Bristol City Gollywog On Ebay - Pathetic And Offensive

[oldstandrobin]

Isnt it funny. I played football and served in the RAF with mates who were a different colour to me.....oh go on then....they were West Indian/Afro Caribbean/Not white, we all got on great and called each other racist ?????????? names, but sorry Mr Politically Correct, we were all mates and ate, worked and socialised together and would help each other out if needed. When I go to meet my maker ( after promotion year 2015 !) I couldnt give a s*** if he/she is black/green/ sky blue pink. Lets all get real, in this world we are all different colours/creeds/whatever, the MAJORITY of us live in peace with our neighbours and will continue to do so.

[richwwtk]

Isnt it funny. I played football and served in the RAF with mates who were a different colour to me.....oh go on then....they were West Indian/Afro Caribbean/Not white, we all got on great and called each other racist ?????????? names, but sorry Mr Politically Correct, we were all mates and ate, worked and socialised together and would help each other out if needed. When I go to meet my maker ( after promotion year 2015 !) I couldnt give a s*** if he/she is black/green/ sky blue pink. Lets all get real, in this world we are all different colours/creeds/whatever, the MAJORITY of us live in peace with our neighbours and will continue to do so.

 

I also served in the RAF and you are completely correct, but that isn't what makes things racist. I am not accusing anybody on here of being racist, what I am trying to say is that if people can't see that these terms have been used as a tool of racist abuse by some people then they are displaying a level of ignorance by being surprised when people they don't know are offended by their use.

 

What goes on between friends and serves as 'banter' is different. You are in a position to use your judgement on what is and isn't offensive to them. What you aren't in a position to do is use your judgement on what is offensive to people you have never even met, and it it surely a moral responsibility to avoid using terms that are generally agreed to have the power to offend when used in the wrong sense.

[oldstandrobin]

Richard Herring (comedian) did a great stand-up radio programme on the Gollywog.  Was repeated on Radio 4 Extra a couple of months back. A great listen.

 

Can't find it on youtube - a shame.

Sounds a little fishy to me - oh god didnt we have a salt water thread like this a few months ago ?? Time to go to bed Xmas in 36 days time :xmas:

[KeepUpLino]

If you cant see why there offensive then your clearly thick as s**t

PC ****.... People like you sum this country up perfectly!!

[ooRya]

Whilst it began life as an innocent character in a victorian children's book you'd have to be incredibly ignorant to not be aware that it has since become an overtly racist and offensive (to some) image and word.

 

I am fully aware that the OP meant this as a humorous comment on Cardiff's change of kit colour, but the reactions of some on here amaze me, desperate to accuse people of being overly sensitive for what I can only imagine is some kind of shock value.

 

Plenty of people own collections of the Robertson's Jam figures and there is nothing wrong with that,so long as these people realise and understand that they come from a time that was either more innocent or more tolerant of racist attitudes.

 

The figure and word are not, in themselves, racist. It is more the way they have been used as a racist slur over the years that has made them unacceptable in normal society.

 

This is why the Homepride Fred character is not racist, it has never been used in a derogatory way. Of course, you are still quite within your rights to be offended by it.

 

You may not believe you are being racist, but it remains fact that using the image and name Golliwog these days is considered a racist act in itself.

My problem with the whole racism debate is that, are black/coloured people actually offended by something like the golliwog image, or is it white people insisting that they should be?

[Robbored]

My problem with the whole racism debate is that, are black/coloured people actually offended by something like the golliwog image, or is it white people insisting that they should be?

One thing that I've never fully understood is the use of the "N" word. On one hand it's acceptable for one black guy to use it in conversation with another black guy but it's not acceptable for a white guy to use it.

Would it mean that the white guy is racist if he uses it in same context?

[richwwtk]

My problem with the whole racism debate is that, are black/coloured people actually offended by something like the golliwog image, or is it white people insisting that they should be?

 

I don't believe it's either. I believe the image itself is seen as a stereotypical caricature which is unlikely to offend anybody, whilst at the same time not being particularly complimentary.

 

The problem comes more from the word 'wog' which has historically been used as a term of racist abuse and has therefore tainted the image and name golliwog.

[Redtucks]

In Australia the word 'wog' is not limited to black people, but is applied to Italians, Greeks, etc., i.e.  anyone not Australian.

 

Are you sure that isn't 'wop'?

 

Wop is a term used to describe Italians, or people from Italy, which originated between 1910 and 1915 in the United States.

 

WOP stands for WithOut Papers. Many Italian immigrants had no papers to identify themselves and were branded as WOPs.

[dezgimed]

Are you sure that isn't 'wop'?

 

Wop is a term used to describe Italians, or people from Italy, which originated between 1910 and 1915 in the United States.

 

WOP stands for WithOut Papers. Many Italian immigrants had no papers to identify themselves and were branded as WOPs.

 

Reminds me of a great scene from True Romance about the origins of Sicilians... 

 

[Pickle Rick]

Slightly tedious footnote:

 

The word 'Gollywog' predates the slang term 'wog'.  Gollywogs first appeared in the late 19th century (the word was the name of a doll in an American children's book), but the word 'wog' didn't start being used until the 1st world war.  This suggests that 'wog' might derive from 'gollywog'. 

 

The notion of 'wog' standing for 'western oriental gentlemen' was invented in the 1960s in a tongue-in-cheek attempt to justify the words usage.  This was about the time of Till Death Us Do Part in which the word was frequently used (of course, the writer Johnny Speight meant TDUDP to satirise racists and attack racism, but these things don't always work out the way you planned it and Alf Garnett became a folk hero in some quarters).

 

In Australia the word 'wog' is not limited to black people, but is applied to Italians, Greeks, etc., i.e.  anyone not Australian.

 

Thanks Google.

[Red-Robbo]

Are you sure that isn't 'wop'?

Wop is a term used to describe Italians, or people from Italy, which originated between 1910 and 1915 in the United States.

WOP stands for WithOut Papers. Many Italian immigrants had no papers to identify themselves and were branded as WOPs.

Actually, that's a back-annotation, trying to make an acronym where none existed (those who say POM meant Prisoner Of her Majesty are falling for a similar urban myth).

The likelihood is wop is a phonetic derivation of Guappo - a sort of generic name which had been given to Italian sailors since Shakespeare's times.

[Major Isewater]

I understand that Wog stands /stood for Worker Of the Government .

[Major Isewater]

All we need now is Frank Muir to reveal the truth.

True or Bluff ?

[Redtucks]

Actually, that's a back-annotation, trying to make an acronym where none existed (those who say POM meant Prisoner Of her Majesty are falling for a similar urban myth).

The likelihood is wop is a phonetic derivation of Guappo - a sort of generic name which had been given to Italian sailors since Shakespeare's times.

 

You may well be right!

 

The term, however derived, is of American origin pertaining to Italians.

 

I've no idea about "doo-wop" though!!! 

[Redtucks]

All we need now is Frank Muir to reveal the truth.

True or Bluff ?

 

Yes, I'd forgotten all about that show!

 

It used to be quite interesting and mildly amusing.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

Are you sure that isn't 'wop'?

 

Wop is a term used to describe Italians, or people from Italy, which originated between 1910 and 1915 in the United States.

 

WOP stands for WithOut Papers. Many Italian immigrants had no papers to identify themselves and were branded as WOPs.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Use in Australian English

As with other slang and prima facie profanity used in contemporary Australian English,^[5] the term "wog" may be employed either aggressively or affectionately within differing context. "Wog" is used particularly against Mediterranean and Middle Eastern immigrants in places in Australia, mainly Sydney and Melbourne. These cover those of Southern European or Southeastern European (Italian-Australian, Greek-Australian, etc.), Middle Eastern or Levantine (Lebanese-Australian, Arab Australian, etc.), North African, Turkish, and Caucasus heritage.

['Orns]

Actually, that's a back-annotation, trying to make an acronym where none existed (those who say POM meant Prisoner Of her Majesty are falling for a similar urban myth).

The likelihood is wop is a phonetic derivation of Guappo - a sort of generic name which had been given to Italian sailors since Shakespeare's times.

 

Not sure why anyone would believe the POM thing, it's the Aussie's (therefore the real POM's) that call us Pom's, no?

 

Asked an Aussie once why Pom, I can't remember for the life of me the definition they gave me now

 

Would also like an answer to the point the other Robbo made - I've never understood why it's ok for black people to call each other the 'n' word, but racist for everyone else? I get by just fine without calling my friends pinky, whitey, snowy etc etc. Either it's a completely unacceptable word to be used in any instance, or it's not. If only 'they' can say it then surely that makes it racist the other way??

[richwwtk]

Would also like an answer to the point the other Robbo made - I've never understood why it's ok for black people to call each other the 'n' word, but racist for everyone else? I get by just fine without calling my friends pinky, whitey, snowy etc etc. Either it's a completely unacceptable word to be used in any instance, or it's not. If only 'they' can say it then surely that makes it racist the other way??

 

Isn't the case that there are many things you say privately to friends and colleagues that could be deemed offensive if used in public?

 

I'm not talking about just racist language, but just about any subject that could be used offensively, even down to the base level of swearing.

 

You might swear like a trooper when talking to people you know, but you just wouldn't do it when out shopping (for example) because you never know who you're going to offend.

 

if you can't see the difference between what is said in private and what is said publicly then you're missing something.

['Orns]

Isn't the case that there are many things you say privately to friends and colleagues that could be deemed offensive if used in public?

 

I'm not talking about just racist language, but just about any subject that could be used offensively, even down to the base level of swearing.

 

You might swear like a trooper when talking to people you know, but you just wouldn't do it when out shopping (for example) because you never know who you're going to offend.

 

if you can't see the difference between what is said in private and what is said publicly then you're missing something.

 

Ok, so you are out and about and you see a group of black people having a conversation, in public, and they call each other the 'n' word. Would you feel comfortable going over and striking up a conversation and calling them the same name?

 

I think you're missing the point, either it's racist, or it isn't. You can't be half pregnant

 

You come across as a really judgemental person, you were the person that had a problem with me being a fan of a NFL team I think?? You should start your own blog, I'd love to read some more of your views, they really do astound me now and then 

[CotswoldRed]

Golliwog is manifestly offensive to many people.  Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to read a little bit more.

 

Phrases like "its just an image", "its just a doll", "its just a colour", "why shouldn't I be offended by a white doll" have neither the knowledge to support their argument and probably don't know any of those people who lived through terrible racial prejudice in the 60s onwards.

 

I agree, its just a doll like many others and for that reason alone, so what?  But life isn't as simple as that.

 

A Swastika is just a geometric shape, but you wouldn't feel happy with your children drawing it onto their exercise books.

[Aizoon]

Isn't the case that there are many things you say privately to friends and colleagues that could be deemed offensive if used in public?

 

I'm not talking about just racist language, but just about any subject that could be used offensively, even down to the base level of swearing.

 

You might swear like a trooper when talking to people you know, but you just wouldn't do it when out shopping (for example) because you never know who you're going to offend.

 

if you can't see the difference between what is said in private and what is said publicly then you're missing something.

 

One of the characters in Terry Pratchett's "Wyrd Sisters" habitually calls his dwarf friend B'zugda-hiara meaning "lawn ornament". When a third person tries to use the expression, the dwarf politely points out that it's a killing insult, except among close friends "some things you earn".

 

Private and public language are very different things. Would you use the same language to your partner in a supermarket as you would in bed?

[Aizoon]

Golliwog is manifestly offensive to many people.  Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to read a little bit more.

 

Phrases like "its just an image", "its just a doll", "its just a colour", "why shouldn't I be offended by a white doll" have neither the knowledge to support their argument and probably don't know any of those people who lived through terrible racial prejudice in the 60s onwards.

 

I agree, its just a doll like many others and for that reason alone, so what?  But life isn't as simple as that.

 

A Swastika is just a geometric shape, but you wouldn't feel happy with your children drawing it onto their exercise books.

 

Unless they were Hindus, in which context it has a very different meaning. Context is everything here.

[Red-Robbo]

Not sure why anyone would believe the POM thing, it's the Aussie's (therefore the real POM's) that call us Pom's, no?

 

Asked an Aussie once why Pom, I can't remember for the life of me the definition they gave me now

 

 

 

As I understand it , it developed from humorously calling "immigrants", "pomegranates" due to the very slight similarity of those two words. Aaaah, that legendary Australian sense of humour......

[CotswoldRed]

Unless they were Hindus, in which context it has a very different meaning. Context is everything here.

I agree.

 

But in which context is the golliwog acceptable?

 

If we simply use something offensive in a new light and say "its OK we've changed the context" I think we're in trouble.

['Orns]

As I understand it , it developed from humorously calling "immigrants", "pomegranates" due to the very slight similarity of those two words. Aaaah, that legendary Australian sense of humour......

 

Yeah, I quite often get those two words mixed up!

[Robbored]

Back in the early 70s I was a Student Nurse and my best buddy was an Afro Caribbean guy from Bristol. We had great fun chasing the girls, boozing, playing sports etc etc.

We also use to take trips to Bath and we decided to set up what we thought would be an amusing escapade. I went first into a pub called The Heath Robinson, ordered a pint and stood at the bar. Shortly afterwards my buddy came in stood down the other end of the counter and also ordered a pint.

I looked at the barman and said loudly "do you serve blacks in here?" . The place went silent and the barman utterly shocked said "always, and with your attitude, you're banned from this pub"

So it all backfired. It wasn't amusing at all. Dougie and I and smiled at each other and met in the middle of the bar and had a man hug. It was only then the barman realised we were friends.

Point being not everyone was racist back then.

[ooRya]

Golliwog is manifestly offensive to many people.  Anyone who doesn't understand this needs to read a little bit more.

 

Phrases like "its just an image", "its just a doll", "its just a colour", "why shouldn't I be offended by a white doll" have neither the knowledge to support their argument and probably don't know any of those people who lived through terrible racial prejudice in the 60s onwards.

 

I agree, its just a doll like many others and for that reason alone, so what?  But life isn't as simple as that.

 

A Swastika is just a geometric shape, but you wouldn't feel happy with your children drawing it onto their exercise books.

I guess your post could be aimed at me.

I fully understand/appreciate the points your making, however it's not the 60's or 70's now, so anybody under the age of, say, 40 is probably only offended by a golliwog doll because they have been "educated" that they should be.

Sometimes I can't help thinking that racism only continues to exist because some people strive too hard to be seen as anti racist.

[Aizoon]

As I understand it , it developed from humorously calling "immigrants", "pomegranates" due to the very slight similarity of those two words. Aaaah, that legendary Australian sense of humour......

 

Yes, it can be a real pain getting the seeds out of they immigrants pomegranates.

[richwwtk]

Ok, so you are out and about and you see a group of black people having a conversation, in public, and they call each other the 'n' word. Would you feel comfortable going over and striking up a conversation and calling them the same name?

 

I think you're missing the point, either it's racist, or it isn't. You can't be half pregnant

 

You come across as a really judgemental person, you were the person that had a problem with me being a fan of a NFL team I think?? You should start your own blog, I'd love to read some more of your views, they really do astound me now and then 

 

I think I just don't express my point of view very well sometimes....

 

i have no problem with you being a fan of an NFL team, just had trouble understanding how you could complain about plastics whilst being a fan of an NFL team. Even then, it wasn't a problem, just interested in the point of view.

 

I try my very hardest to not be judgemental, but do question peoples viewpoints when I don't agree with them. I've never called for anyone to be banned etc, just questioned their point of view and nothing more.

 

As for the 'it either is or isn't racist' argument, it really is all about the context and not set in stone.

[Major Isewater]

Yes, I'd forgotten all about that show!

It used to be quite interesting and mildly amusing.

Gentle ,intelligent humour of a bygone age .I think it was time slotted just before "The Young Ones" which was quite some contrast .