

As well you know, you scamp.

Perhaps either you or Davros could provide an internet link to a reputable news or information resource to back up what you're saying as I just don't know what to believe!!!

[chipdawg]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-25036323

Best I can do Chip - all muslim owned/controlled Halal slaughter-houses do NOT stun.

Other non-muslim houses stun, and the meat is blessed afterwards.

To most ISLAMISTS, this meat (the majority) is Haram.

So basically 90% of halal meat is from non-muslim controlled/owned slaughter houses. The meat is stunned. To Islamists and some muslims, this meat is haram.

10% of halal meat is from muslim owned/controlled slaughterhouses. None of it is stunned.

I'm not sure that makes it clearer - but it is what it is.

The problem is no-one knows who is who, and the only way to stop confusion is to 100% stun all halal meat or cease selling it.

There lies the crux.

So Davros is entirely correct then? As I've said before, I don't agree with the exemption for that 10% on religious grounds (and there is presumably a further percentage for Kosher slaughter?) but I think its possible to overstate the issue. As I said before, until I start finding out how all the meat I eat lived and died, I will be disagreeing with 'traditional' halal slaughter but I won't be lecturing anyone about it

[BigTone]

So Tone - you are a muslim?

No other reason to 'prefer it'

I work a lot in Morocco and spend a lot of time with Muslims. I eat their food and enjoy it. As for Halal meat I find it to be more tender. Just my preference the same as some people like a rare steak and some well done.

I have spent a lot of time studying Islam as a means of understanding them, their traditions and practises. As I've said

100 times before why can't we just live and let live and respect the beliefs of others.

[phantom]

So, is there actually difference in the taste?

[BigTone]

80-90% of halal meat is stunned, the other 10-20% I don't agree with.

If the animal is stunned then the meat is not Halal

Dhab??ah (?????????) is the prescribed method of slaughtering all meat sources, excluding fish and other sea-life, per Islamic law. This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well-sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, windpipe, and jugular veins to cause the least amount of suffering to the animal. The head of an animal that is slaughtered using halal methods is aligned with the qiblah. In addition to the direction, permitted animals should be slaughtered upon utterance of the Islamic prayer "in the name of God."

HOWEVER

If there is absolutely no other halal food available and the Muslim is forced by necessity, then a Muslim is allowed to eat non-halal food

[Davros]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-25036323

Best I can do Chip - all muslim owned/controlled Halal slaughter-houses do NOT stun.

Other non-muslim houses stun, and the meat is blessed afterwards.

To most ISLAMISTS, this meat (the majority) is Haram.

So basically 90% of halal meat is from non-muslim controlled/owned slaughter houses. The meat is stunned. To Islamists and some muslims, this meat is haram.

10% of halal meat is from muslim owned/controlled slaughterhouses. None of it is stunned.

I'm not sure that makes it clearer - but it is what it is.

The problem is no-one knows who is who, and the only way to stop confusion is to 100% stun all halal meat or cease selling it.

There lies the crux.

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01314.pdf

Most Muslims I know will eat anything that's halal, a few of my friends won't eat certain certification because its kosher as well.

Ironically most muslims are happy to eat stunned meat, because the wording around it is not to eat dead things like carrion etc. So if its already dead it can't be blessed, but some parts of Islam discriminate between conscious and dead, very trivial IMO.

If we legislated to ban non stunning then a few people would moan for a few months and that would be the end of the debate.

Kosher is a different debate as they can't stun at all.

That PDF is worth a read its got the numbers in as well.

[BigTone]

So, is there actually difference in the taste?

No, not really. In my mind if there is a difference in taste then it is down to what the animal has been feeding on in it's lifetime not to the way it was killed.

[Davros]

I work a lot in Morocco and spend a lot of time with Muslims. I eat their food and enjoy it. As for Halal meat I find it to be more tender. Just my preference the same as some people like a rare steak and some well done.

I have spent a lot of time studying Islam as a means of understanding them, their traditions and practises. As I've said

100 times before why can't we just live and let live and respect the beliefs of others.

You probably find it more tender because most of of their cuisine is stewed. ;-)

[Davros]

If the animal is stunned then the meat is not Halal

Dhab??ah (?????????) is the prescribed method of slaughtering all meat sources, excluding fish and other sea-life, per Islamic law. This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well-sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, windpipe, and jugular veins to cause the least amount of suffering to the animal. The head of an animal that is slaughtered using halal methods is aligned with the qiblah. In addition to the direction, permitted animals should be slaughtered upon utterance of the Islamic prayer "in the name of God."

HOWEVER

If there is absolutely no other halal food available and the Muslim is forced by necessity, then a Muslim is allowed to eat non-halal food

But there are a lot of Muslims who believe its OK for it to be stunned.

[Davros]

Read this

www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn01314.pdf

[BigTone]

You probably find it more tender because most of of their cuisine is stewed. ;-)

Ha ha, good point but in my defence I rarely get a prime piece of rump steak and stew it.

[MarcusX]

I tend to avoid Halal meat because I don't think it should be forced upon me. I should have a choice.

 

If I go to a take away place, or I notice Subway do it a lot now, and it clearly says the meat is halal I will refuse to eat there.

 

I see that link to the school now removing pork and ham from school menus and think its a disgrace. Why should 80% of the school be affected because of the minority? Surely the muslim 20% could just not eat the pork and ham, and just get on with it, or as it seems to be the case, introduce two menus - one halal and one non-halal.

 

Also bare in mind that halal butchers must be muslim. If you had any other shop or business that only employed someone based on their religion there would be uproar.

[BigTone]

But there are a lot of Muslims who believe its OK for it to be stunned.

Maybe so, but it is my understanding that it would not strictly be Halal

[BigTone]

I see that link to the school now removing pork and ham from school menus and think its a disgrace. Why should 80% of the school be affected because of the minority? Surely the muslim 20% could just not eat the pork and ham, and just get on with it, or as it seems to be the case, introduce two menus - one halal and one non-halal.

My take on this is that the School are just being lazy and taking the easy option.

For any sane thinking person then 2 menus would be the most logical solution.

[Davros]

I tend to avoid Halal meat because I don't think it should be forced upon me. I should have a choice.

If I go to a take away place, or I notice Subway do it a lot now, and it clearly says the meat is halal I will refuse to eat there.

I see that link to the school now removing pork and ham from school menus and think its a disgrace. Why should 80% of the school be affected because of the minority? Surely the muslim 20% could just not eat the pork and ham, and just get on with it, or as it seems to be the case, introduce two menus - one halal and one non-halal.

Also bare in mind that halal butchers must be muslim. If you had any other shop or business that only employed someone based on their religion there would be uproar.

I don't understand that position. If your Christian I can but otherwise there is no difference at all, apart from a prayer to as god you don't believe in.

[Davros]

My take on this is that the School are just being lazy and taking the easy option.

For any sane thinking person then 2 menus would be the most logical solution.

This would be sensible indeed but non Muslims tend to cause the most offence.

[BigTone]

This would be sensible indeed but non Muslims tend to cause the most offence.

Agreed but it's all a bit daft really in my mind.

[Gazred]

Perhaps a solution.....

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-26020090

 

Totally independent organic/halal farming and slaughter. Interesting to read that the 5% Muslim population consume over 20% of all red meat produced in the UK.

 

At 5% of the population, there would surely not be enough demand to have Halal food available in high streets everywhere, but consider the fact Muslims consume nearly a quarter of all red meat produced and any business would be foolish to ignore that share of the market. This is why we are seeing more Halal options in everyday places.

[BigTone]

Halal is in.

Pork is out.

As I said I prefer Halal meat but in saying that I also enjoy a bacon sarnie and a nice pork roast.

Bugger, I'm getting hungry again

[MarcusX]

I don't understand that position. If your Christian I can but otherwise there is no difference at all, apart from a prayer to as god you don't believe in.

 

I was born and raised a Christian, though I am not exactly devout. The Christian stance tends to be, if you are aware that it is halal it should be avoided.

 

My issue is that it shouldn't be forced upon me. I don't believe that halal slaughter is as humane if not stunned, and it doesn't appear possible to tell for sure with halal meat.

 

Independent take away places is one thing, but when I walk into a Subway and see they ONLY offer halal meat that is disappointing. The bigger companies should be offering a choice, BOTH ways.

 

People should remember this isn't a muslim country - so whilst we can make the effort to accommodate for others, it shouldn't be a take over. Same with these Sharia Law courts popping up.

[MarcusX]

As I said I prefer Halal meat but in saying that I also enjoy a bacon sarnie and a nice pork roast.

Bugger, I'm getting hungry again

 

Whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, I am intrigued as to how or why you would PREFER halal if you are not muslim? It would be almost impossible to notice the difference in taste.

[BigTone]

Whilst everyone is entitled to their opinion, I am intrigued as to how or why you would PREFER halal if you are not muslim? It would be almost impossible to notice the difference in taste.

Yes, but if you read my posts I actually said I find it more tender. When asked about difference in taste I said I didn't think there was.

I'm off to the shop now to buy a nice pork pie for lunch

[chipdawg]

I didn't think so - I thought the blessing upon death was essential, and like a fool I read a BBC article.

Tone has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

If it's stunned - it can't be halal.

This comes back to something I've brought up before- there are different interpretations of Islam (as there are of Christianity) and you can't apply the definitive a of one to another. In addition, this also demonstrates quite nicely how British Islam is adapting to British culture. I don't think the BBC article is inaccurate and neither is Big Tone, it's just different angles on different things. Strictly speaking the animal may well have to be conscious for the food to be halal, but large quantities of meat are being sold as halal in knowledge of the Muslim community and everyone seems ok with that. So really, from an animal welfare point of view (which of course is the central point of this thread) there isn't a problem with the majority of halal meat sold in the UK and the issue of whether it's technically halal or not isn't really mine or your problem

[Esmond Million's Bung]

This comes back to something I've brought up before- there are different interpretations of Islam (as there are of Christianity) and you can't apply the definitive a of one to another. In addition, this also demonstrates quite nicely how British Islam is adapting to British culture. I don't think the BBC article is inaccurate and neither is Big Tone, it's just different angles on different things. Strictly speaking the animal may well have to be conscious for the food to be halal, but large quantities of meat are being sold as halal in knowledge of the Muslim community and everyone seems ok with that. So really, from an animal welfare point of view (which of course is the central point of this thread) there isn't a problem with the majority of halal meat sold in the UK and the issue of whether it's technically halal or not isn't really mine or your problem

 

You make a good point, the difference is that in most of the civilised world slitting an animals throat stopped as an acceptable way dispatching of an animal a long time ago.

 

Every religion has it's 'bible' and within them is a lot of totally unacceptable messages, regarding violence including sexual violence and violence towards women and gay people, slavery being acceptable and of course the ambiguous stuff that some use as justification for vile acts of cowardice (mind you, usually pushed on to gullible converts).

 

I repeat society changes but religion is very slow to change, in the UK the 2 major religions like to make controversial political statements about welfare but both are openly anti gay and anti female, you couldn't make that up in the 21st century and is a major reason why until religions get there own houses in order, they should keep away from politics IMO.

 

 

[Davros]

I was born and raised a Christian, though I am not exactly devout. The Christian stance tends to be, if you are aware that it is halal it should be avoided.

My issue is that it shouldn't be forced upon me. I don't believe that halal slaughter is as humane if not stunned, and it doesn't appear possible to tell for sure with halal meat.

Independent take away places is one thing, but when I walk into a Subway and see they ONLY offer halal meat that is disappointing. The bigger companies should be offering a choice, BOTH ways.

People should remember this isn't a muslim country - so whilst we can make the effort to accommodate for others, it shouldn't be a take over. Same with these Sharia Law courts popping up.

Fair enough, read that parliament PDF its quite interesting that halal accounts for 25% of the market and its impossible at present to trace exactly this.

It suggests that there is way more unlabeled halal than is needed to fill the bellies of the Muslims.

[Davros]

Yes, but if you read my posts I actually said I find it more tender. When asked about difference in taste I said I didn't think there was.

I'm off to the shop now to buy a nice pork pie for lunch

Can you actually get bacon in morroco I worked in rabat and agadir for ages and the only places you could get pork was in the western hotels. Although beer was available in town.