City Miss Out On Yet Another Youth Target, Woe Is Us.

[Monkeh]

Read this thread with interest til the usual took affect

As said about a zillion times, an academy producing players who still play league footbal whether it be for us or elsewhere is a success, we have that. Yes, it's not always been the case, but it is producing. Not every player will make it and not every player is going to be the next Bale or whatever. However doesnt mean that it's any less successful

So we havent signed some randomer from Exeter, big whoopee. There are plenty of players we wont sign  over the course of time, it happens

spot on

[Rob k]

Brian Tinnion should be able to hold a budget so he can purchase these young identified players early with a remit that we have to see a certain % make the first team.

No point in the first team manager making all te calls for the u21, I would like to see Tinnion accountable for his decisions but he needs proper authority to do this.

[Monkeh]

Brian Tinnion should be able to hold a budget so he can purchase these young identified players early with a remit that we have to see a certain % make the first team.

No point in the first team manager making all te calls for the u21, I would like to see Tinnion accountable for his decisions but he needs proper authority to do this.

that only works if the club they are getting them from want to sell and the player theirself wants to come,

We could put a bid in for 300 million quid for yaya tomorrow which must likely would be accepted but there is no way he'd come here,

[spudski]

Read this thread with interest til the usual took affect

As said about a zillion times, an academy producing players who still play league footbal whether it be for us or elsewhere is a success, we have that. Yes, it's not always been the case, but it is producing. Not every player will make it and not every player is going to be the next Bale or whatever. However doesnt mean that it's any less successful

So we havent signed some randomer from Exeter, big whoopee. There are plenty of players we wont sign  over the course of time, it happens

Of course it happens all the time. And yes our Academy and development of players seem to be getting better...and yes we do seem to be moving in the right direction slowly...but there is no problem discussing players that we've picked up on, and not taken when we had the chance, and then other bigger Clubs start to take interest.

 

Of course it happens...but it is something the Club have said they want to improve on...bringing in young hungry players that will improve and develop... It's just a shame when you see bigger Clubs like Southampton and Cardiff in such places as Yate setting up academy's and making life even more difficult for us to pick up young players for the future.

 

You need to keep improving and pro active in this game...otherwise you're always chasing your tail.

 

We always seem to react...rather being pro active. No good after the horse has bolted.

 

But...like I said...things are slowly improving.

 

 

Brian Tinnion should be able to hold a budget so he can purchase these young identified players early with a remit that we have to see a certain % make the first team.

No point in the first team manager making all te calls for the u21, I would like to see Tinnion accountable for his decisions but he needs proper authority to do this.

 

A very valid point.... well put.

[Rob k]

that only works if the club they are getting them from want to sell and the player theirself wants to come,

We could put a bid in for 300 million quid for yaya tomorrow which must likely would be accepted but there is no way he'd come here,

Of course that's the case, however I'm led to believe this Grimes was identified a long time ago and Tinnion wanted him, if he had his own budget we may well have been able to get him but it seems we have missed the boat.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Of course that's the case, however I'm led to believe this Grimes was identified a long time ago and Tinnion wanted him, if he had his own budget we may well have been able to get him but it seems we have missed the boat.

 

We will only KNOW that we have actually missed the boat if this player goes on to prove that on the pitch, wherever that might be. Over the past few years I have seen a lot of random names of youngsters that WE should be signing on this forum and most of them are distant 'average' memories, with the possible exception of Michael Jacobs.

[Major Isewater]

that only works if the club they are getting them from want to sell and the player theirself wants to come,

We could put a bid in for 300 million quid for yaya tomorrow which must likely would be accepted but there is no way he'd come here,

We have cake !

[Major Isewater]

[spudski]

[RedM]

I never understood the 'no over 25's' to mean it literally, more a case of it being a polite way of saying no expensive big names/journeymen after one last big contract, people like Marcus Stewart, Michael Bridges and David James. Our upturn in form and results showed last season that we needed the experience that was brought in.

[Monkeh]

The majority of Scouting is non payment or expenses only. Very few Clubs pay their scouts much. So we cannot blame financial crisis for having a poor set up since Dicks days.

 

We have also had plenty of money poured into us on useless overpaid journeymen pros over the years...that's why we are in this mess.

 

So it's taken nearly 30 years to work this out? So saying people want it to happen 'now' is ridiculous.

 

Other Clubs far poorer than us have a great Scouting network.

 

As for 'these disgruntled employees'...who are you talking about.

 

As far as I'm aware...the majority of what is being spoken about on here, is based on what is happening with the Club now and with it's current employees.

 

I pointed out earlier in the thread, comments that SC came out with and these seem to be completely ignored.

 

They concern me, because they go against the grain in everything the Lansdowns and board said they wanted to go regarding recruitment.

 

It's an observation...

 

We will see what SC does regarding recruiting in the next few months... I'll be concerned if he brings in a majority of over 25's...as I will question who is running this Club, and whether they actually mean anything they say.

 

Of course they may have changed their mind re the policy...but it would be nice to know.

yea lets do what SoD did bring in young players only, maybe we can go hole hug and actually get relegated to league 2 this time instead of getting a decent manager with a good track record in to save us,

[Cowshed]

yea lets do what SoD did bring in young players only, maybe we can go hole hug and actually get relegated to league 2 this time instead of getting a decent manager with a good track record in to save us,

Again you appear to be incapable of understanding the point being constantly being put forward regarding continuity, forward planning and development.

BCFC are at this level because they overspent on has been, poor, and poorer while ceasing to think beyond the short term.

A point was made about incorporating foreign models into BS3. Far smaller clubs than BCFC abroad, and those with smaller budgets produce better rounded players and more of them. Foreign clubs like Lyon purchase better, far far better with a mind to turn in a profit. This is not done via Citys shit or bust strategy 2008 - 12, and austerity strategy 2012 - 2013.

The five pillars already looks like history and can be placed alongside David Russe and the Reform groups "five years!"

[Monkeh]

Again ypou appear to be incapable of understanding the point being constantly be put forward regarding continuity, forwards planning and development.

BCFC are at this level because they overspent on poor, and pooer while ceasing to think beyond the short term.

A point was made about incorporating foreign models into BS3. Far smaller clubs than BCFC abroad, and those with smaller budgets produce better rounded players and more of them. This is not done via Citys shit or bust strategy 2008 - 12, austerity strategy 2012 - 2014 or whatver it is City are doing now.

The five pillars already looks like history and can be placed alongside David Russe and the Reform groups "five years!"

and you fail to understand that things don't change overnight these things take years to implement,

15 years ago southampton were rarely ibringing through youngsters that were of first team standed and struggled they changed course and over the last 5 years have been reaping the rewards,

 

City as a club have done this we've changed course proven by the fact we've been granted a level 2 acadmey status but people like you expect all these youngsters to suddenlly appear next season, they won't we won;t really being seeing them for another 3 or 4 years yet,

 

We as a club need the right blend of players of all ages for every youngster you need an experiance player to help mold them that is as important as coaching,

Signing just youngsters doesnt work it has never worked and it will never work because you need experiance, Players like barkley benifit playing along side players like osmen at everton,

We have some decent youngsters but we have next to no experiance in the squad especally in the middle of the park, look how much we improved by bringing in the journey ment Wade Elliot and Nyron Nosworthy, suddenlly the balace was correct the quailty was there and we climbed the table all while ignoring the 5 pillers which people fail to understand that they are a guidline o

 

We will be aiming to sign younger players where possible but you still can't beat a good old pro in that mix, if we've always done as you and spudski have suggested we would never of signed the likes of shaun taylor or joe jorden in the past,

 

Right player at the right time its hard but it amazes me how many people can't see past the "age" thing as if its the end of the world that we've signed some 29 years old who should really ave another 6 years as a pro left in them

[spudski]

and you fail to understand that things don't change overnight these things take years to implement,

15 years ago southampton were rarely ibringing through youngsters that were of first team standed and struggled they changed course and over the last 5 years have been reaping the rewards,

 

City as a club have done this we've changed course proven by the fact we've been granted a level 2 acadmey status but people like you expect all these youngsters to suddenlly appear next season, they won't we won;t really being seeing them for another 3 or 4 years yet,

 

We as a club need the right blend of players of all ages for every youngster you need an experiance player to help mold them that is as important as coaching,

Signing just youngsters doesnt work it has never worked and it will never work because you need experiance, Players like barkley benifit playing along side players like osmen at everton,

We have some decent youngsters but we have next to no experiance in the squad especally in the middle of the park, look how much we improved by bringing in the journey ment Wade Elliot and Nyron Nosworthy, suddenlly the balace was correct the quailty was there and we climbed the table all while ignoring the 5 pillers which people fail to understand that they are a guidline o

 

We will be aiming to sign younger players where possible but you still can't beat a good old pro in that mix, if we've always done as you and spudski have suggested we would never of signed the likes of shaun taylor or joe jorden in the past,

 

Right player at the right time its hard but it amazes me how many people can't see past the "age" thing as if its the end of the world that we've signed some 29 years old who should really ave another 6 years as a pro left in them

Blimey mate...you really are blinkered and read into posts what you want to read.

 

Why is it a 'them an us' attitude... we all want the best for the Club, yet you still want to cause divide.

 

Of course we need a blend of experience and youth...that's a given.

 

I'd rather have the likes of Nosworthy, Elokobi and Elliott at their age on one year deals...to help the youth than 28 year olds on three year deals. Hence why the El Abd signing and contract is a worry.

 

Do we really need 28 year olds on longer contracts with family settling in the area again?

 

You explain to me how you see SC's quotes regarding recruitment... it's not anything like what was set out by the Board.

 

And why do you keep referring to SoD? No one is mentioning him or advocating what he did is better than SC

 

Surely you can see that?

[Kid in the Riot]

yea lets do what SoD did bring in young players only, maybe we can go hole hug and actually get relegated to league 2 this time instead of getting a decent manager with a good track record in to save us,

 

I do sometimes wonder if it is an actual monkey tapping away behind your keyboard.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

The majority of Scouting is non payment or expenses only. Very few Clubs pay their scouts much. So we cannot blame financial crisis for having a poor set up since Dicks days.

 

We have also had plenty of money poured into us on useless overpaid journeymen pros over the years...that's why we are in this mess.

 

So it's taken nearly 30 years to work this out? So saying people want it to happen 'now' is ridiculous.

 

Other Clubs far poorer than us have a great Scouting network.

 

As for 'these disgruntled employees'...who are you talking about.

 

As far as I'm aware...the majority of what is being spoken about on here, is based on what is happening with the Club now and with it's current employees.

 

I pointed out earlier in the thread, comments that SC came out with and these seem to be completely ignored.

 

They concern me, because they go against the grain in everything the Lansdowns and board said they wanted to go regarding recruitment.

 

It's an observation...

 

We will see what SC does regarding recruiting in the next few months... I'll be concerned if he brings in a majority of over 25's...as I will question who is running this Club, and whether they actually mean anything they say.

 

Of course they may have changed their mind re the policy...but it would be nice to know.

 

OK, what I should have said was that lack of scouting becomes a consequence of the dropping of youth teams and it's coaching set up, which is where in the past money saving has been effected and not just in 82 but after the Davison era as well and as I said it's usually the first place for the axe to fall in times of financial trouble.

 

The only journeymen in the past 12 months were Harewoood and Shorey, i'm sure you would know if they were overpaid or not.

 

of course it's ridiculous to want it all put right in one fell swoop, you have quite rightly pointed out that this part of the club has been a shambles and the club are now trying to rectify this piece by piece and as you also correctly said their is no clear template for us to follow, so are you advocating just throwing money in all directions and feed off of the bits that go right and write off the bits that don't?, do you believe that is how that the Southampton model became so successful?.

 

So all of this discord at the club that you keep telling us is happening behind the scenes, surely the sources must be employees? and if they are making their claims they cannot surely be happy.

 

The recruiting will be interesting and crucial of course but the overall ages of those recruits will be in general immaterial IMO, it needs to be a mix the best players in each position that we can afford and who want to play in the 3rd tier and be vigilant for players who will enhance the development squad.

[SecretSam]

Hey Noggers.

Yes, this is one we have definitely missed out on.  Grimes is an excellent young player, sadly BCFC reacted too late!

 

I have regular contact with some people in Exeter and I know for a fact that Grimes has been watched 9 times by BCFC this season - the article in the paper the other day said that Burt had watched him personally, but to my knowledge, he has never been to see him on any of these 9 occasions, it's been Tinnion.  This was until the last time, when a couple of SC's own men finally went to take a look.

 

I know for a fact that BCFC were 'made aware' of Grimes in 2012, before he was anywhere near the first team at Exeter.  It's at that time that we should have been making a move for what was clearly a very talented lad.  We could have made a move in Jan 13 or in Summer 13 and might have got him for relative peanuts.  We might have got him for a decent fee in Jan 14, but now in Summer 14 it's all too late.

 

I've been told by my contacts at Exeter that our scouting team have been told for a long time to get this lad - he's been regularly watched by Everton who basically were baffled as to why we hadn't snapped him up yet - Quote "He's on your doorstep and you can get him for peanuts, why aren't you" (Everton are very keen on him but would have preferred to see him progress outside the Prem for a couple of seasons, whereas we should have just jumped on him straight away).

 

Shame this one.

 

This is all so depressing and such an indictment of all that's ****** up about our club that it makes me want to cry

 

Our only hope of a sustainable and successful future is to bring on youth and - where necessary - sell them on at a profit

[SecretSam]

Perhaps it had something to do with what SC said in his Radio Bristol Interview?

 

'Potential signings

SC: We need to look for more experienced players, 30 years olds are alright so long as they are the right ones. We need to find players 25-28.

 

Bristol is a good city, younger players take advantage of the city nightlife and sometimes it doesn't benefit the club. Ideally a 25 year old married player with kids would be a good player.

 

We have enough youngsters here. They might struggle but at the end of the season they will have learned something and the tough ones will break there way in to the first team.

 

We wont be signing any 17/18/19 year olds from league 1/2 to come and play in our academy as its blocking our own players.'

 

Oh please Lord I hope he doesn't mean that

[alexukhc]

Since Burnside passed on out youths have gone on not to do a lot, a lot even drop out the game altogether

[Son of Fred]

I'd go for the last point of your post;

"unfortunately, just fairly ordinary players who are over rated by club and fans alike?"

If they were really as good as made out they would have played and achieved more last season.

Watcing Bobby play at times reminds me of that situation when you are watching a clearly talented 14 yr old playing his first matches in 'mans' football for a local ametuer side-in as much as you can see ability but is clearly struggling with the physicality...that old phrase 'men against boys' very applicable,and to a certain extent with Bryant too.you have to be able to look after yourself and have something about you or you will be muscled out of the game.physically they don't appear to be up to it more so than the football side though of course it comes hand in hand.

[Chappers]

This thread just about sums up why City continually fail to progress, too much emphasis on short-term results, not enough forward thinking. At Championship level we are a small Club, cannot really compete in the transfer market, so need to be shrewd in our acquisitions, and look to make profits on players to fund key purchases. We can keep signing experienced players and ignore younger talent, will get us out of this division, but will also get us back here pretty sharpish.

[SecretSam]

This thread just about sums up why City continually fail to progress, too much emphasis on short-term results, not enough forward thinking. At Championship level we are a small Club, cannot really compete in the transfer market, so need to be shrewd in our acquisitions, and look to make profits on players to fund key purchases. We can keep signing experienced players and ignore younger talent, will get us out of this division, but will also get us back here pretty sharpish.

Top of the class, back of the net.  3 lines of pure gold.

[spudski]

This thread just about sums up why City continually fail to progress, too much emphasis on short-term results, not enough forward thinking. At Championship level we are a small Club, cannot really compete in the transfer market, so need to be shrewd in our acquisitions, and look to make profits on players to fund key purchases. We can keep signing experienced players and ignore younger talent, will get us out of this division, but will also get us back here pretty sharpish.

I couldn't agree more. Our ability in my time watching City, in general, to develop youngsters and spot young talent and give them a go, has been dire.

 

It makes me chuckle when fans say... 'lets see how well they do'.... when they've been picked up by another Club....because it's mainly 'the other club' willing to give them a go.

 

Grimes and Forrester are two examples of good players who were 'off the radar' so to speak, that we have dithered over. Now they are getting attention from bigger Clubs.

 

In this current climate, we have to be more diligent and proactive in the search for these types of players.

 

The Forester situation, is a prime example of where allowing the manager to control signings at a Club fails.

 

Because the manager was sacked during the time of his agreed terms, it failed to materialise...how stupid is that?

This is why I always prefer a Technical director/s of football and coach in place.

 

The 'CLUB' find the players...the Coach.... does his bit on the field.

[chipdawg]

This thread just about sums up why City continually fail to progress, too much emphasis on short-term results, not enough forward thinking. At Championship level we are a small Club, cannot really compete in the transfer market, so need to be shrewd in our acquisitions, and look to make profits on players to fund key purchases. We can keep signing experienced players and ignore younger talent, will get us out of this division, but will also get us back here pretty sharpish.

But surely we need to go for a blend of both? Look at Southampton and Norwich; consecutive promotions with squads that featured plenty of young players and a healthy sprinkling of experience. Both brought in experienced lower-league strikers and one of those is off to the World Cup this summer. They both had. experience through the spine of the team and I think we now have that up front (Baldock has been around long enough to be 'experienced') and at the back (through Osbourne and El Abd... Hopefully...) but we need an old head or two in midfield. If we started the season tomorrow, I suspect that Pack and Kelly would be our first choice midfield combo, possibly with Reid if we played three. All talented footballers but not with a great deal of experience at this or a higher level. An ideal scenario for me this summer would be for us to sign perhaps 3 experienced players, 3 ones for the (near) future and give the likes of Morrell, Mafuta and Wynter, as well as Bryan, Reid and especially Burns chances where appropriate

[Esmond Million's Bung]

But surely we need to go for a blend of both? Look at Southampton and Norwich; consecutive promotions with squads that featured plenty of young players and a healthy sprinkling of experience. Both brought in experienced lower-league strikers and one of those is off to the World Cup this summer. They both had. experience through the spine of the team and I think we now have that up front (Baldock has been around long enough to be 'experienced') and at the back (through Osbourne and El Abd... Hopefully...) but we need an old head or two in midfield. If we started the season tomorrow, I suspect that Pack and Kelly would be our first choice midfield combo, possibly with Reid if we played three. All talented footballers but not with a great deal of experience at this or a higher level. An ideal scenario for me this summer would be for us to sign perhaps 3 experienced players, 3 ones for the (near) future and give the likes of Morrell, Mafuta and Wynter, as well as Bryan, Reid and especially Burns chances where appropriate

 

Pretty much spot on.

 

Last season we tried just signing players under 24 years old and it was an unmitigated disaster that could easily have ended in relegation, the truth was we had no leaders. SOD tried to implement this particular pillar in one fell swoop and it was never going to work.

 

So where are we now?, IMO a more considered approach, coach the talent we have up within the academy and add to it ditto with the development squad and keep playing the academy products that are ready for that step up, but until they are consistent enough it has to be bit parts, that's the way it has to be.

 

The transformation of our dire past in producing young players, cannot suddenly change overnight it takes time and to me it appears to be happening, the Spanish kids who round about a week ago were not coming are now (perhaps they always were), that has to be progress, Reid, Bryan and Burns have been given chances to step up to the mark IMO it's up to them now to prove that they are good enough to show consistency and I would like to ask, who else in our development squad is ready now? I don't see many other names bandied around on here.

 

Forrester is no further on than he was a year ago, basically he still has a 'host' of clubs looking at him, he might get a club this time around and make a great success of himself and we will have missed out or he could fail, so will that then vindicate our decision not to sign him in the first place? of course not but we cannot sign every player that is recommended to the club.

 

Grimes is more interesting really, I wonder who is more pissed off about missing him BCFC or Southampton?, we are at the beginning of our journey to HOPEFULLY create a similar set up to Southampton but Southampton how the **** did they miss out on him.

 

Our strategy of producing players was flawed and that is bit by bit being addressed, a policy of only signing players under 24 years of age is flawed, but what interests me most is this for the people who want to turn the shambles around overnight, there is only one way to do that pretty much throw unlimited amounts of money at it and that is just plain ridiculous, perhaps just perhaps the next step might be to allow Tinnion a budget (I don't profess to know enough about that, to understand it's ramifications) who knows perhaps just like the misinformation about the Spanish kids that might well be in the pipeline.

[GrahamC]

But surely we need to go for a blend of both? Look at Southampton and Norwich; consecutive promotions with squads that featured plenty of young players and a healthy sprinkling of experience. Both brought in experienced lower-league strikers and one of those is off to the World Cup this summer. They both had. experience through the spine of the team and I think we now have that up front (Baldock has been around long enough to be 'experienced') and at the back (through Osbourne and El Abd... Hopefully...) but we need an old head or two in midfield. If we started the season tomorrow, I suspect that Pack and Kelly would be our first choice midfield combo, possibly with Reid if we played three. All talented footballers but not with a great deal of experience at this or a higher level. An ideal scenario for me this summer would be for us to sign perhaps 3 experienced players, 3 ones for the (near) future and give the likes of Morrell, Mafuta and Wynter, as well as Bryan, Reid and especially Burns chances where appropriate

Absolutely right.

We did some very good things last summer, Williams and JET in particular were good bits of business and Wagstaff and Pack were ok.

But the answer has to be a blend, with 4 senior professionals leaving this summer it is not unreasonable to add some more experienced players as well, though I'm anticipating the usual response from some when Cotterill signs anyone over 25.

For the record his only three permanent signings so far are 29, 26 and 20, by the way.

[Red-Robbo]

This thread sums up this board. We "miss out" on some 18-year-old who is apparently "destined for the PL" and out come the prophets of doom once again.

You could construct a.damned fine XI of players we missed out on - going back to Trevor Francis.

But guess what? You could say that at any club.

So let's all carry on crying about some 18-year-old who may, or may not, make it.

[spudski]

I think certain posters are missing the point completely.

 

Bringing the likes of Grimes and Forester in wouldn't make a sudden impact...but they would be here non the less to develop under our coaching and around our first team.

 

It's not about finding young players that will necessarily walk straight into the first team eleven.

It's about developing talent that is ahead or level with young players around the first team. So that they can fit in within a year or so.

 

Of course we need Older Pros with experience... We had them under SoD, Harewood was brought in especially for this, and Shorey... unfortunately results didn't happen. And we had a few brought in under SC during the Loan system, plus El Abd.

 

We need more experienced Pros signed for the spine of the team and experience.

 

But more importantly we need young hungry players signed as well to develop and fit in around the first team set up, so that we can develop a team of players for a few seasons together.

 

Bringing in 28 year olds on 3 year contracts isn't the way forward. Often these players are on their last big contract and are going through the motions.

 

If we can get the likes of Elliott, Nosworthy and maybe Elokobi on short deals...then fine.

 

 

This thread sums up this board. We "miss out" on some 18-year-old who is apparently "destined for the PL" and out come the prophets of doom once again.

You could construct a.damned fine XI of players we missed out on - going back to Trevor Francis.

But guess what? You could say that at any club.

So let's all carry on crying about some 18-year-old who may, or may not, make it.

 Don't you mean 'Our Board'....rather than this Board?

 

No one is talking 'Gloom'...it's just a conversation on the pros and cons of recruitment.

 

We are already making progress in a positive manner...but why rest on out laurels? Keep getting better and ahead of the game and we will succeed...be proactive instead of reactive....which has been our downfall.

 

What sums this forum up...is people not willing to discuss football...but just slag off other forum members, for having an opinion.

At least some on here like to discuss football and the Club...which is what it's all about.

[Red-Robbo]

Discuss football, Spud? You are using the alleged "missing" of some young player who we have no idea of whether he'll make it or not as yet another cudgel to bash the management with and live up to your Otib name.

As we don't know who Cotterill will bring in and who genuinely is on the radar, why not wait until the Summer is over before drawing big conclusions from one youth player.

If we line-up in August with a team of over-30s Pulis-style journeymen, I may well agree with you and change my board name to the Depths of Even More Despair!!!