Negative Mindset/substitutions

[Fordy62]

Cotterill out.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

To be honest, I think a lot is being misunderstood on this thread.

Nothing is taken as a given, and we all know we have had a good start.

 

However...some, and the manager have acknowledged that in the last 3-4 games we have conceded goals whilst playing differently to how we got in front in the first place. We have sat back and let teams come at us.

SC has said he doesn't know why it has happened.

So in saying that, it must be a concern to him why his players revert to letting teams come at them, instead of playing the way they did when they got in front. If he is not in control and able to change things on the pitch to negate that pressure...then that has to be a worry.

It's a negative side to our game that is creeping in...we've got away with it for now, but if it is ignored now, and results start to change then all our good work will have gone to waste.

It's no point ignoring it and sticking our head in the sand hoping it will go away, just because results have been positive.

I do see it as points dropped, rather than won, as we have been in winning positions and lost it...we haven't fought back to draw.

It has to be nipped in the bud now...or it will grow and be harder to stop.

 

Our real test will come, when we are losing and maybe two down.

 

I've yet to witness us change the way we play under instruction.

 

SC has said, that he has hoped in games that the players will click again during a game and that it will all come good.

 

Well the time will come when you can't rely on 'hope' and as a manager you have to make change and get the players to do things differently on the park to negate the opposition.

 

I've not witnessed that yet.

 

This is not being negative...but being pro active...be ready before hand... not reactionary.

 

Long may our run continue...but lets do it in control.

 

Here's another angle, scoring first and then conceding was a problem a year ago, Rome wasn't built in a day, so it's just yet another problem/mindset that SC inherited and little by little these problems are being sorted out, like winning, having a better functioning defence so conceding less goals and having a plus GD for change, going on unbeaten runs instead of unwinning runs and did I mention winning?.

 

I would also like to point out the small matter of winning twice so far this season having conceded the first goal, or doesn't that count as changing things?.

 

The most telling sentence of yours is the grudging mention of a 'good start', given where we are now from the despair of 12 months ago and even from 5 years ago and the speed at which it has happened, I would say 'unbelievable' is a more accurate description.

[Kid in the Riot]

What I'm puzzled by is that SC admitted after the game that we looked different in the second half, that we were sitting back etc.

 

So why didn't he change anything?

 

It was clear for all to see that Walsall had worked us out, were pushing us back and that Elliott and Wilbraham were exhausted - so why didn't he freshen things up? Most managers would kill to have a bench as strong as we do.

 

The only conclusion I can come to is that he knew the risks of not making a change ie tiredness but wasn't too fussed if we did eventually concede as he was happy with a point.

[spudski]

Here's another angle, scoring first and then conceding was a problem a year ago, Rome wasn't built in a day, so it's just yet another problem/mindset that SC inherited and little by little these problems are being sorted out, like winning, having a better functioning defence so conceding less goals and having a plus GD for change, going on unbeaten runs instead of unwinning runs and did I mention winning?.

 

I would also like to point out the small matter of winning twice so far this season having conceded the first goal, or doesn't that count as changing things?.

 

The most telling sentence of yours is the grudging mention of a 'good start', given where we are now from the despair of 12 months ago and even from 5 years ago and the speed at which it has happened, I would say 'unbelievable' is a more accurate description.

I am at despair with you sometimes fella...as you seem to want to make an argument where it's not necessary.

You also seem to want to put forum members in box's of those pro SC or not.

 

My 'good start' mention is not grudgingly said at all. I want SC or any manager who is in control of City to do well...for the good of the Club.

 

I don't give a toss of what has gone on before now...it's in the past...we learn from it and move on.

 

The majority of players SC has playing, don't have to learn a new mind set, as the majority of them were brought in by SC from other Clubs...and we've had a winning mind set for pretty much all this year.

 

There is nothing wrong in talking about tactics and why we are conceding goals in the second half. Something that even SC has acknowledged.

 

So instead of trying to put people in box's and realise there are no agendas, and that we all want what's best for the Club...try talking about football...the pros and cons of our play.

 

Unfortunately because you don't actually go to watch games, you can only judge on what's said on here and by results.

You don't ever get to see the bigger picture and traits starting on the field and at the Club.

[Robin1988]

This 'doesn't know' quote is a little naive. Of course he knows. It's no secret SC's public face and internal face differ greatly.

[Major Isewater]

This 'doesn't know' quote is a little naive. Of course he knows. It's no secret SC's public face and internal face differ greatly.

So your saying Cotterill is two faced ?

Another anti - Cotterill supporter !!!

[spudski]

This 'doesn't know' quote is a little naive. Of course he knows. It's no secret SC's public face and internal face differ greatly.

Maybe he does...maybe he doesn't.

 

If he doesn't know...then I'd worry.

If he does know why...then he needs to nip it in the bud now.

 

He said he didn't instruct the players to sit back against Dons. He then said he didn't know why they did.

I sat right next to him at that game, and didn't hear him once try to give instruction to his players on the field second half.

Pembo was trying to get him to react.

He looked deep in thought, often like a rabbit in headlights.

Elliott scored the winner and he looked a very relieved man.

 

I've only seen us play one way so far. It's worked and we're top of the league.

 

But anyone watching the last four games will tell you we have been outplayed for much of the second half in those games.

 

If SC doesn't sort this trait...then all our early hard work will come to nothing.

 

Constructive criticism...nothing against SC...just an obvious observation from the games.

[Alex_BCFC]

But anyone watching the last four games will tell you we have been outplayed for much of the second half in those games.

Do you mean last three as we definitely weren't outplayed for much if any of the Port Vale game.

 

I didn't go to Fleetwood but the last 2 I agree with.

[Robin1988]

So your saying Cotterill is two faced ?

Another anti - Cotterill supporter !!!

Haha. I like him and he's not as stupid as he sometimes sounds.

[spudski]

Do you mean last three as we definitely weren't outplayed for much if any of the Port Vale game.

 

I didn't go to Fleetwood but the last 2 I agree with.

Yes...my mistake...Fleetwood, Dons and Walsall.

[Robin1988]

When were we outplayed at Fleetwood? They were certainly in the game for the last 20 minutes, but they had two decent shots, both went in.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I am at despair with you sometimes fella...as you seem to want to make an argument where it's not necessary.

You also seem to want to put forum members in box's of those pro SC or not.

 

My 'good start' mention is not grudgingly said at all. I want SC or any manager who is in control of City to do well...for the good of the Club.

 

I don't give a toss of what has gone on before now...it's in the past...we learn from it and move on.

 

The majority of players SC has playing, don't have to learn a new mind set, as the majority of them were brought in by SC from other Clubs...and we've had a winning mind set for pretty much all this year.

 

There is nothing wrong in talking about tactics and why we are conceding goals in the second half. Something that even SC has acknowledged.

 

So instead of trying to put people in box's and realise there are no agendas, and that we all want what's best for the Club...try talking about football...the pros and cons of our play.

 

Unfortunately because you don't actually go to watch games, you can only judge on what's said on here and by results.

You don't ever get to see the bigger picture and traits starting on the field and at the Club.

 

You despair at me for defending the manager?, something you were pretty good at as I recall.

 

You said "Our real test will come, when we are losing and maybe two down", as I pointed out we have been losing twice and turned it around to win, so we have an idea what might happen.

 

The lateness in the use of subs again is a bit of another historic theme occurring throughout the past 5 years, all the managers have been guilty of it, in fact I cannot recall the last time a substitution actually transformed a game for us during that period, apart from funnily enough the introduction of Cunningham v S****horpe earlier this season to secure a tight match.

 

I make no secret of the fact that I am unable to attend games, but I never judge from what I read or hear, but you are correct I judge on results, pretty much the only yardstick that a manager is judged on and as you correctly pointed out a couple of weeks ago statistically one day SC's results will be judged as not good enough and he will become part of BCFC's history, I also judge on goals we concede to see where perhaps where the goal could have been prevented, I am well aware this doesn't give me the whole picture so I don't and have never commented on specifics of games.

[spudski]

You despair at me for defending the manager?, something you were pretty good at as I recall.

 

You said "Our real test will come, when we are losing and maybe two down", as I pointed out we have been losing twice and turned it around to win, so we have an idea what might happen.

 

The lateness in the use of subs again is a bit of another historic theme occurring throughout the past 5 years, all the managers have been guilty of it, in fact I cannot recall the last time a substitution actually transformed a game for us during that period, apart from funnily enough the introduction of Cunningham v S****horpe earlier this season to secure a tight match.

 

I make no secret of the fact that I am unable to attend games, but I never judge from what I read or hear, but you are correct I judge on results, pretty much the only yardstick that a manager is judged on and as you correctly pointed out a couple of weeks ago statistically one day SC's results will be judged as not good enough and he will become part of BCFC's history, I also judge on goals we concede to see where perhaps where the goal could have been prevented, I am well aware this doesn't give me the whole picture so I don't and have never commented on specifics of games.

What are you defending the manager from...constructive criticism or blind faith?

Like I've said twice now...SC has said he wasn't happy with the way we let teams come at us and the way we changed our play and stopped playing as he had instructed.

Obviously from those comments he knows there is a problem that needs to be worked on.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

What are you defending the manager from...constructive criticism or blind faith?

Like I've said twice now...SC has said he wasn't happy with the way we let teams come at us and the way we changed our play and stopped playing as he had instructed.

Obviously from those comments he knows there is a problem that needs to be worked on.

 

Blind faith?, we are 4 points clear at the top of the league.

 

Even if we won 5-1, SC would find a the negative from the 1 bit, managers/coaches are like that, for what it's worth I believe that the problem is SC and a majority of fans expected us to be bubbling under perhaps even in the position Sheff Utd find themselves in and them in ours and in that respect surprisingly it is not going to plan and fringe players aren't getting a look in, which is another problem, IMO we will only see if the the like for like replacements are good enough once we encounter injuries, suspensions or defeats.

 

The highlighted portion, I have answered one of your questions twice as well.

[spudski]

[Esmond Million's Bung]

[spudski]

Your views do not reflect the majority on this forum, but I suspect you will be happy about that. 

 

You have twisted what I said, you talk about where we will end and I am talking about how we have started, of course it would be under achieving not to reach the play offs that should always (in this league) be a minimum requirement.

 

Blind faith is being bottom of the league without a win and if we have a 'serious' problem by winning our home games and drawing our away games (which is our record in the last 3 games) then i'll drink to that and so will the majority of fans but obviously not the one's you talk to.

So you don't attend games, yet somehow know how the majority of fans thought that we'd be mid table at this point of the season?

How did you get to that conclusion?

You say the majority of fans thought Sheffield would be top and us mid table...yet both are favourites to go up!

We've had a pretty easy start to the season opposition wise...yet you think we would get better over the rest of the season and dramatically improve results against arguably better sides? Especially if injuries were to kick in. We needed these points early...we have far tougher games to come.

Again you are only judging our team by results....and not negatives that are creeping into the team.

That's like listening to a boxing match on the radio and not realising that the boxer winning each round has a wound getting bigger over his eye...next minute you wonder why he's starting to lose rounds because the wound hasn't been attended to properly...you see where I'm going.

As for this majority you talk of... What are you basing that on?

If you mean the forum... I think you have completely misinterpreted what people feel on here and in Bristol generally.

And again your suspicions about how I feel about agreeing with people is totally wrong.

[dezgimed]

Are we meant to win every single game or something?

 

Remember there are 2 teams involved in every match. We'll lose/draw plenty by end of the season. Be happy with an away point. 

[spudski]

Are we meant to win every single game or something?

 

Remember there are 2 teams involved in every match. We'll lose/draw plenty by end of the season. Be happy with an away point. 

Kinnel mate...you've completely missed the point.

 

Everyone is happy with the position we are in...but if you ignore failings in the team, then you are asking for trouble.

Nothing wrong with aiming for perfection and trying to keep improving....or talking about why it went wrong and where improvements could be made.

 

Funny how everyone has an opinion when we were losing.

[dezgimed]

Kinnel mate...you've completely missed the point.

 

Everyone is happy with the position we are in...but if you ignore failings in the team, then you are asking for trouble.

Nothing wrong with aiming for perfection and trying to keep improving....or talking about why it went wrong and where improvements could be made.

 

Funny how everyone has an opinion when we were losing.

 

No the point is, in a parallel universe there are Walsall fans just like us, and Walsall players and coaches and management, all wondering how and why they didn't win. 

 

As hard as we can try and win every single game, it's never gonna happen. We got undone in the last 5 minutes by a goal that would grace the Champions League. Time to move on. 

[The Casual Connoisseur]

I think people are over complicating things.

We seem to have positive outlets in Smith, Freeman and Agard. When we are in winning positions, the general substitutions are to replace these outlets. Yet we still play the same way, passing the ball into the channels yet the personnel to chase these balls have been replaced. In doing this time and time again we turn over possession, we all know that if the other team have possession then we will be put under pressure, this pressure leads to goals.

I've seen this happen consistently this season, city inviting pressure and conceding goals, so far we haven't for this and lost but we've definitely lost points, especially away from home and from commanding positions.

As much as I'm overjoyed at our position there a reason SC isn't managing at a higher level and hasn't greatly succeeded when he has done so, if he ad then he wouldn't be here, this is league one.

As many have eluded to it seems he has 11 players that he believes are capable of doing well, if we are to succeed in this league then we need better replacements for the likes of Freeman, Agard, Wilbs, Elliot etc because it seems as soon as we change personnel then things start going wrong.

If we aren't going to use JET then get him off he wage bill and bring in a player who can be used as an outlet, if we know that Wilbs is running himself into the ground, then bring in a replacement capable of holding the ball up, the same with Elliot.

I know it's easier said than done but a good manager with a great back room staff should be capable of attracting those players we need pushing for competition, we won't win a Thing with using 11 good players, to guarantee automatic promotion you need a good SQUAD, it's up front and in midfield that worries me, I'd like to see us dip know the loan market or utilise the likes of JET.

Great so far, but I'm opinion it's so obvious what needs to be done to ensure us stay at the top of the league.

[Robin1988]

Kinnel mate...you've completely missed the point.

Everyone is happy with the position we are in...but if you ignore failings in the team, then you are asking for trouble.

Nothing wrong with aiming for perfection and trying to keep improving....or talking about why it went wrong and where improvements could be made.

Funny how everyone has an opinion when we were losing.

Absolutely right, I would question wuite how hysterical a few vociferous posters have been about it though.

[spudski]

I think people are over complicating things.

We seem to have positive outlets in Smith, Freeman and Agard. When we are in winning positions, the general substitutions are to replace these outlets. Yet we still play the same way, passing the ball into the channels yet the personnel to chase these balls have been replaced. In doing this time and time again we turn over possession, we all know that if the other team have possession then we will be put under pressure, this pressure leads to goals.

I've seen this happen consistently this season, city inviting pressure and conceding goals, so far we haven't for this and lost but we've definitely lost points, especially away from home and from commanding positions.

As much as I'm overjoyed at our position there a reason SC isn't managing at a higher level and hasn't greatly succeeded when he has done so, if he ad then he wouldn't be here, this is league one.

As many have eluded to it seems he has 11 players that he believes are capable of doing well, if we are to succeed in this league then we need better replacements for the likes of Freeman, Agard, Wilbs, Elliot etc because it seems as soon as we change personnel then things start going wrong.

If we aren't going to use JET then get him off he wage bill and bring in a player who can be used as an outlet, if we know that Wilbs is running himself into the ground, then bring in a replacement capable of holding the ball up, the same with Elliot.

I know it's easier said than done but a good manager with a great back room staff should be capable of attracting those players we need pushing for competition, we won't win a Thing with using 11 good players, to guarantee automatic promotion you need a good SQUAD, it's up front and in midfield that worries me, I'd like to see us dip know the loan market or utilise the likes of JET.

Great so far, but I'm opinion it's so obvious what needs to be done to ensure us stay at the top of the league.

Well at least someone gets it on this thread.

 

May I add it's not just the replacements...which I've not alluded to yet...but more the fact SC cannot/or doesn't want to change the system when we come under consistent pressure with the players we already have on the field.

 

We have played one way only. Pemberton was trying to suggest change to SC but he wasn't having any of it.

 

I'm sure SC and the staff will be trying to work out why it happened in the last three games...lets hope they can nip it in the bud.

[screech]

Well at least someone gets it on this thread.

 

May I add it's not just the replacements...which I've not alluded to yet...but more the fact SC cannot/or doesn't want to change the system when we come under consistent pressure with the players we already have on the field.

 

We have played one way only. Pemberton was trying to suggest change to SC but he wasn't having any of it.

 

I'm sure SC and the staff will be trying to work out why it happened in the last three games...lets hope they can nip it in the bud.

 

We get it, we just don't agree with you.

Cotterill says he lives and breathes the game, any goal we concede will hurt as it will seem like a failure on his part. Walsalls equaliser was a fantastically worked goal with a beautiful finish, why over analyse this?

 

I'm sure he thinks about every aspect of our game night and day, he wants to win every game we play and as far as I can see, him and Pemberton have got us top of the league so far based on hard work and tactical nouse. Unbeaten in 11 games is testament to how well these two have got the team working. Dont forget it's a relatively new team as well, who knows how good we will be when they start understanding each others game better.

[spudski]

We get it, we just don't agree with you.

Cotterill says he lives and breathes the game, any goal we concede will hurt as it will seem like a failure on his part. Walsalls equaliser was a fantastically worked goal with a beautiful finish, why over analyse this?

 

I'm sure he thinks about every aspect of our game night and day, he wants to win every game we play and as far as I can see, him and Pemberton have got us top of the league so far based on hard work and tactical nouse. Unbeaten in 11 games is testament to how well these two have got the team working. Dont forget it's a relatively new team as well, who knows how good we will be when they start understanding each others game better.

Well you obviously don't agree with SC then as well...as he has said he didn't ask his players to play that way in the second half of the game and couldn't understand why they let the opposition come at them.

Walsalls goal was fantastically worked because we sat back and allowed them to play.

I'm glad you can also speak for all the forum.

Plus I'm sure SC and Pembo will be over analysing every goal we concede and why we have let it happen.

Just because we are winning doesn't make every part of our game perfect.

Funny how every time we have lost in the past, everyone had an opinion on it...yet just because we are winning, everything is rose tinted...talk about a 'sing when you're winning attitude'...

Nothing wrong in talking football and tactics and reasons why things don't go to plan.

B

[screech]

Well you obviously don't agree with SC then as well...as he has said he didn't ask his players to play that way in the second half of the game and couldn't understand why they let the opposition come at them.

 

Well of course he didn't ask them to play that way, sometimes it just happens that way. We were winning a game, perhaps in the coaching staffs thoughts, we were looking comfortable with what we had on the pitch. Who knows. He gave an honest answer in an interview.

 

Walsalls goal was fantastically worked because we sat back and allowed them to play.

 

So they were at home searching for an equaliser, erm, is that not acceptable?

I'm glad you can also speak for all the forum.

WTF?

 

Plus I'm sure SC and Pembo will be over analysing every goal we concede and why we have let it happen.

 

That's their job.

 

Just because we are winning doesn't make every part of our game perfect.

 

No, we didn't win the game and it would be ridiculous to think we can win every game. 

 

Funny how every time we have lost in the past, everyone had an opinion on it...yet just because we are winning, everything is rose tinted...talk about a 'sing when you're winning attitude'...

 

You're giving your opinion, others have given theirs. It's you that seems to be taking a swipe at the team and manager over what you value as a more valid point of view. I don't see a well constructed clever goal as much of a problem. Last week we had Elliott gifting a goal for MK Dons second, can Steve Cotterill stop players doing this?

 

Nothing wrong in talking football and tactics and reasons why things don't go to plan.

B

 

Shit happens, sometimes I have a shit day at work too. But my boss knows that and can accept it. If it happens a lot I get fired, last season before Cotterill got here, the players were having shit days at work more often than not. I 'm happy he and Pemberton have changed them around and they now have a lot more pride at work in what they do.

[spudski]

 

 

I think you are missing the point completely mate... there is also no swipe at SC by me.

 

You mention work...if your performance started to wane three days on the trot and you started making mistakes....would you expect your boss to ignore it, or look into reasons why it was happening? If it was becoming a habit...he would wouldn't he.

Same thing with City. SC will be looking at it...not just letting it go.

[Kid in the Riot]

I think this thread has run its course, there are clearly a minority on this forum who aim to stifle debate and won't let other users make any constructive criticism of SC.

 

It's probably a good job that these posters don't actually attend games as I heard plenty of criticism aimed at SC in the away end on Saturday "SC is too pig-headed to make any changes" "****ing change it SC" "He'll play the same 11 next week n all" - and before some smart arse says it, no those comments weren't from me!

[screech]

I think this thread has run its course, there are clearly a minority on this forum who aim to stifle debate and won't let other users make any constructive criticism of SC.

 

It's probably a good job that these posters don't actually attend games as I heard plenty of criticism aimed at SC in the away end on Saturday "SC is too pig-headed to make any changes" "****ing change it SC" "He'll play the same 11 next week n all" - and before some smart arse says it, no those comments weren't from me!

 

Feel free to have a discussion with Spudski, a nice twisting of the situation where anyone who doesnt agree with your views is there to stifle a debate now. Which posters don't go to the games by the way, me?

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

I think you are missing the point completely mate... there is also no swipe at SC by me.

 

You mention work...if your performance started to wane three days on the trot and you started making mistakes....would you expect your boss to ignore it, or look into reasons why it was happening? If it was becoming a habit...he would wouldn't he.

Same thing with City. SC will be looking at it...not just letting it go.

 

In which case no problem!  It's not as if he's got loads of catching up to do.