Guest Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'll ask the question again but in a different manner - is the lack of black football mangers in Britain reflected in other major European Leagues? But are we comparing apples and pears? Different countries have different attitudes and have developed/progressed at different rates. I certainly don't think we will learn much comparing us to say Russia, Spain, Italy. - although it would be very interesting if there was less representation in England. I still think data is a poor measure. Nibor above disagrees but for me society works best when you have an optimum distribution of skills. That means best man for best job. If the best man is black but does not get the job we have a problem. If John Barnes does not get a job that to me does not mean a problem so long as the man who got it was better suited. I see no reason why a by product of this may be the exclusion of ethnic backgrounds as may be the fear (apologies nibor if I misinterpreted this point), because ethnicity doesn't determine the best man for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron-Bcfc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I'll ask the question again but in a different manner - is the lack of black football mangers in Britain reflected in other major European Leagues? Irrelevant when you consider the other major leagues (Spain, Germany, Italy) have very few black people living there in general Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Irrelevant when you consider the other major leagues (Spain, Germany, Italy) have very few black people living there in general Doesn't sound like you've been abroad much recently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It might be interesting to see what John Barnes actually said first before tearing it apart, you can be fairly sure it wasn't what Robbored put as the thread title. It's in the Times sports section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cider red Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Irrelevant when you consider the other major leagues (Spain, Germany, Italy) have very few black people living there in general Disagree entirely. Spain, Germany and Italy have roughly the same percentage of overall population of ethnic minorities as the uk (20%), seeing as they are bigger that will mean a higher overall number. Whether those minorities are black or Asian etc I'm not sure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It might be interesting to see what John Barnes actually said first before tearing it apart, you can be fairly sure it wasn't what Robbored put as the thread title. It's true that black people are under represented as managers (and are under represented at the top of many industries). Given that the best route to management appears to be playing, don't these numbers look a little suspicious? Roughly 14% of the UK population are black / minority ethnicity (BME) Roughly 25% of professional players are BME. 6.4% of people passing the UEFA pro license are BME. 3.4% of coaching staff from academy to first team manager are BME. Now I don't want "positive" discrimination or quotas, and I have little time for complaints from the likes of Paul Ince who has had a fair few chances and got poor results, but I do think the overall picture indicates there is a problem and it isn't trending in a direction that looks like it will solve itself. What % of black players actually go down the various routes and do there badges though, that stat would be the most interesting. If there were hordes of qualified black coaches about not being able to get jobs then yes i could understand.. I think generally speaking for what ever reason the vast majority of black players retire and have no interest in management, the ones that do have just a fair a chance as any other race IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's in the Times sports section. That's how I knew it wasn't what he said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 What % of black players actually go down the various routes and do there badges though, that stat would be the most interesting. If there were hordes of qualified black coaches about not being able to get jobs then yes i could understand.. I think generally speaking for what ever reason the vast majority of black players retire and have no interest in management, the ones that do have just a fair a chance as any other race IMO. It would be interesting to know the numbers rather than the percentages, it would also be interesting to see those numbers over time. It's a little strange that the proportions between qualifying and having a job pretty much halve though isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 But are we comparing apples and pears? Different countries have different attitudes and have developed/progressed at different rates. I certainly don't think we will learn much comparing us to say Russia, Spain, Italy. - although it would be very interesting if there was less representation in England. I still think data is a poor measure. Nibor above disagrees but for me society works best when you have an optimum distribution of skills. That means best man for best job. If the best man is black but does not get the job we have a problem. If John Barnes does not get a job that to me does not mean a problem so long as the man who got it was better suited. I see no reason why a by product of this may be the exclusion of ethnic backgrounds as may be the fear (apologies nibor if I misinterpreted this point), because ethnicity doesn't determine the best man for the job. I think you've misinterpreted me. Let me put it another way... On an individual job level absolutely the best person should get the job. I said before I don't want quotas or positive" discrimination. On a "jobs in the industry as a whole" level it should be a concern the ratio of black staff is far, far lower than the ratio of black players - because that might indicate that a whole group of people are not getting the opportunity to develop and we could be missing out on talent. At least, it should be a concern until we know why - not dismissed until it can be proven a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryskip Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I struggle to accept that any club wouldn't choose the best candidate available due to race, especially when you consider how many clubs have been linked with Ched Evans. I read the other day there are only 4 ex England internationals managing in England and Chris Powell is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 You'd be best to exclude the 7% of Asian population from those stats as Britain has little history of Asian-origin players - or even supporters. So really we need to look at the 4.98% black or mixed race element of that headline figure you quoted. With that considered, things look a bit more representative. Particularly if you factor in the fact that black footballers were not particularly prevalent in the 1970s and early 80s when the oldest guard of our current crop of managers were playing. The numbers are slowly increasing and soon it will not be an issue. Unless someone with a pisspoor record wants to make it so. I'm not sure I understand your point about the asian population, I only mentioned the UK overall number just to put the rest into context. If you look solely at black players or mixed race players it's still around 25%, and the staff percentages are a little lower. There are cultural differences of course - most guys I know with Caribbean heritage are more interested in cricket and basketball - and I'm sure Indians generally are more interested in cricket. But the playing numbers to coaching numbers are telling aren't they? The imbalance has been there for a long old time and I don't think it's changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron-Bcfc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Doesn't sound like you've been abroad much recently... Apologies if what I've said is incorrect, I know the ethnic minority percentage is roughly the same as over here but the percentage of those ethnic minorities that are black I thought was far lower in those countries, especially Spain and Italy. Wouldn't that be reflected in the fact that the only black player across both national teams is Mario Balotelli? Or is that another problem altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I think you've misinterpreted me. Let me put it another way... On an individual job level absolutely the best person should get the job. I said before I don't want quotas or positive" discrimination. On a "jobs in the industry as a whole" level it should be a concern the ratio of black staff is far, far lower than the ratio of black players - because that might indicate that a whole group of people are not getting the opportunity to develop and we could be missing out on talent. At least, it should be a concern until we know why - not dismissed until it can be proven a problem. Understood and agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I would have thought that especially in the case of the prem, but probably for the other 3 leagues as well, how many black players actually hold the requisite licences/coaching qualifications, because if it's low that's going to skew the figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North London Red Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I read the other day there are only 4 ex England internationals managing in England and Chris Powell is one of them. Keith Curle Tim Sherwood Nigel Clough Is that really all? Lee Clark was close to a call up in the 90s (and he played for the u21s) but no caps for the senior team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lou-peters-dive Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Good as a player but that doesn't make you a good manager what ever your ethnicicty. Perhaps he should accept that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNBT Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It's got more to do with him being shite imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 It might be interesting to see what John Barnes actually said first before tearing it apart, you can be fairly sure it wasn't what Robbored put as the thread title. It's true that black people are under represented as managers (and are under represented at the top of many industries). Given that the best route to management appears to be playing, don't these numbers look a little suspicious? Roughly 14% of the UK population are black / minority ethnicity (BME) Roughly 25% of professional players are BME. 6.4% of people passing the UEFA pro license are BME. 3.4% of coaching staff from academy to first team manager are BME. Now I don't want "positive" discrimination or quotas, and I have little time for complaints from the likes of Paul Ince who has had a fair few chances and got poor results, but I do think the overall picture indicates there is a problem and it isn't trending in a direction that looks like it will solve itself. But why are only 6.4% of people passing UEFA pro license BME? Is it because so few actually attend the courses or are BME people being stopped from attending? Is there evidence that black managers aren't getting jobs because of their skin colour? Or is there a distinct lack of black players wanting to go into management? This debate has come up before and it's the same shit. There's no evidence just some statistics that can be twisted to fit an agenda and some unproven managers not getting jobs - supposedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider-manc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 One thing barnes says is that black managers dont get second chances. This obviously dont apply to Paul ince who has since becoming a manager nearly 10 years ago has only spent 1 year without a job despite being consistently shit for the majority of that time. There would be more substance to barnes argument if he had even a half decent record as a manager. But he doesn't. Im not saying it doesn't happen but barnes using himself as the case is not going to persuade anyone that it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 This debate has come up before and it's the same shit. There's no evidence just some statistics that can be twisted to fit an agenda and some unproven managers not getting jobs - supposedly. I tend to agree. Imo Barnes can't find employment as a manager because he has a crap record in his managerial career so far. The fact he's black has nothing to do with that fact. There many unemployed white managers out there as well as Ray Wilkins pointed out on Talk Sport this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 But why are only 6.4% of people passing UEFA pro license BME? Is it because so few actually attend the courses or are BME people being stopped from attending? Is there evidence that black managers aren't getting jobs because of their skin colour? Or is there a distinct lack of black players wanting to go into management? This debate has come up before and it's the same shit. There's no evidence just some statistics that can be twisted to fit an agenda and some unproven managers not getting jobs - supposedly. Part of the reason - which I alluded to in my earlier post - is that the biggest component of "BME" in this country are Asian: generally speaking only interested in cricket, not football. Only 4.98% of the UK population are black or mixed race with a black parent. Put in that context, 6.4% of those getting coaching qualifications being "BME" doesn't seem quite so uneven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkeeebles Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Utter rubbish. I can't get a job as a premier/football league manager either and I'm not black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Well he was pretty bad at Celtic. Well do I remember the fantastic headline when Celtic were beaten in the cup by Inverness Caledonian Thistle before they were any good: Super Callie go ballistic, Celtic are atrocious. Genius... Genuine question. Was that really a headline, or made up later. Whatever, it is, as you say, genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 One thing barnes says is that black managers dont get second chances. This obviously dont apply to Paul ince who has since becoming a manager nearly 10 years ago has only spent 1 year without a job despite being consistently shit for the majority of that time. There would be more substance to barnes argument if he had even a half decent record as a manager. But he doesn't. Im not saying it doesn't happen but barnes using himself as the case is not going to persuade anyone that it does. Chris Houghton again has been given a fair few chances, i personally as i said in my earlier post not enough black players want to go into management and its as simple as that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hortonred Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Playing the race card? or is he just a crap manager? The question is - is the lack of black mangers simply a British phenomenon or are there a plethora of black managers in La Liga, Serie A or any other major European league? Proven crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Chris Houghton again has been given a fair few chances, i personally as i said in my earlier post not enough black players want to go into management and its as simple as that.. Hughton has had his chances because he's a very good manager, Barnes won't get a third chance because his record at Tranmere was shit. Your comment about not enough black players wanting to go into management has no evidence to back it up at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Irrelevant when you consider the other major leagues (Spain, Germany, Italy) have very few black people living there in general I have tried to refrain myself throughout this thread, but, finally, I can withhold no longer. NONSENSE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron-Bcfc Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I have tried to refrain myself throughout this thread, but, finally, I can withhold no longer. NONSENSE! Read back a bit mate Red-Robbo also brought this to my attention. This was my reply to him: "Apologies if what I've said is incorrect, I know the ethnic minority percentage is roughly the same as over here but the percentage of those ethnic minorities that are black I thought was far lower in those countries, especially Spain and Italy. Wouldn't that be reflected in the fact that the only black player across both national teams is Mario Balotelli? Or is that another problem altogether?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFiGO!?! Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Genuine question. Was that really a headline, or made up later. Whatever, it is, as you say, genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Cyril Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Why is Mr Barnes only raising the issue of under representation of the black minority among professional managers? I am not aware of any representatives of women/gay/handicapped minorities as managers in the top flight either. One rule for one and all that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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