Rooney Past His Best?

[JamesBCFC]

Exactly this.

 

I can handle people not rating him etc IF they can have a reasoned debate on here with others to back it up. Sadly some can't even spell the word, let alone understand the meaning of it. It's a game of opinions but some on here about Rooney have been laughable. On his day Rooney is class but as you say, some think if a player isn't as good as Messi or Ronaldo then they are 'over rated' or 'rubbish'. We all know Rooney has not had a good tournament since 2004 and at major tournaments since for a variety of reasons he has not performed to an acceptable level. I find it amazing how people can claim he doesn't do it in the big games. His goal scoring record for England is very good and for years he has done the business for United. IF he doesn't perform then I think it's fair he should be dropped, as should any player who doesn't perform but for some to completely dismiss him like they have is ridiculous. 

 

Anyway, define 'over rated'? Over rated compared to what? Who? I hope he performs and this is the tournament for him, if not he should be dropped but he shouldn't be made a scape goat or be the victim of the standard tournament witch hunt.

I think he is over rated, that doesn't mean i don't think he's a great player, but I've heard many people call him world class which, in my opinion, he definitly isnt. As for him having a good goal scoring record for england, isnt that what you'd expect from a player who has been the focal point of our attack?

[Taylor10]

I think he is over rated, that doesn't mean i don't think he's a great player, but I've heard many people call him world class which, in my opinion, he definitly isnt. As for him having a good goal scoring record for england, isnt that what you'd expect from a player who has been the focal point of our attack?

I agree on the world class part. World class is Messi, Ronaldo etc and Rooney isn't as dynamic. He is a great player though. Over rated in what comparison though? You mean over rated as the media over hype him to be world class?

I would expect a decent contribution but he isn't a natural finisher as the likes of Shearer and Owen before him. He also has weighed in with plenty of assists. Room for improvement? Of course, but the way in which some dismiss him on here you would have thought he was like Emile Heskey!

[JamesBCFC]

I agree on the world class part. World class is Messi, Ronaldo etc and Rooney isn't as dynamic. He is a great player though. Over rated in what comparison though? You mean over rated as the media over hype him to be world class?

I would expect a decent contribution but he isn't a natural finisher as the likes of Shearer and Owen before him. He also has weighed in with plenty of assists. Room for improvement? Of course, but the way in which some dismiss him on here you would have thought he was like Emile Heskey!

Yes mainly by the media, but a lot of others suck up all of that as well, but then again the media tend to hype up everything to do with england, especially before a tournament.

Off topic but just going to say my thoughts that gerrard is also overrated/past his best. He's done a good job at liverpool over the years but for england i think he wastes the ball far too often

[BS4 on Tour...]

Hang on a minute, the guy is paid over a million pounds a month to play football.

I think that means we can demand a certain level of performance from him EVERY time he pulls on a Man U or England shirt.

Or can we say 'ah never mind Wayne, sorry you had a bad game, better luck next time' for 300k a week?!

[Rob k]

Hang on a minute, the guy is paid over a million pounds a month to play football.

I think that means we can demand a certain level of performance from him EVERY time he pulls on a Man U or England shirt.

Or can we say 'ah never mind Wayne, sorry you had a bad game, better luck next time' for 300k a week?!

Never had a bad day at work?

[Mad Cyril]

Never had a bad day at work?

Never had a good one....

[Taylor10]

Yes mainly by the media, but a lot of others suck up all of that as well, but then again the media tend to hype up everything to do with england, especially before a tournament.

Off topic but just going to say my thoughts that gerrard is also overrated/past his best. He's done a good job at liverpool over the years but for england i think he wastes the ball far too often

The media hype up anything. Some let the media help form their opinions rather than see or think things for themselves.

I actually agree on the Gerrard front. Even though he's often been the victim of formations and playing out of position because he was versatile, it think to an extent he's not been overly consistent for England. I rate him but feel he gets away with giving the ball away so cheaply at times because of who he is.

[AshtonGreat]

Even when Rooney has played poor for England, he's still been heads and shoulders above the rest of the team. He's the only world class player we have now that AC has retired.

Haha ridiculous

[SimonR]

Lampard in an England shirt has always been a waste in my opinion. every time he gets within 40 yards he shoots no matter who is in a better position or how many defenders are around to block. The whole Lampard/Gerrard thing should have been solved very easily by dropping him and playing Scholes with Gerrard. How come nobody is slating his selfish play and lack of team spirit in a white shirt. Dont get me wrong he is a different player in a chelski shirt, alert to team mates looking to play others in. just not when representing his country

[The Batman]

Lampard in an England shirt has always been a waste in my opinion. every time he gets within 40 yards he shoots no matter who is in a better position or how many defenders are around to block. The whole Lampard/Gerrard thing should have been solved very easily by dropping him and playing Scholes with Gerrard. How come nobody is slating his selfish play and lack of team spirit in a white shirt. Dont get me wrong he is a different player in a chelski shirt, alert to team mates looking to play others in. just not when representing his country

 

Hold on a minute.

 

Having Scholes in an England team, in Centre midfield. That's far too sensible.

[cider-manc]

Lampard in an England shirt has always been a waste in my opinion. every time he gets within 40 yards he shoots no matter who is in a better position or how many defenders are around to block. The whole Lampard/Gerrard thing should have been solved very easily by dropping him and playing Scholes with Gerrard. How come nobody is slating his selfish play and lack of team spirit in a white shirt. Dont get me wrong he is a different player in a chelski shirt, alert to team mates looking to play others in. just not when representing his country

Looking back you are totally correct. But at the time absolutely everyone was crying out for Gerrard to be moved intro the centre. Nobody with the exception of man u fans (who were simply sticking up for one of their own) thought that scholes/Gerrard or scholes/lampard was a better option (Que everyone swearing they always did).

As for fat frank being selfish... I've always wondered how many of his goals took deflections as he constantly shoots from anywhere. Having said that- as long as they go in... Who cares! England's fans player of the year at one point.

Another thing I would like to say. Yes Gerrard and lamps are no longer at their best- But those that question how good they were have selective memories. At the top of the their games they were easily two of the top midfielders in the world and could of comfortably walked into any team at the time.

[Manon]

Tonight's performance sums up my earlier comments.

Token crappy goal which increases his tally yet further.

But his was a 'nothing' performance in a nothing game. Again. World class players are allowed off games of course...but Rooney seems to have many more off games than decent games.

I would personally bench him. He adds nothing. His presence takes a shirt number away from someone else just because 'he is the one player we have who can do that something special and change a match in an instant'...or so countless england managers and players keep telling us, anyway. Well I'm still waiting. Been waiting eight years now.

[bend it like brian]

Tonight's performance sums up my earlier comments.

Token crappy goal which increases his tally yet further.

But his was a 'nothing' performance in a nothing game. Again. World class players are allowed off games of course...but Rooney seems to have many more off games than decent games.

I would personally bench him. He adds nothing. His presence takes a shirt number away from someone else just because 'he is the one player we have who can do that something special and change a match in an instant'...or so countless england managers and players keep telling us, anyway. Well I'm still waiting. Been waiting eight years now.

if you put a diamond in a bucket full on terds...........try and find it

[Rob k]

Tonight's performance sums up my earlier comments.

Token crappy goal which increases his tally yet further.

But his was a 'nothing' performance in a nothing game. Again. World class players are allowed off games of course...but Rooney seems to have many more off games than decent games.

I would personally bench him. He adds nothing. His presence takes a shirt number away from someone else just because 'he is the one player we have who can do that something special and change a match in an instant'...or so countless england managers and players keep telling us, anyway. Well I'm still waiting. Been waiting eight years now.

We don't need to worry about how were doing up top, we will get found out at the back this World Cup.

[Maltshoveller]

Hang on a minute, the guy is paid over a million pounds a month to play football.

I think that means we can demand a certain level of performance from him EVERY time he pulls on a Man U or England shirt.

Or can we say 'ah never mind Wayne, sorry you had a bad game, better luck next time' for 300k a week?!

The only people who can demand a performance from him are his employers

Pay his wages then demand

[Manon]

I'm more concerned about the middle. That's why the defence has to endure so much pressure. We can't keep the ball and everytime we lose it we are so exposed.

[The Batman]

We don't need to worry about how were doing up top, we will get found out at the back this World Cup.

 

That is what worries me.

Johnson - cannot defend, more of a wing back, but without the back. He has never been able to defend. And now he's playing for a club that does nothing but attack. When against more tactical astute teams, he will be found out.

Cahill - no problem here, excellent defender and Terry should be his partner at CB at this World Cup.

Jagielka - I personally don't rate him too highly, certainly not as highly as he is portrayed

Baines - I would have started him too, but only because Cole didn't play for Chelsea that often last year. Why was Kieran Gibbs not even considered? Can only presume injured.

 

As for the rest of the defenders. Jones is good, but Smalling is terrible. Just terrible. As said above, Terry should be at CB with Cahill. They only conceded 27 goals in the league last season. Granted it aint just down to them 2 but it's pretty important.

 

I think in Euro 2016, when these players (along with Stones, Flanagan, etc) are a bit older and wiser and more importantly, play more for their clubs, we could have a decent defence, but it's too soon now in my opinion.

[Murraysrightplum]

Tonight's performance sums up my earlier comments.

Token crappy goal which increases his tally yet further.

But his was a 'nothing' performance in a nothing game. Again. World class players are allowed off games of course...but Rooney seems to have many more off games than decent games.

I would personally bench him. He adds nothing. His presence takes a shirt number away from someone else just because 'he is the one player we have who can do that something special and change a match in an instant'...or so countless england managers and players keep telling us, anyway. Well I'm still waiting. Been waiting eight years now.

 

Agree. Build the team around Barkley, he's already better than Rooney IMO. Could be the new Gazza

[Rob k]

Agree. Build the team around Barkley, he's already better than Rooney IMO. Could be the new Gazza

Hahahaha!!! When Barkley has done as much as Rooney in the game then fair enough compare but not yet!!

The new Gazza?? Not to much pressure then!!

[Manon]

Just read hodgson's comments about barkley on bbc sport: 'he needs to make better decisions when he turns with the ball'.

Not really sure what he's playing at there tbh. I assume he's trying to protect him from over hype and the pressure that comes with it, but to criticize him publicly in his first start? And, yes, it was criticism Roy.

I just wish managers would stop their obsession with straight jacketing raw talent. Most players need regimented systems and instructions, but I believe those such as barkley are at their best when no one knows what they are going to do next...including their own team mates!

I believe this is what may have ruined rooney; he had all the spontaneity taken out of him. He was better following his own instincts - his brain was incapable of processing instructions...they melted his CPU.

[IdliketoRogerMoore]

Lampard in an England shirt has always been a waste in my opinion. every time he gets within 40 yards he shoots no matter who is in a better position or how many defenders are around to block. The whole Lampard/Gerrard thing should have been solved very easily by dropping him and playing Scholes with Gerrard. How come nobody is slating his selfish play and lack of team spirit in a white shirt. Dont get me wrong he is a different player in a chelski shirt, alert to team mates looking to play others in. just not when representing his country

the biggest mistake of the last 10 years was shunting Paul scholes out the the left wing to make way for lampard!

[Manon]

Very true.

[Harry]

I thought Rooney was poor again last night.  His first touch at the moment is awful, as is his decision making.

There's no denying the boy is talented, but at the moment (as in previous tournaments) he's terribly off form.  And when he's off form, he's pretty bad!

 

The first Ecuador goal last night, whilst being rank bad defending from a couple of players, actually emanated from Rooney's poor touch.  Shaw had played it up the line to Rooney, who mis-controlled it and gave it away.  They broke away, put the cross over which Milner failed to clear properly and the goal against resulted!

 

There were numerous times again last night when his poor touch gave the ball away.  There were also numerous times where he tried little dummies or flicks, even that scoop at one point, when he should have just been playing the basics and getting hold of the ball.  His decision making is poor as I think he's trying too hard to do something and prove he's in nick.

 

I don't think Roy has any choice but to play him v Italy.  He might even get a game v Uruguay.  But if he performs poorly in those 2 games as well, then Roy can justifiably drop him.  Right now, if he drops him, there'll probably be an outcry and Roy will be blamed for our failure due to his non-selection.  It's easier (although perhaps less courageous) for Roy to start Rooney and drop him later on if he's not getting his touch back.

[Maltshoveller]

Agree. Build the team around Barkley, he's already better than Rooney IMO. Could be the new Gazza

Hope is isnt the next Gazza

Hope he goes on and makes the best of this talent

[The Bard]

Just read hodgson's comments about barkley on bbc sport: 'he needs to make better decisions when he turns with the ball'.

Not really sure what he's playing at there tbh. I assume he's trying to protect him from over hype and the pressure that comes with it, but to criticize him publicly in his first start? And, yes, it was criticism Roy.

I just wish managers would stop their obsession with straight jacketing raw talent. Most players need regimented systems and instructions, but I believe those such as barkley are at their best when no one knows what they are going to do next...including their own team mates!

I believe this is what may have ruined rooney; he had all the spontaneity taken out of him. He was better following his own instincts - his brain was incapable of processing instructions...they melted his CPU.

 

Sorry but you completely miss the point.  Barkley is a very promising player.  However, his way of playing involves massive risk taking.  A lot of the time he gets it horribly wrong and puts his team in the s**t.   Martinez regularly subbed him off at half time last season when he was having a bad game.  He is a 15 minute sub at best at the moment.  The idea that the side should be built around him now is ridiculous.  He needs to grow and develop as a player before that - he can't play as a normal central midfielder.  If we want a number 10 it should be Lallana - he plays there for Southampton and understands the responsibilities it involves.

 

I hope Barkley is the next Gazza as Gazza was a proper world class footballer. However, I suspect that Barkley will only reach a level below that which would be good as it would still make him a quality international footballer.

[The Bard]

I thought Rooney was poor again last night.  His first touch at the moment is awful, as is his decision making.

There's no denying the boy is talented, but at the moment (as in previous tournaments) he's terribly off form.  And when he's off form, he's pretty bad!

 

The first Ecuador goal last night, whilst being rank bad defending from a couple of players, actually emanated from Rooney's poor touch.  Shaw had played it up the line to Rooney, who mis-controlled it and gave it away.  They broke away, put the cross over which Milner failed to clear properly and the goal against resulted!

 

There were numerous times again last night when his poor touch gave the ball away.  There were also numerous times where he tried little dummies or flicks, even that scoop at one point, when he should have just been playing the basics and getting hold of the ball.  His decision making is poor as I think he's trying too hard to do something and prove he's in nick.

 

I don't think Roy has any choice but to play him v Italy.  He might even get a game v Uruguay.  But if he performs poorly in those 2 games as well, then Roy can justifiably drop him.  Right now, if he drops him, there'll probably be an outcry and Roy will be blamed for our failure due to his non-selection.  It's easier (although perhaps less courageous) for Roy to start Rooney and drop him later on if he's not getting his touch back.

 

Roy has a choice. I suspect he'll pick him as you do.  Based on what we've seen so far it will be a massive risk as he is looking out of sorts and in need of a jolt.  That will only come from being dropped.  

 

I'd play Sterling, Lallana and Welbeck behind Sturridge Vs Italy.  Pace, skill and power allied to Sturridge's clinical finishing.  Rooney seems to get in the way more than anything else at present.

[The Bard]

Not one of those three players have any major international tournament experience, Lallana looked no better than Rooney the other night and hasn't had as good a season as Rooney although his was very good also so why are you not criticizing him? 

 

Not to mention the fact your judging this on the first friendly against Peru where the whole team were really nothing special, apart from the goal no England player looked particularly amazing in open play, two goals were from defenders at set pieces. And also considering the quality of the opposition, the defence was pretty dire as well, Peru should've scored a fair few times and any higher class opposition would've punished us!

 

Rooney is the best player in the squad in the position he plays, Barkley has the potential to become one of the best in that position, we should start with Rooney and bring on Barkley later on to stretch the opposition defence.

 

For me despite his goal I would say Jagielka is the weakest link in the team, I would love to see someone younger and a bit more talented given the chance rather than a 31 year old who has only just come on the international scene the last couple of years.

 

Sorry but I have to respond.

 

Lallana influenced the game against Peru.  Rooney didn't. We had 2 chances in the first half, both came to Sturridge.  First from a direct run from Lallana into the box in the heart of their defence that Sturridge shot narrowly wide with his right foot.  Secondly there was the goal.  Fantastic finish from Sturridge but he would not have scored had Lallana not made a run into the box thereby taking a defender with him.  Sturridge scored from more or less the spot that the defender who tracked Lallana was stood in.  Lallana's intelligence gave Sturridge the half chance he needed.  Those 2 are our key creative relationship.

[The dastardly red]

Hang on a minute, the guy is paid over a million pounds a month to play football.

I think that means we can demand a certain level of performance from him EVERY time he pulls on a Man U or England shirt.

Or can we say 'ah never mind Wayne, sorry you had a bad game, better luck next time' for 300k a week?!

you say that like he chooses to have bad performances, I don't think that's something you can level at Rooney or the majority of footballers for that matter but especially Rooney, he's an emotional/confidence player and will always be blowing hot/cold depending on what's in his head. Whilst the amount of money paid in transfers and wages is clearly ridiculous it always annoys me when someone gets all high horsey and starts banging on about "ooo if it was me in my job and I didn't perform etc etc" football's completely different and you know it is

[Manon]

Sorry but you completely miss the point. Barkley is a very promising player. However, his way of playing involves massive risk taking. A lot of the time he gets it horribly wrong and puts his team in the s**t. Martinez regularly subbed him off at half time last season when he was having a bad game. He is a 15 minute sub at best at the moment. The idea that the side should be built around him now is ridiculous. He needs to grow and develop as a player before that - he can't play as a normal central midfielder. If we want a number 10 it should be Lallana - he plays there for Southampton and understands the responsibilities it involves.

I hope Barkley is the next Gazza as Gazza was a proper world class footballer. However, I suspect that Barkley will only reach a level below that which would be good as it would still make him a quality international footballer.

Completely miss what point? I'm think you're missing mine.

I certainly dont suggest that we should be building the team around him, not for this tournament anyway. I'm not even saying he should make the first eleven.

I just thought it was a strange thing for Roy to be publicly criticizing him do early in his international career.

Like I said, perhaps it was actually Roy's way of trying to protect him, by playing him down but I think he went about it poorly.

[Manon]

Here, this article echoes my feelings nicely.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/worldcup2014/article-2649869/Roberto-Martinez-responds-Roy-Hodgson-criticism-hailing-brilliant-Ross-Barkley.html