General Election 2015 Match Day Thread (Merged)

[chipdawg]

An Nobel Laureate economist gives his view of George Osborne's "stunning success" that the 37% of the electorate bought into.

He thinks it's not all that...

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/may/24/joseph-stiglitz-interview-uk-economy-lost-decade-zero-growth?CMP=share_btn_fb

I posted previously that another Nobel Prize For Economics winner, Paul Krueger, was similarly scathing of our economic performance in the last 5 years and how much austerity had ballsed up our recovery. Some of the conparisons with other G8 nations in his (very, very long) article were damning. How many Nobel prizes have Dave and Gideon won again?!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I have a question.

 

Who exactly did all of these people moaning/protesting actually vote for?.

 

Had they voted for the only other party that could actually win, surely the result would have been different.

 

+ I always love the clamour for PR after an election result that doesn't deliver the result the clamourer likes.

 

As I said before the election, whoever wins will be a disappointment and I will say that same about labours leadership election, but I offer up one piece of advice instead of the bullshit distancing yourself and back stabbing the previous leaders direction and policies, have the balls to criticise or even vote against them during your 5 years in opposition if you really don't agree with them FFS and then perhaps people might actually believe you.

 

The bullshit, flip flopping, false loyalty and downright lies turn people off of politics and directly lead to low turn outs at elections.

 

Caveat of IMO of course.

[chipdawg]

I have a question.

Who exactly did all of these people moaning/protesting actually vote for?.

Had they voted for the only other party that could actually win, surely the result would have been different.

+ I always love the clamour for PR after an election result that doesn't deliver the result the clamourer likes.

As I said before the election, whoever wins will be a disappointment and I will say that same about labours leadership election, but I offer up one piece of advice instead of the bullshit distancing yourself and back stabbing the previous leaders direction and policies, have the balls to criticise or even vote against them during your 5 years in opposition if you really don't agree with them FFS and then perhaps people might actually believe you.

The bullshit, flip flopping, false loyalty and downright lies turn people off of politics and directly lead to low turn outs at elections.

Caveat of IMO of course.

I and many others were 'clamouring' for PR long before any results came in, especially a result that no one saw coming. Your point about "voting for the only other party that could win" reinforces that PR is the only system that will produce a government in any way reflective of what people actually want- unless of course they vote for one of the two parties who created the system that only allows the aforementioned two parties to win just so you can say you influenced the result. And of course that presumes you live in one of the very few constituencies where a change in MP is likely. But other than that, it's the epitome of modern democracy

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I and many others were 'clamouring' for PR long before any results came in, especially a result that no one saw coming. Your point about "voting for the only other party that could win" reinforces that PR is the only system that will produce a government in any way reflective of what people actually want- unless of course they vote for one of the two parties who created the system that only allows the aforementioned two parties to win just so you can say you influenced the result. And of course that presumes you live in one of the very few constituencies where a change in MP is likely. But other than that, it's the epitome of modern democracy

 

The country didn't want AV, do you honestly believe they would want PR?, because I don't think they do.

 

IMO firstly politics needs to reconnect with the people, we had a recent election where hardly one direct question was answered by any politician of any description, I don't bother with question time anymore it's a complete waste of time, a better name would be 'evasion time' and the fine details of paying for election promises were so vague. People don't believe/trust and don't care anymore.

 

The labour party leadership contest proves, politicians just have no shame in quickly re-writing how they voted, briefed and campaigned in the past 5 years and they expect people to swallow that utter shite, the only people who will swallow it for another 5 years are the paid up members of the labour party and then after all the public support and failure 5 years down the line, the same old shit will be trotted out again "well actually, I always thought his/her policies were wrong", well ******* well say so at the time you pussy, I think people would actually like to see their politicians vote the way they actually believe and not along party lines, politics in the UK has become like supporting your football team, I find it all quite sad really.

 

i'm afraid that MP's "still don't get it" and more and more people will become disengaged from the process.

 

Get people re-connected with politics and then try a referendum on PR because perhaps the electorate might then actually care, at this moment in time the only referendum the electorate is interested in is the EU in/out referendum.

[chipdawg]

The country didn't want AV, do you honestly believe they would want PR?, because I don't think they do.

IMO firstly politics needs to reconnect with the people, we had a recent election where hardly one direct question was answered by any politician of any description, I don't bother with question time anymore it's a complete waste of time, a better name would be 'evasion time' and the fine details of paying for election promises were so vague. People don't believe/trust and don't care anymore.

The labour party leadership contest proves, politicians just have no shame in quickly re-writing how they voted, briefed and campaigned in the past 5 years and they expect people to swallow that utter shite, the only people who will swallow it for another 5 years are the paid up members of the labour party and then after all the public support and failure 5 years down the line, the same old shit will be trotted out again "well actually, I always thought his/her policies were wrong", well ******* well say so at the time you pussy, I think people would actually like to see their politicians vote the way they actually believe and not along party lines, politics in the UK has become like supporting your football team, I find it all quite sad really.

i'm afraid that MP's "still don't get it" and more and more people will become disengaged from the process.

Get people re-connected with politics and then try a referendum on PR because perhaps the electorate might then actually care, at this moment in time the only referendum the electorate is interested in is the EU in/out referendum.

Don't really disagree with any of that. I'm not sure a PR referendum would produce the result that I'd like, but I think it'd be a damn sight closer than the AV shambles 5 years ago. As both Labour and Tory are so heavily invested in the maintenance of the current system, it's difficult to see who would be arguing for PR from a position of influence

The only thing I'd disagree with is that people are bothered about an EU referendum. If it was a big issue, more than 14% would have voted UKIP. People may well become more invested as the vote approaches, but I actually don't think the majority of the electorate care that much at the minute

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Don't really disagree with any of that. I'm not sure a PR referendum would produce the result that I'd like, but I think it'd be a damn sight closer than the AV shambles 5 years ago. As both Labour and Tory are so heavily invested in the maintenance of the current system, it's difficult to see who would be arguing for PR from a position of influence

The only thing I'd disagree with is that people are bothered about an EU referendum. If it was a big issue, more than 14% would have voted UKIP. People may well become more invested as the vote approaches, but I actually don't think the majority of the electorate care that much at the minute

 

Why?, the tories promised a vote, so no need to vote UKIP and now the dear old labour party have even decided that actually it's popular as well, perhaps there's a lesson to be learnt?, although I somehow doubt it.

 

of course at this moment in time it's not so important but by the time the referendum happens it will be important.

 

Greece earlier this week and now this will start to influence people and there is still 2 years to go.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/25/germany-france-eurozone-integration-no-lisbon-treaty-change-david-cameron

[chipdawg]

Why?, the tories promised a vote, so no need to vote UKIP and now the dear old labour party have even decided that actually it's popular as well, perhaps there's a lesson to be learnt?, although I somehow doubt it.

of course at this moment in time it's not so important but by the time the referendum happens it will be important.

Greece earlier this week and now this will start to influence people and there is still 2 years to go.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/25/germany-france-eurozone-integration-no-lisbon-treaty-change-david-cameron

But I doubt the majority of people that voted Tory did so because they'd promised a referendum. The spectre of 'Prime Minister Milliband' was foremost in their mind I imagine

I do agree though that it'll become more important as the referendum approaches (which is an obvious truth really) but I still don't think we'll be looking at massive turnouts or a reverse of the gener apathy we tend to get with referendums in this country

[Barrs Court Red]

If th renegotiation goes to plan, the referendum will be pointless. All 3 main parties will want to stay in and business will want to stay in. The only people campaigning to leave would be UKIP.

[Red-Robbo]

The country didn't want AV, do you honestly believe they would want PR?, because I don't think they do.

IMO firstly politics needs to reconnect with the people, we had a recent election where hardly one direct question was answered by any politician of any description, I don't bother with question time anymore it's a complete waste of time, a better name would be 'evasion time' and the fine details of paying for election promises were so vague. People don't believe/trust and don't care anymore.

The labour party leadership contest proves, politicians just have no shame in quickly re-writing how they voted, briefed and campaigned in the past 5 years and they expect people to swallow that utter shite, the only people who will swallow it for another 5 years are the paid up members of the labour party and then after all the public support and failure 5 years down the line, the same old shit will be trotted out again "well actually, I always thought his/her policies were wrong", well ******* well say so at the time you pussy, I think people would actually like to see their politicians vote the way they actually believe and not along party lines, politics in the UK has become like supporting your football team, I find it all quite sad really.

i'm afraid that MP's "still don't get it" and more and more people will become disengaged from the process.

Get people re-connected with politics and then try a referendum on PR because perhaps the electorate might then actually care, at this moment in time the only referendum the electorate is interested in is the EU in/out referendum.

Unfortunately the country was led by the nose by the Tory press to vote against AV.

You're right to say that many of those who voted against felt robbed in 2015 and probably now regret that.

The growth of multi-party politics in this country has exposed to many that giving one party 56 seats for 1.5m votes and another 1 seat for 4m votes isn't equitable.

The penny is finally dropping.

[Red-Robbo]

If th renegotiation goes to plan, the referendum will be pointless. All 3 main parties will want to stay in and business will want to stay in. The only people campaigning to leave would be UKIP.

There are a number of eurosceptic Tory backbenchers, including the former environment minister Owen Paterson. A handful on Labour benches too.

The point is it's a fairly big "if" in your first line.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Unfortunately the country was led by the nose by the Tory press to vote against AV.

You're right to say that many of those who voted against felt robbed in 2015 and probably now regret that.

The growth of multi-party politics in this country has exposed to many that giving one party 56 seats for 1.5m votes and another 1 seat for 4m votes isn't equitable.

The penny is finally dropping.

 

I don't believe it is mate, I really don't it only ever seems to become an issue when the tories win an election and usually by the losers and of course the lib dums.

 

and I don't believe Scotland is an issue, they got what they wanted and what they voted for, 50% of the popular vote and a 5% higher turnout than the England at 71%.

 

i'm a don't know to be honest, I just get left with the feeling of going to restaurant with 11 other people and ending up with my 2nd or 3rd choice, even though the restaurant has everything on the menu.

 

PS:- I know Carswell has always been a supporter of PR, but I cannot recall it being brought up before the election by UKIP.

[Red-Robbo]

I don't believe it is mate, I really don't it only ever seems to become an issue when the tories win an election and usually by the losers and of course the lib dums.

and I don't believe Scotland is an issue, they got what they wanted and what they voted for, 50% of the popular vote and a 5% higher turnout than the England at 71%.

i'm a don't know to be honest, I just get left with the feeling of going to restaurant with 11 other people and ending up with my 2nd or 3rd choice, even though the restaurant has everything on the menu.

That is always the case, anyway. Despite being hailed by some on here as "the people have spoken", only 36.9% of the voters wanted a Tory government, so the other 63.1% of us are living with our second, third or maybe last choice.

There is no ideal way, but there is a fairer way. Most successful democracies operate some form of PR. People don't feel cheated of a voice, are encouraged to engage, and the more immoderate voices are crowded out. You'd never get a failed experiment like monetarism deciding the nation's fortunes under PR.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

That is always the case, anyway. Despite being hailed by some on here as "the people have spoken", only 36.9% of the voters wanted a Tory government, so the other 63.1% of us are living with our second, third or maybe last choice.

There is no ideal way, but there is a fairer way. Most successful democracies operate some form of PR. People don't feel cheated of a voice, are encouraged to engage, and the more immoderate voices are crowded out. You'd never get a failed experiment like monetarism deciding the nation's fortunes under PR.

 

I find it a strange concept personally, because most people who actually vote don't have a 2nd or 3rd choice, I certainly wouldn't, once I decided who to vote for that would be it for me.

 

As I said earlier until politicians re-connect with the electorate the masses won't give a ****, sad to say although he flipped flopped from don't vote to vote for Ed to I was right all along don't vote Jo Brand's ugly brother might have had a point.

[Red-Robbo]

I find it a strange concept personally, because most people who actually vote don't have a 2nd or 3rd choice, I certainly wouldn't, once I decided who to vote for that would be it for me.

As I said earlier until politicians re-connect with the electorate the masses won't give a ****, sad to say although he flipped flopped from don't vote to vote for Ed to I was right all along don't vote Jo Brand's ugly brother might have had a point.

You can vote for just one party under PR -- the point is YOU get the choice.

I'Ve used it to vote in the European elections and the London mayoralty contests. If it's OK for those polls, it's OK nationally.