City Miss Out On Yet Another Youth Target, Woe Is Us.

[GrahamC]

Wrong again monkeh, your inaccurate ramblings are getting quite tedious. When SC joined I actually said he'd keep us up comfortably. I have always said he'd do a decent job in the short term. After the Sheff U game probably 80% of our support thought we'd be relegated so I'm sorry if my faith in him maybe had a temporary blip! On hoofball, well I certainly feared the worse when he brought Barnett in but we haven't really resorted to it. That said, I wouldn't rave about the performances under SC and there have been some dreadful ones. Happy to be proven wrong on this but let's wait and see when he shapes his own squad this summer.

Of course you said he'd "comfortably" keep us up (even though most felt we looked certainties to go down when he took over) as it meant you could cheerfully slag him off if he failed.

As for not "really" resorting to "hoofball" we haven't at all.

All managers' teams produce dreadful performances, ask Wenger, the trick he pulled off was to make them far less frequent that his predecessor.

Where I do agree is we'll know more once he has shaped his own squad, then those withan agenda will return to moaning whilst the majority will give him a chance.

I do agree that some of his public pronouncements are a little bizarre though, having listened to his comment at the Q&A about buying 18 year olds a house...

[spudski]

Wrong again monkeh, your inaccurate ramblings are getting quite tedious. When SC joined I actually said he'd keep us up comfortably. I have always said he'd do a decent job in the short term. After the Sheff U game probably 80% of our support thought we'd be relegated so I'm sorry if my faith in him maybe had a temporary blip!

 

On hoofball, well I certainly feared the worse when he brought Barnett in but we haven't really resorted to it. That said, I wouldn't rave about the performances under SC and there have been some dreadful ones. Happy to be proven wrong on this but let's wait and see when he shapes his own squad this summer.

As did I...regarding staying up. He really is annoying.   And like you...do wonder whether it actually is a monkey typing away...  Another who just nit picks and try's to play one up manship against forum members, instead of adding to the debate. So childish...   I'd actually listen to him, if he had something worthwhile to say. He's like a little annoying jack Russell nipping at your ankles around the forum...follows you around everywhere. If he doesn't like what we say and can't add to the debate like EMB...then why does he comment? Why can't he just ignore us if he doesn't like what we talk about? It's what the 'ignore' button is for...

 

And all this stuff about 'cult of SoD' and 'Agendas'...wtf is that all about...like a few lads on a forum talking football, is going to have any effect on the football Club       It's a forum for having fun and and debating...FFS

[chipdawg]

Whilst I am reading some very reasonable comment on this thread, and it is an area of the greatest strategic importance to a football club, recruitment and scouting, I feel a lot of comment is being made without too much fact. I also think certain comments by SC are taken out of context to the points being raised , but there is a clear strategy he wishes to follow this summer. You see i took the youth comments in a different way, saying more or less that what we are already doing is in the right direction and no wholesale recruitment change was needed, and I guess the new lads signing confirms that.

I do share the real concerns like others in the main first team area. The El Bad signing was straight out of the BCFC book of where we kept getting it wrong. Any signing is a risk, and every club makes errors, no matter what the level. I expect SC to push for experienced players, it is the quick fix again, but will not produce a long term sustainability, we have seen that. However, there is normally an interesting group of players 23 to 26 who have either made a rapid rise through the leagues and got burnt ( JET for example) or others that got lost at a big club , others released from top clubs daly who rebuild careers in L1 and L2 who have something to prove. Players in recent past like Orr for example. I thought that was the type of player we have had most success with, and our best signings in recent years have been Albert and Bolasie, both coming from lower league clubs, and within a few years playing consistently at a higher level.

That we signed Williams last summer shows to me something is working, and I reserve judgement on our transfer policy until I see who we sign, as 5 more El Bads should give every fan someone to be concerned about, not because we will sign 5 poor players, but that late 20's long contract is, we know, a way to ensure we will be having this conversation again and again over the next years.

I have mentioned some months ago that there are clubs at our level who have made dramatic progress over recent years, and why can we not realistically aim to follow Southampton and Swansea. Indeed, I would hire immediately the 2 coaches who have just been fired from the Southampton Academy. The Academy is outside of FFP and is where we need to be investing most, to get ASAP to Tier 1.

El Abd had captained a team to League 1 promotion in the recent past and played a lot of games for that team in several pretty successful Championship seasons. I don't think it was a bad signing on paper and I still feel he might come good with a full pre-season, though the paper talk of Cotterill wanting a new centre half might mean he feels different

[glynriley]

El Abd had captained a team to League 1 promotion in the recent past and played a lot of games for that team in several pretty successful Championship seasons. I don't think it was a bad signing on paper and I still feel he might come good with a full pre-season, though the paper talk of Cotterill wanting a new centre half might mean he feels different

 

During the Radio Bristol interview on Saturday, SC's response to a question about El Abd was very short and gave me the impression he's unlikely to feature much. That may just be my interpretation of his answer, but compared to him waxing lyrical about several other members of the squad, it was a rather terse response.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Wrong again monkeh, your inaccurate ramblings are getting quite tedious. When SC joined I actually said he'd keep us up comfortably. I have always said he'd do a decent job in the short term. After the Sheff U game probably 80% of our support thought we'd be relegated so I'm sorry if my faith in him maybe had a temporary blip!

 

On hoofball, well I certainly feared the worse when he brought Barnett in but we haven't really resorted to it. That said, I wouldn't rave about the performances under SC and there have been some dreadful ones. Happy to be proven wrong on this but let's wait and see when he shapes his own squad this summer.

 

Did you fear the worst when we signed Harewood? before the season even started?.

 

I find it funny that SC signs Barnett ergo 'hoofball', SOD signs Harewood an over the hill 'journeyman' (the scourge of BCFC transfer policy according to you and spud) and ??????.

[chipdawg]

During the Radio Bristol interview on Saturday, SC's response to a question about El Abd was very short and gave me the impression he's unlikely to feature much. That may just be my interpretation of his answer, but compared to him waxing lyrical about several other members of the squad, it was a rather terse response.

Just seems very strange to me. He's clearly Cotterill's signing but he seems to have abandoned him after a few (very) bad games. I wonder if there are issues other than footballing ones going on here

[spudski]

Did you fear the worst when we signed Harewood? before the season even started?.

 

I find it funny that SC signs Barnett ergo 'hoofball', SOD signs Harewood an over the hill 'journeyman' (the scourge of BCFC transfer policy according to you and spud) and ??????.

Yep...I don't rate either of them.

Although if memory serves me right... SoD said he brought Harewood in, not for just adding an option to the squad, but more for his professionalism and way he could pass some of his experience on to the young 'ens.

 

Please...can we once and for all clear up, no one, as far as I can see is in the of camp SoD or of camp SC... SC is our manager now...what has gone on in the past...is the past.

 

I don't blame SC doing what he does. If I was given free reign as a manager I'd do it my way too. I really don't blame him.

 

What I do question...is the Club allowing one man to do it 'his way'...and say publicly what he intends to do, when it goes against many of the policies the Club have said they wish to go down.

 

What role does Tinnion have if SC is dictating who comes to play in the Academy?

What role does Burt have now...and who is working in unison with who now?

 

These are some of the questions and thoughts I have when I talk about 'the running of the Club'.

[spudski]

Just seems very strange to me. He's clearly Cotterill's signing but he seems to have abandoned him after a few (very) bad games. I wonder if there are issues other than footballing ones going on here

It's been spoken about on the El Abd thread. Not settling etc,etc,etc...it's all on their.

[Major Isewater]

[glynriley]

Just seems very strange to me. He's clearly Cotterill's signing but he seems to have abandoned him after a few (very) bad games. I wonder if there are issues other than footballing ones going on here

 

That's the rumour. Big bust up after he was hooked at half time is what I've heard.

 

I'm sure some of the other contributors to this thread will know though.

[chipdawg]

It's been spoken about on the El Abd thread. Not settling etc,etc,etc...it's all on their.

I briefly read that but it seemed to be pub talk and speculation rather than actual fact. Would make sense though

[Major Isewater]

In reply to the El Bad situation ,I heard it's to do with him not liking his nickname .

He would like to be called "El Magnificent" and i hear there are also issues with birthday cake .

[spudski]

That's the rumour. Big bust up after he was hooked at half time is what I've heard.

 

I'm sure some of the other contributors to this thread will know though.

That's exactly what I have heard too. As well as other 'personal' problems.

 

The bust up...allegedly went along the lines of SC telling him to get himself sorted at half time or their will be a problem, and El Abd losing it, and telling SC, that it was he who had the problem, as he was here for three years....

 

All hear say and Alleged...but that's what I've heard.

[Major Isewater]

That's exactly what I have heard too. As well as other 'personal' problems.

The bust up...allegedly went along the lines of SC telling him to get himself sorted at half time or their will be a problem, and El Abd losing it, and telling SC, that it was he who had the problem, as he was here for three years....

All hear say and Alleged...but that's what I've heard.

Two other Eygptian signings,Al hearsay and Al Edged !

[spudski]

Two other Eygptian signings,Al hearsay and Al Edged !

Haha...very good... I'm liking your thinking :-)

[Nogbad the Bad]

 

Please...can we once and for all clear up, no one, as far as I can see is in the of camp SoD or of camp SC... SC is our manager now...what has gone on in the past...is the past.

 

 

There's no point pretending there aren't still deep rooted divisions along those lines.

 

The reception SC got from day one from from up to a dozen pro - O'Driscoll posters was atrocious.

 

They openly stated they couldn't stand him, he is thick, hoofball from now on, and much more besides.

 

Many have since had the good grace to admit they were wrong, and are now embarrassed by their initial comments, but there are clearly still a number of posters who are actively waiting for any little opportunity to stick the knife in.

 

Sad really - as Bristol City fans they should be more than happy to eat their words and give SC some credit after the outstanding job he's done to lift our club - on all fronts - so far.

[spudski]

There's no point pretending there aren't still deep rooted divisions along those lines.

 

The reception SC got from day one from from up to a dozen pro - O'Driscoll posters was atrocious.

 

They openly stated they couldn't stand him, he is thick, hoofball from now on, and much more besides.

 

Many have since had the good grace to admit they were wrong, and are now embarrassed by their initial comments, but there are clearly still a number of posters who are actively waiting for any little opportunity to stick the knife in.

 

Sad really - as Bristol City fans they should be more than happy to eat their words and give SC some credit after the outstanding job he's done to lift our club - on all fronts - so far.

I can't see anyone on here wishing him to fail.

 

He's achieved exactly what he was brought in to do. Avoid relegation using the loan system. No one can say our form didn't get better after playing the majority of our loan players. A short term fix again. But it's worked so far...

 

All every City fan wants, is this Club to kick on with whoever is in charge... but to not fall into the same mistakes it's done in the past.

 

If SC can do that...then great.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Yep...I don't rate either of them.

Although if memory serves me right... SoD said he brought Harewood in, not for just adding an option to the squad, but more for his professionalism and way he could pass some of his experience on to the young 'ens.

 

Please...can we once and for all clear up, no one, as far as I can see is in the of camp SoD or of camp SC... SC is our manager now...what has gone on in the past...is the past.

 

I don't blame SC doing what he does. If I was given free reign as a manager I'd do it my way too. I really don't blame him.

 

What I do question...is the Club allowing one man to do it 'his way'...and say publicly what he intends to do, when it goes against many of the policies the Club have said they wish to go down.

 

What role does Tinnion have if SC is dictating who comes to play in the Academy?

What role does Burt have now...and who is working in unison with who now?

 

These are some of the questions and thoughts I have when I talk about 'the running of the Club'.

 

Firstly I really don't know that SC has the power that you claim, until I actually see it or hear it.

 

As for the highlighted portion both of these people are big boys and IF they are unhappy with their roles within the club, they can grow a set and move on, a bit like a unhappy marriage, it really is that simple.

[spudski]

Firstly I really don't know that SC has the power that you claim, until I actually see it or hear it.

 

As for the highlighted portion both of these people are big boys and IF they are unhappy with their roles within the club, they can grow a set and move on, a bit like a unhappy marriage, it really is that simple.

Interesting thought crossed my mind...for the long term future of the Club...who would you rather have here, if pushed come to shove?

 

Carlos Anton and Brian Tinnion or SC?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Interesting thought crossed my mind...for the long term future of the Club...who would you rather have here, if pushed come to shove?

 

Carlos Anton and Brian Tinnion or SC?

 

it's very simple for me, you didn't mention him but i'll bring Burt or a DOF into the equation, as long as they all get on and are singing pretty much from the same sheet with the same overall goals and are not in the background bitching to agents when they don't always get their own way, let us not forget that i'm sure that one that you have mentioned has unfinished business as far as SC's job is concerned and any bitching by anybody in the background is not healthy for any club, just do your own job to best of your ability and be loyal, keep any disagreements in house and deal with them like men, not spoilt kids who can't get their own way grassing to the teacher, nobody likes a grass.

 

To answer your question Carlos Anton's and Tinnion's worth at this precise moment in time is unquantifiable and will be until their labours bear fruit, SC saved us from relegation, so at this precise moment in time if CA or BT got involved in any power struggle to undermine SC, then SC would get my nod, but if these guys just get on with their own jobs and do them to best of their abilities, one of two things will happen either SC will fail and one or both of them will climb further up the greasy pole or they will get noticed by a bigger club and move on and if it's the latter then presumably the club will be healthier.

 

There has to complete trust throughout the club, it's the only way it can work.

[spudski]

it's very simple for me, you didn't mention him but i'll bring Burt or a DOF into the equation, as long as they all get on and are singing pretty much from the same sheet with the same overall goals and are not in the background bitching to agents when they don't always get their own way, let us not forget that i'm sure that one that you have mentioned has unfinished business as far as SC's job is concerned and any bitching by anybody in the background is not healthy for any club, just do your own job to best of your ability and be loyal, keep any disagreements in house and deal with them like men, not spoilt kids who can't get their own way grassing to the teacher, nobody likes a grass.

 

To answer your question Carlos Anton's and Tinnion's worth at this precise moment in time is unquantifiable and will be until their labours bear fruit, SC saved us from relegation, so at this precise moment in time if CA or BT got involved in any power struggle to undermine SC, then SC would get my nod, but if these guys just get on with their own jobs and do them to best of their abilities, one of two things will happen either SC will fail and one or both of them will climb further up the greasy pole or they will get noticed by a bigger club and move on and if it's the latter then presumably the club will be healthier.

 

There has to complete trust throughout the club, it's the only way it can work.

Completely agree...everyone has to be singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

 

However... I don't understand how the Club can give two men a job... Tinnion...head of recruitment for under 21's... and not give him a budget to work with, and be responsible for who he brings in and judged by that.

 

Plus...Burt... how do you employ a DoF and have him told what to do by the manager?

 

Surely the Club should be attending these matters, so that everyone is moving in the same direction, and it doesn't cause confusion and who is responsible?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Completely agree...everyone has to be singing from the same hymn sheet so to speak.

 

However... I don't understand how the Club can give two men a job... Tinnion...head of recruitment for under 21's... and not give him a budget to work with, and be responsible for who he brings in and judged by that.

 

Plus...Burt... how do you employ a DoF and have him told what to do by the manager?

 

Surely the Club should be attending these matters, so that everyone is moving in the same direction, and it doesn't cause confusion and who is responsible?

 

Again I know nothing of this, so I cannot comment, all I will say is your sources have been wrong before and who knows perhaps tomorrow it'll be announced that Tinnion has a budget and Burt has resigned Fontaine to make up for the El Abd faux pas. Football eh............................

[spudski]

Again I know nothing of this, so I cannot comment, all I will say is your sources have been wrong before and who knows perhaps tomorrow it'll be announced that Tinnion has a budget and Burt has resigned Fontaine to make up for the El Abd faux pas. Football eh............................

Non have them have been wrong mate...things do change down the pipeline when attended too...thank goodness.

 

Football...indeed

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Non have them have been wrong mate...things do change down the pipeline when attended too...thank goodness.

 

Football...indeed

 

if you say so, but boy that changed incredibly quickly, must have been a miracle worker to set up something that wasn't happening in such a quick time frame, of course it might have been going to happen all along, just took a bit longer and somebody pulled the trigger prematurely, just saying like.

 

One quick analogy here, your scenario where the DOF brings in all of the signings (for the first team) and is virtually untouchable. in a previous life I ended up in a instructional capacity, allegedly suitable candidates were brought to me and if I could make a case that the candidates were not up to it and that I had enough evidence to back that view up and prove that I had tried and failed to assist in the correcting of those failures and prove that candidate had been made well aware of my views throughout the process, they were history. One day a boss came to me and said "we are changing the system, from now on if we bring you a plank of wood and you cannot bring that plank of wood up to the required standard, you have failed". That's bosses speak for if we selected a guy, there is no way on earth we could have made a wrong decision because we are bosses and therefore infallible. What happens when the DOF keeps signing planks of wood, apart from a nice fence when the manager is put on gardening leave and the DOF is busy finding more planks.

[spudski]

if you say so, but boy that changed incredibly quickly, must have been a miracle worker to set up something that wasn't happening in such a quick time frame, of course it might have been going to happen all along, just took a bit longer and somebody pulled the trigger prematurely, just saying like.

 

One quick analogy here, your scenario where the DOF brings in all of the signings (for the first team) and is virtually untouchable. in a previous life I ended up in a instructional capacity, allegedly suitable candidates were brought to me and if I could make a case that the candidates were not up to it and that I had enough evidence to back that view up and prove that I had tried and failed to assist in the correcting of those failures and prove that candidate had been made well aware of my views throughout the process, they were history. One day a boss came to me and said "we are changing the system, from now on if we bring you a plank of wood and you cannot bring that plank of wood up to the required standard, you have failed". That's bosses speak for if we selected a guy, there is no way on earth we could have made a wrong decision because we are bosses and therefore infallible. What happens when the DOF keeps signing planks of wood, apart from a nice fence when the manager is put on gardening leave and the DOF is busy finding more planks.

It changed quickly from the time I mentioned it on here... but it was something I'd been told about quiet a while back. Obviously decisions were made to allow it to happen. Which is great. They obviously felt passionate about it...and pesued it.

 

As for 'My' scenario...it isn't mine mate...it's a policy used throughout the world at different Clubs. It's very common...it's just the UK that doesn't use it generally.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

It changed quickly from the time I mentioned it on here... but it was something I'd been told about quiet a while back. Obviously decisions were made to allow it to happen. Which is great. They obviously felt passionate about it...and pesued it.

 

As for 'My' scenario...it isn't mine mate...it's a policy used throughout the world at different Clubs. It's very common...it's just the UK that doesn't use it generally.

 

and perhaps there is good reason for that, you still haven't named a successful model, you referenced Lyon after somebody else mentioned first it but backtracked after it was pointed out that it hasn't actually been that successful and they seem recently to be changing managers every 2 years or so (so clearly something is awry).

 

I don't know about anybody else but to me you seem to be advocating a system that you cannot even offer up a successful model for or plainly does not actually exist, because as far as I can see the DOF model seems to end up with managers changing roughly every 2 years, which is the one thing that you are vehemently against, some have initial success but they quickly descend into a manager merry go round.

[spudski]

and perhaps there is good reason for that, you still haven't named a successful model, you referenced Lyon after somebody else mentioned first it but backtracked after it was pointed out that it hasn't actually been that successful and they seem recently to be changing managers every 2 years or so (so clearly something is awry).

 

I don't know about anybody else but to me you seem to be advocating a system that you cannot even offer up a successful model for or plainly does not actually exist, because as far as I can see the DOF model seems to end up with managers changing roughly every 2 years, which is the one thing that you are vehemently against, some have initial success but they quickly descend into a manager merry go round.

Emenalo at Chelsea.... Baldini at Spurs... Even Celtic are thinking of employing one.

 

Most of the Clubs in the country you live in and Europe and around the World have them...do you really want me to list them all. 

 

I've spoken about Lyon in various other threads before this one...it didn't need prompting. I use them, because 'their' model is probably the most widely spoken about and easily referenced.

 

Never mind...it's all good. It's just my preference...and obviously you prefer having a sole manager. We can agree to disagree :-)

[Red-Robbo]

Emenalo at Chelsea.... Baldini at Spurs... Even Celtic are thinking of employing one.

Most of the Clubs in the country you live in and Europe and around the World have them...do you really want me to list them all.

I've spoken about Lyon in various other threads before this one...it didn't need prompting. I use them, because 'their' model is probably the most widely spoken about and easily referenced.

Never mind...it's all good. It's just my preference...and obviously you prefer having a sole manager. We can agree to disagree :-)

But that's Es's point, Spud. Having DoFs at Chelsea and Spurs hasn't brought managerial security, nor necessarily much success - despite having the second and fifth highest budgets in the league.

Nothing wrong with having someone at the pinnacle of the scouting system, identifying targets, conducting negotiations, liaising with the board and generally taking some of the workload off the manager, but I can't believe any manager/head coach in the league would allow someone to be brought to their club that they don't want. It has to be a collaborative effort.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

Ever feel really happy to have not got involved in a thread 

[Major Isewater]