Suarez Second Goal

[Cunnyfunt]

How is it  lack of Communication from Gerrard? I agree he was poor last night but absolutely no blame on his part for that goal.

If he's put his name on the ball, he needs a better header than the one hes made.

[Eddie Hitler]

We all moaned when we had Cole-Ferdinand-Terry-Neville as our back four, what would we do to have those playing now

 

Excuse me!  I was very happy with Cole Ferdinand Terry.

 

Maybe not as convinced by Neville.

[Always Believesham]

Just going to throw it out there.... Gerrard had a higher forward pass completion rate than any other England player against Italy. which is what his position requires him to do... collect the ball off the defence and get the team moving forward.

 

Thought we have been unlucky to lose both games but we brought it on ourselves with poor defending. (Gerrard, Jagielka and Johnson had nightmares last night.)

 

I also thought that Rooney played quite well last night- He had poor moments but was overall our best player. However I think it may have been at the cost of the sort of performance we were hoping would continue after the Italy game.

 

The problem with Johnson is he is so useful going forward but so ####### tragic when defending; a twitter post I saw said, for everything he does right, he does at least 2 things wrong OWTTE and I agree totally - he consistently dives in and gets beaten, he gets forward and takes down a cross field ball and 4/5 times looses the ball after he's done the hard bit.

 

Having said all that, he was one of our most useful outlets going forward in the first half

 

 

How is it  lack of Communication from Gerrard? I agree he was poor last night but absolutely no blame on his part for that goal.

 

He should have read the ball better, he got caught under the ball - in that area of the pitch, unless you can get the ball out DO NOT HEAD IT! A weak header that goes backwards pretty much eliminates the need to control the ball for the striker. Gerrard was at least partly culpible for both goals last night.

 

 

Without Gerrard, Cahill, Hart and Rooney (the spine of the team) we go to pieces completely after we go 1-0 down; you need experience in there and with their premier league experience, I'd throw Cahill & Hart into the list of "needs". Unfortunately 2 of these players haven't been at the races for both games - Cahill, albeit unfortunately, has found himself at the heart of a big issue alongside Jagielka and hasn't quite got the experience to deal with it.

[Super]

The problem with Johnson is he is so useful going forward but so ####### tragic when defending; a twitter post I saw said, for everything he does right, he does at least 2 things wrong OWTTE and I agree totally - he consistently dives in and gets beaten, he gets forward and takes down a cross field ball and 4/5 times looses the ball after he's done the hard bit.

 

Having said all that, he was one of our most useful outlets going forward in the first half

 

 

 

He should have read the ball better, he got caught under the ball - in that area of the pitch, unless you can get the ball out DO NOT HEAD IT! A weak header that goes backwards pretty much eliminates the need to control the ball for the striker. Gerrard was at least partly culpible for both goals last night.

 

 

Without Gerrard, Cahill, Hart and Rooney (the spine of the team) we go to pieces completely after we go 1-0 down; you need experience in there and with their premier league experience, I'd throw Cahill & Hart into the list of "needs". Unfortunately 2 of these players haven't been at the races for both games - Cahill, albeit unfortunately, has found himself at the heart of a big issue alongside Jagielka and hasn't quite got the experience to deal with it.

 

Jagielka should call for it and either deal with it or anticipate danger and drop off. I played CB not at a great level but that is basic stuff.

[Always Believesham]

Jagielka should call for it and either deal with it or anticipate danger and drop off. I played CB not at a great level but that is basic stuff.

 

I agree Jagielka should have called for it - but in the absence of a call; Gerrard's 34 and has been playing at the top level for years, he should know a) whether he is going to get a clearing header in and b) if he isn't going to make a firm contact, how dangerous this would be

 

It's fair to say the second goal was the pinnacle of the downfall of English football; including Suarez. He highlights the fact that we haven't been able to produce players good enough to compete with other foreign 'stars' for decades never mind years.

[wayne allisons tongues]

If gerrard doesn't head it and cavani does instead, I think Suarez is offside. Cahill played offside for rest of defence was up the pitch.

He was just unlucky that gerrard headed it, Jagielka was the problem in no mans land.

I also think apart from Cahill hart Rooney welbeck, none of that team have played champs league for years if at all.

Just that little bit naive, when Godin forearm smashed Sturridge would any of our players done that apart from say Rooney. We haven't that nasty streak in our team and it needs to be taught to them, a win at all cost policy.

[Super]

If gerrard doesn't head it and cavani does instead, I think Suarez is offside. Cahill played offside for rest of defence was up the pitch.

He was just unlucky that gerrard headed it, Jagielka was the problem in no mans land.

I also think apart from Cahill hart Rooney welbeck, none of that team have played champs league for years if at all.

Just that little bit naive, when Godin forearm smashed Sturridge would any of our players done that apart from say Rooney. We haven't that nasty streak in our team and it needs to be taught to them, a win at all cost policy.

 

Strange to say that Sturridge's reaction or lack of kept Godin on the pitch. Had he rolled around he would of gone without doubt.

[Big Red Rich]

Because the ball was struck right at him, and he moved to the left to let it past him.

 

Yes all very high speed etc but stand tall and it might just hit you and not go in the net.

That's hilarious, almost as good as the thread in the classics "basso isn't a decent keeper as he's just in the right place at the right time so the ball just hits him"....

As a keeper you set yourself in a position that allows you to cover all angles, what happens if Suarez rolls it in the corner? If hart is standing tall there is no way you can get down that quickly. You play to the percentages rather than covering the one eventuality which is what you are suggesting.....

[I BELIEVE]

^{Am I the only one who think it's incredible centre forward play from Suarez to anticipate the error? No other striker in the world would stand 5 yards offside in the hope it goes all the way through. Yes it's horrific defending all-round, but credit where credits' due to the best player on the pitch who was only 50% fit.}

[Super]

^{Am I the only one who think it's incredible centre forward play from Suarez to anticipate the error? No other striker in the world would stand 5 yards offside in the hope it goes all the way through. Yes it's horrific defending all-round, but credit where credits' due to the best player on the pitch who was only 50% fit.}

 

Even the header was fantastic. Almost inevitable he would do it after Hodgson's moronic comment about him not being World Class, maybe he thought he wouldn't play.

[chipdawg]

^{Am I the only one who think it's incredible centre forward play from Suarez to anticipate the error? No other striker in the world would stand 5 yards offside in the hope it goes all the way through. Yes it's horrific defending all-round, but credit where credits' due to the best player on the pitch who was only 50% fit.}

Quite. Suarez did **** all for much of the match (other than shoot from corners) but the two things he did were world class. Hate the bloke

Still, the fact remains that if England hadn't defended like school boys, we'd be heading into Tuesday's game with at least 1 point and a better than 50/50 chance of qualifying

[Super]

Quite. Suarez did **** all for much of the match (other than shoot from corners) but the two things he did were world class. Hate the bloke

Still, the fact remains that if England hadn't defended like school boys, we'd be heading into Tuesday's game with at least 1 point and a better than 50/50 chance of qualifying

 

I had actually forgot about that! He nearly scored twice have no idea why nobody was on that post!

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

Quite. Suarez did **** all for much of the match (other than shoot from corners) but the two things he did were world class. Hate the bloke

Still, the fact remains that if England hadn't defended like school boys, we'd be heading into Tuesday's game with at least 1 point and a better than 50/50 chance of qualifying

 

And there in lies the difference between a World Class striker like Suarez and Englands best...

 

For all the huff and puff, England are simply not good enough on the world stage.

[sodburyred]

I think Gerard's age is just catching up on him. Some players, Pirlo for example  can keep going well into there 30's but in Gerards case his game is mostly about him being all action all over the pitch much like our own Marv once he looses that he's a shadow of the player he was. Of course I'm sure Gerard of 5 years ago would still have struggled in front of that defence. 

[petehinton]

if we had Cahill and Terry at centre half last night, we wouldnt have lost. Jagielka's positioning for both is embarrasing. Cahill deserves a knighthood for covering up his mess for the majority of the game!!

[Taylor10]

There surely isn't a debate to be had? Defensively awful. Gerrard can't be blamed for the second goal but was largely at fault for the first. Not sure what Jagielka was doing but Cahill was asleep which is unlike him. Cahill has held the back 4 together over the two games. Unfortunately we just aren't good enough and certainly not good enough defensively.

 

Let's face the facts. The way in which many have dismissed Ashley Cole before the squad was announced was embarrassing and to be honest typical of English football. Many people let their opinion of Cole as a person guide their opinion of him as a player. Arguably the best left back the country has ever had yet so many were screaming for Baines. The same Leighton Baines who at nearly 30 years old hasn't played at a major tournament or even at Champions league. He may look good on match of the day every Saturday night after a few good free kicks but defensively he is absolutely woeful. After all is a left back not there to defend? I get that he has had a good season but he was never going to play like he does for Everton on the international stage. Completely different game and with the humidity it was always a big ask. I think some have been a little naive with this one. If people genuinely think he is better than Cole that's fair enough, I can accept that but people were speaking about Cole as if he had never played well for England or a lot of his caps were lucky. Crazy talk.

 

Much the same of Jagielka I'm afraid. Why as a nation do we persevere with players like him? He is 32 years old. Never played Champs league or at a tournament. I appreciate not every player can play in the Champions league regularly but it's almost as though in typical English style because he is quite 'gutsy' he is drastically over hyped or considered a 'good pro' when in actual fact he just isn't good enough. The type of player usually rated by lazy journalists because he's a nice guy and honest pro. This one annoys me more than anything because it's pointless taking him. Harsh I know but surely the point of taking an experienced player is because they have relevant experience!? (John Terry). Jagielka isn't going to be around in the next Euros or World Cup. It wasn't even difficult to work out that our defence would be a large part of why we weren't going to go anywhere.

 

Too many players over hyped by the English media and fans that just aren't good enough. Henderson, Glen Johnson, Baines, Jagielka, all not good enough for international football. The likes of Gerrard (who has done very very little in an England shirt since we beat Germany 5-1 but get's away with it) Lampard etc also have to go now. How Glen Johnson has been our right back at the last three tournaments I will never know. That in itself says a lot about English football. If he's the best we've got then it's no wonder we aren't going anywhere fast.

[dezgimed]

That's hilarious, almost as good as the thread in the classics "basso isn't a decent keeper as he's just in the right place at the right time so the ball just hits him"....

As a keeper you set yourself in a position that allows you to cover all angles, what happens if Suarez rolls it in the corner? If hart is standing tall there is no way you can get down that quickly. You play to the percentages rather than covering the one eventuality which is what you are suggesting.....

 

Well sorry to disagree with our resident goalkeeping pro. How many professional games have you played?

 

My opinion just as valid as yours unfortunately.

[UK0wnag3]

Just going to throw it out there.... Gerrard had a higher forward pass completion rate than any other England player against Italy.

After the Italy game, England actually led the tournament in pass completion percentage in the oppositions half.

But defensively, how many times did Pirlo get granted the space of the park. Gerrard should have snapped him early doors to let him know he was there.

[HoldenBall]

You may have but I and others certainly never.

More mentioning the media, not individuals fans

[samo II]

After the Italy game, England actually led the tournament in pass completion percentage in the oppositions half.

But defensively, how many times did Pirlo get granted the space of the park. Gerrard should have snapped him early doors to let him know he was there.

This is it; yes, great, Gerrard is getting the ball out of the back.  No complaints.  

 

But that is all he's doing, and really he should be focused on breaking up play, and leaving the (unfortunately pretty anonymous yesterday) Henderson dropping in and bringing it out.  

 

That simply didn't happen, and despite Gerrard's multitude of positive attributes, being a 'destroyer of play' isn't one of them.

 

It pains me to say it, but yesterday was crying out for less class, more David Batty...

[Eddie Hitler]

This is it; yes, great, Gerrard is getting the ball out of the back.  No complaints.  

 

But that is all he's doing, and really he should be focused on breaking up play, and leaving the (unfortunately pretty anonymous yesterday) Henderson dropping in and bringing it out.  

 

That simply didn't happen, and despite Gerrard's multitude of positive attributes, being a 'destroyer of play' isn't one of them.

 

It pains me to say it, but yesterday was crying out for less class, more David Batty...

 

[The Batman]

if we had Cahill and Terry at centre half last night, we wouldnt have lost. Jagielka's positioning for both is embarrasing. Cahill deserves a knighthood for covering up his mess for the majority of the game!!

 

That's far too sensible a post for OTIB.

 

I said something similar on the world cup thread and got shot down good and proper. (granted I had a fair few ciders and whisky's while typing but it made sense to me)

 

You'd think that Jagielka and Baines would be used to playing with one another so the communication between them should be second to none, both have been poor, not just in the WC but the friendlies before.

 

Typical England though, have something good and not utilising it properly. The FA have a lot to answer for with regards to the retirement of John Terry. I don't think we would have lost the Italy game with Terry and Cahill either. England's defence for both goals in both games would have been properly organised. It aint just the tackling and the heading, it's the way in which you defend the line, and be in the correct position at all times. I keep saying it but people don't acknowledge it, Chelsea only conceded 27 league goals last year, Cahill played 30 league games and Terry played in 34.

 

What I'd give for England to have another Tony Adams in the midst.

[wayne allisons tongues]

Strange to say that Sturridge's reaction or lack of kept Godin on the pitch. Had he rolled around he would of gone without doubt.

I ment, would any of our players did what Godin did. Who in our squad is prepared to bend the rules or push them to the limit and sacrifice themselves for the team.

The nasty side we seem to lack.

[Cunnyfunt]

I think Gerard's age is just catching up on him. Some players, Pirlo for example can keep going well into there 30's but in Gerards case his game is mostly about him being all action all over the pitch much like our own Marv once he looses that he's a shadow of the player he was. Of course I'm sure Gerard of 5 years ago would still have struggled in front of that defence.

I think it may show what a limited player Gerrard is? Scholes for example adapted to the 'Pirlo role' with ease during the end of his playing days. Gerrard without his dynamic style looks lost.

[InCider]

Lots of comments in different threads about how Gerrard is past it. Wasn't great for England, but was great for Liverpool all season. Was nominated for both footballer of the year awards!

[Red-Robbo]

There surely isn't a debate to be had? Defensively awful. Gerrard can't be blamed for the second goal but was largely at fault for the first. Not sure what Jagielka was doing but Cahill was asleep which is unlike him. Cahill has held the back 4 together over the two games. Unfortunately we just aren't good enough and certainly not good enough defensively.

Let's face the facts. The way in which many have dismissed Ashley Cole before the squad was announced was embarrassing and to be honest typical of English football. Many people let their opinion of Cole as a person guide their opinion of him as a player. Arguably the best left back the country has ever had yet so many were screaming for Baines. The same Leighton Baines who at nearly 30 years old hasn't played at a major tournament or even at Champions league. He may look good on match of the day every Saturday night after a few good free kicks but defensively he is absolutely woeful. After all is a left back not there to defend? I get that he has had a good season but he was never going to play like he does for Everton on the international stage. Completely different game and with the humidity it was always a big ask. I think some have been a little naive with this one. If people genuinely think he is better than Cole that's fair enough, I can accept that but people were speaking about Cole as if he had never played well for England or a lot of his caps were lucky. Crazy talk.

Much the same of Jagielka I'm afraid. Why as a nation do we persevere with players like him? He is 32 years old. Never played Champs league or at a tournament. I appreciate not every player can play in the Champions league regularly but it's almost as though in typical English style because he is quite 'gutsy' he is drastically over hyped or considered a 'good pro' when in actual fact he just isn't good enough. The type of player usually rated by lazy journalists because he's a nice guy and honest pro. This one annoys me more than anything because it's pointless taking him. Harsh I know but surely the point of taking an experienced player is because they have relevant experience!? (John Terry). Jagielka isn't going to be around in the next Euros or World Cup. It wasn't even difficult to work out that our defence would be a large part of why we weren't going to go anywhere.

Too many players over hyped by the English media and fans that just aren't good enough. Henderson, Glen Johnson, Baines, Jagielka, all not good enough for international football. The likes of Gerrard (who has done very very little in an England shirt since we beat Germany 5-1 but get's away with it) Lampard etc also have to go now. How Glen Johnson has been our right back at the last three tournaments I will never know. That in itself says a lot about English football. If he's the best we've got then it's no wonder we aren't going anywhere fast.

Of course Gerrard can be blamed for the second goal!

If you see a long-kick coming either get out the way and let it go for a goal kick or get under it and head it forwards.

His deft flick on for Suarez to collect was a move any Uruguayan would be proud of.

Yes, the back two were asleep but don't absolve the man who dropped them in the shit

[Super]

Of course Gerrard can be blamed for the second goal!

If you see a long-kick coming either get out the way and let it go for a goal kick or get under it and head it forwards.

His deft flick on for Suarez to collect was a move any Uruguayan would be proud of.

Yes, the back two were asleep but don't absolve the man who dropped them in the shit

You obviously have never played the game.

[Super]

I think it may show what a limited player Gerrard is? Scholes for example adapted to the 'Pirlo role' with ease during the end of his playing days. Gerrard without his dynamic style looks lost.

Yet Scholes was poor for England.

[Kid in the Riot]

There surely isn't a debate to be had? Defensively awful. Gerrard can't be blamed for the second goal but was largely at fault for the first. Not sure what Jagielka was doing but Cahill was asleep which is unlike him. Cahill has held the back 4 together over the two games. Unfortunately we just aren't good enough and certainly not good enough defensively.

 

Let's face the facts. The way in which many have dismissed Ashley Cole before the squad was announced was embarrassing and to be honest typical of English football. Many people let their opinion of Cole as a person guide their opinion of him as a player. Arguably the best left back the country has ever had yet so many were screaming for Baines. The same Leighton Baines who at nearly 30 years old hasn't played at a major tournament or even at Champions league. He may look good on match of the day every Saturday night after a few good free kicks but defensively he is absolutely woeful. After all is a left back not there to defend? I get that he has had a good season but he was never going to play like he does for Everton on the international stage. Completely different game and with the humidity it was always a big ask. I think some have been a little naive with this one. If people genuinely think he is better than Cole that's fair enough, I can accept that but people were speaking about Cole as if he had never played well for England or a lot of his caps were lucky. Crazy talk.

 

Much the same of Jagielka I'm afraid. Why as a nation do we persevere with players like him? He is 32 years old. Never played Champs league or at a tournament. I appreciate not every player can play in the Champions league regularly but it's almost as though in typical English style because he is quite 'gutsy' he is drastically over hyped or considered a 'good pro' when in actual fact he just isn't good enough. The type of player usually rated by lazy journalists because he's a nice guy and honest pro. This one annoys me more than anything because it's pointless taking him. Harsh I know but surely the point of taking an experienced player is because they have relevant experience!? (John Terry). Jagielka isn't going to be around in the next Euros or World Cup. It wasn't even difficult to work out that our defence would be a large part of why we weren't going to go anywhere.

 

Too many players over hyped by the English media and fans that just aren't good enough. Henderson, Glen Johnson, Baines, Jagielka, all not good enough for international football. The likes of Gerrard (who has done very very little in an England shirt since we beat Germany 5-1 but get's away with it) Lampard etc also have to go now. How Glen Johnson has been our right back at the last three tournaments I will never know. That in itself says a lot about English football. If he's the best we've got then it's no wonder we aren't going anywhere fast.

 

So what if Jagielka hasn't played Champs League football? In 2008 most of our squad was playing Champs League football and we didn't qualify for the Euros! How many of the Uruguay, Costa Rica players play Champs League? It's a non-argument. What were the other options? John Terry? Do you remember his abysmal display v Germany in South Africa? The bloke is shot at international level. We just don't have many quality CBs at the moment...that's the way it goes. We have some good quality attacking players so Hodgson tried to play to our strengths.

 

People are blaming the defence but the selection of Henderson and Gerrard as DM's was flawed from the start - Liverpool conceded over 50 goals last season, did Gerrard really have a great season for them? No. Without Suarez Liverpool would've finished 5th-7th.

 

You're saying Gerrard and Lampard have to go yet suggesting we should've brought Terry and Cole? Sorry mate but that's hypocritical and you are simply relying on hindsight...

 

Interesting that those close to Hodgson are suggesting the media played a role in him ditching his usual conservative approach in favour of a more attacking line-up. It's led by the fans of course and Hodgson would've known the groans he'd of got for picking Milner but again with hindsight that's probably what he should've done...

 

The margins are so fine and I think we've been unlucky to lose both games. Last night that Godin should've been sent off, if the cross to Rooney is 2 inches lower he scores...ultimately the difference was Suarez who is a top 3 in the world player.

[Red-Robbo]

You obviously have never played the game.

You obviously have not a clue about me (or football) judging from that comment.