Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Read back a bit mate Red-Robbo also brought this to my attention. This was my reply to him: "Apologies if what I've said is incorrect, I know the ethnic minority percentage is roughly the same as over here but the percentage of those ethnic minorities that are black I thought was far lower in those countries, especially Spain and Italy. Wouldn't that be reflected in the fact that the only black player across both national teams is Mario Balotelli? Or is that another problem altogether?" Italy is one of my favourite countries in Europe, but I'm sure even most enlightened Italians will say racism there is of the "Britain in the 70s" style. There's also the fact that the black community there started arriving a lot later than in the UK. I'm sure if you went there in the 50s or 60s you'd not see a non-white face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM91 Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Every time this argument comes up I make the same point, **disclaimer if you're under the thumb of political correctness you will not like it**. 3.3% of the UK Population is black - 2011 Census, Office for National Statistics. In order for English football to demonstrate equality the following would be true: 1/ 3 of the 92 managers that would be black. 2/ assuming squad sizes of 25, there would be 17 black players in the Premier League. Clearly 2 is massively accurate, while 1 hovers around the right area. Personally, as a young white footballer who didn't make the grade I think it's clear that the only reason I didn't play professional football is that I wasn't chosen because I'm white. That being said, the 7.5% of Asian population in Britain is being massively underrepresented in all roles in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olé Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wayne Allison is UEFA pro licenced and works for the FA as a researcher after coaching spells at Bury, Tranmere and Bradford. Leroy Rosenior works in the media after managing Gloucester and Merthyr in order to earn gigs at Torquay and Brentford. Terry Connor is perennial assistant to Mick McCarthy (after being assistant in our promotion 17 years ago). Junior Bent works in NatWest and coaches one of Preston's youth teams. Andy Cole did some coaching at MK Dons and Huddersfield. Mickey Mellon manages Shrewsbury. Rob Edwards managed Tranmere. Mickey Bell managed Weston. Mark Aizlewood manages Carmarthen Town. Gary Owers managed Forest Green. Peter Beadle managed Newport and Hereford. Martin Scott managed Hartlepool. Jim McIntyre manages Ross County after Dunfermline and Queen of the South. Have I chosen these all deliberately or is there one lot that lands managers jobs immediately and another that rarely gets past coaching. No opinion myself, just fuel for the fire. Barnes is clearly not a good manager and undermines any validity in the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Absolutely fantastic, and Thanks for that. Like many, I am sure, I hate the 'red tops' for their constant bullshit, but, every now and then, they come up with this (IMO) classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFiGO!?! Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 Absolutely fantastic, and Thanks for that. Like many, I am sure, I hate the 'red tops' for their constant bullshit, but, every now and then, they come up with this (IMO) classic.Did feel immoral to link The Sun but there was no way around it, for the desired effect. There was a creative mind behind that headline alright Re the wider debate, think where question marks are raised is in the discrepancy between black players and black managers. Les Ferdinand who doesn't strike me as a bitter guy (but that's beside the point) waded in. He reckoned 10/17 black coaches were employed by QPR and Spurs (don't quote me, but it was along those lines anyway). There seems to be a breakdown in the step up from playing. Standard recruitment processes are not undergone by football boards; it is not what you know but who you know - he was claiming. It seems a closed shop. I do not believe that there is an inherently, covert or otherwise, racist culture within the English game, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Irrelevant when you consider the other major leagues (Spain, Germany, Italy) have very few black people living there in general The countries quoted may have a lower percentage of Afro-Caribbean inhabitants than UK but many European countries have significant ethnic minorities. France - Arabic from North Africa Germany - Turkish and the former Yugoslav countries Netherlands - Surinam and other former colonies. Spain - Former South American colonies Portugal - Brazil, Angola, Mozambique I suspect, but without any concrete evidence, that all the ethnic minorities fill fewer "top jobs" in all employment spheres than the indigenous population. The same could be stated in relation to female / male numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolskRed Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Well he was pretty bad at Celtic. Well do I remember the fantastic headline when Celtic were beaten in the cup by Inverness Caledonian Thistle before they were any good: Super Callie go ballistic, Celtic are atrocious. Genius... I thought he did a superb job at Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hunt-Hertz Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Is it cos I is crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunc Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 But why are only 6.4% of people passing UEFA pro license BME? Is it because so few actually attend the courses or are BME people being stopped from attending? Is there evidence that black managers aren't getting jobs because of their skin colour? Or is there a distinct lack of black players wanting to go into management? This debate has come up before and it's the same shit. There's no evidence just some statistics that can be twisted to fit an agenda and some unproven managers not getting jobs - supposedly. Discrimination doesn't just mean active prevention and can take many forms. No one is suggesting that aspiring BME coaches get turned away from a UEFA course because of the colour of their skin. Just saying 'maybe they don't want to' doesn't cut it for me. In other walks of life it is slightly easier to try and justify the lower proportions of BME managers/leaders where education and qualifications are a strong indicator of success and BME have statistically lower levels of attainment. However it doesn't mean discrimination doesn't exist here. A recent study in the US showed that CVs with BME 'sounding' names had a significantly lower success rate than identical CVs with 'traditional' English names. In football, where there isn't even the education argument to fall back on, and you would expect to see similar proportions of BME players turn into managers... unless there is some sort of societal bias going on. As JM91 has pointed out there is an overrepresentation (statistically) of black players at the top level, therefore you would expect to see the same pattern emerging in management, not the '3.3%' national average statistic. As others have pointed out we have a large Asian population who have virtually no representation in professional football. To get the best out of the natural ability of our population, as well as doing the right thing to foster the meritocratic society we should all want to live in, we have to tackle this societal bias head on... and the first step is acknowledging it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Much of what Barnes says has foundation, I think. He lays it on so thick though that it sounds like sour grapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip Nolan Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Aren't Yate Town looking for a new manager since Rob Cousins left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 John Barnes is a well spoken intelligent middle class guy and as such is unlikely to be experiencing discrimination. Other than with regard to his total lack of ability at managing at football club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 This is a difficult thing to quantify, unless you have figures for numbers taking badges and the standard of badges. Then you need to know what jobs are applied for, and the competition. If JB is applying for top jobs then he has very little chance of getting them, as would every other novice manager of what ever race/creed/colour. Top teams simply would not employ managers with little experience. If he applied for lower league jobs , I would be amazed that someone would give him a shot purely for the press and advertising boost. John Barnes managed to lose a 2 horse race as Celtic manager, by 21 points. If that takes pride of place on your CV , in an industry not known for it's forgiving nature, I can see why teams are a little hesitant. At least Ince has put in the effort before crying foul when he bollixed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfOfWestStreet Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 With the money involved in football now, nobody in any club in the top (maybe three) divisions on a manager with a CV as poor as Barnes, just won't happen. His skin colour is irrelevant in this respect. Managers with several promotions on their CV like Gary Johnson are at league 2 clubs, or out of work completely Atkins, Hollowhead, that bald bloke from reading etc. Barnes needs to learn to be a manager before he can get a managers job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Barnes needs to learn to be a manager before he can get a managers job! Absolutely true. Maybe he has a poor reputation within the game after his failure at Celtic and that's a big part of his inability to get a managerial job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Colby-Tit Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Someone once said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it", and I think this has happened in the racism in football debate. I've been attending football for 40 years, and have never personally experienced racism being displayed. That's not to say it didn't happen back in the 70's and 80's, but I didn't witness it. The percentage of black players in the English leagues, demonstrates clearly, IMO, that racism is no longer an issue in the institution of football itself. However, we still constantly see the "Kick it Out" campaign, and these stories appearing in the media. If people keep seeing Kick Racism Out of Football, they will assume that there is racism in football. And of course, people are loathed to come out and say it isn't a problem for fear of being labelled a racist. Which makes you wonder why the footballing authorities keep pushing the message. Perhaps because as institutionally corrupt, money-grabbing bodies they are keen to send a message of being politically correct as a diversion? Propaganda has always been used to influence people, and I think that is what we are seeing here. My mrs is Asian, and has never been given a chance in football. However, she has no interest in it whatsoever, and can't kick a ball without falling over. Feel free to be offended on her behalf though if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Someone once said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it", and I think this has happened in the racism in football debate. I've been attending football for 40 years, and have never personally experienced racism being displayed. That's not to say it didn't happen back in the 70's and 80's, but I didn't witness it. The percentage of black players in the English leagues, demonstrates clearly, IMO, that racism is no longer an issue in the institution of football itself. However, we still constantly see the "Kick it Out" campaign, and these stories appearing in the media. If people keep seeing Kick Racism Out of Football, they will assume that there is racism in football. And of course, people are loathed to come out and say it isn't a problem for fear of being labelled a racist. Which makes you wonder why the footballing authorities keep pushing the message. Perhaps because as institutionally corrupt, money-grabbing bodies they are keen to send a message of being politically correct as a diversion? Propaganda has always been used to influence people, and I think that is what we are seeing here. My mrs is Asian, and has never been given a chance in football. However, she has no interest in it whatsoever, and can't kick a ball without falling over. Feel free to be offended on her behalf though if you wish. Maybe because its rife in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Colby-Tit Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Maybe because its rife in other countries. As far as I am aware the Kick It Out campaign was initiated solely to tackle perceived racism in the UK game. Lord Herman Ouseley, chair and founder of Kick It Out, said "Institutional discrimination is an integral part of the policies and practices of most organisations in the UK. ?It is underpinned by personal prejudices and accepted dominant cultures" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider-manc Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Someone once said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it", and I think this has happened in the racism in football debate. I've been attending football for 40 years, and have never personally experienced racism being displayed. That's not to say it didn't happen back in the 70's and 80's, but I didn't witness it. The percentage of black players in the English leagues, demonstrates clearly, IMO, that racism is no longer an issue in the institution of football itself. However, we still constantly see the "Kick it Out" campaign, and these stories appearing in the media. If people keep seeing Kick Racism Out of Football, they will assume that there is racism in football. And of course, people are loathed to come out and say it isn't a problem for fear of being labelled a racist. Which makes you wonder why the footballing authorities keep pushing the message. Perhaps because as institutionally corrupt, money-grabbing bodies they are keen to send a message of being politically correct as a diversion? Propaganda has always been used to influence people, and I think that is what we are seeing here. My mrs is Asian, and has never been given a chance in football. However, she has no interest in it whatsoever, and can't kick a ball without falling over. Feel free to be offended on her behalf though if you wish. I would never suggest racism isn't a problem. They may be isolated incidents but the fact is it has happened both on the field and in the stands in recent years and it is not something that we should give up fighting until our society is completely rid of it. However having said that, I feel that Barnes does the campaign more harm than good. It's a shame as the guy has been very publicly subjected to vile abuse during his playing career and had to put up with it for years but until he provides evidence about it preventing him progress as a manager he will simply come across as bitter due to his record being so poor. If Liverpool or Watford announced him as manager tomorrow the fans would have kittens and it would have nothing to do with the colour of his skin but because he has been awful as a manager everywhere he has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Colby-Tit Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I would never suggest racism isn't a problem. They may be isolated incidents but the fact is it has happened both on the field and in the stands in recent years and it is not something that we should give up fighting until our society is completely rid of it. That's sort of the point I'm making. Isolated incidents of racism happen in all walks of life, every day (and sadly will no doubt continue to do so), but the Kick It Out campaign and the media make people believe it is a particularly bad problem in football, which I just don't believe is the truth. Absolutely, we should continue to fight it, but to imply that football needs more action than other areas does more harm than good IMO. I work for a law firm, and the % of ethnic minorities is very, very low (much lower than your average UK football league squad), but you don't see a Kick Racism Out of Solicitors campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I thought he did a superb job at on Celtic. Corrected that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 That's sort of the point I'm making. Isolated incidents of racism happen in all walks of life, every day (and sadly will no doubt continue to do so), but the Kick It Out campaign and the media make people believe it is a particularly bad problem in football, which I just don't believe is the truth. Absolutely, we should continue to fight it, but to imply that football needs more action than other areas does more harm than good IMO. I work for a law firm, and the % of ethnic minorities is very, very low (much lower than your average UK football league squad), but you don't see a Kick Racism Out of Solicitors campaign. Quick - start one, Sir Colby! Good PR for your firm plus they'll have to let you swan about on "raising awareness" events whilst taking days to decide upon the nuances of various t-shirt designs rather than doing any actual work. Plus they won't dare sack you however many sickies you take as you can claim it was because you were anti-racist. Do it now. Call it something like "Conveyance Racism out of Soliciting" or somesuch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tins Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Someone once said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it", and I think this has happened in the racism in football debate. I've been attending football for 40 years, and have never personally experienced racism being displayed. That's not to say it didn't happen back in the 70's and 80's, but I didn't witness it. The percentage of black players in the English leagues, demonstrates clearly, IMO, that racism is no longer an issue in the institution of football itself. However, we still constantly see the "Kick it Out" campaign, and these stories appearing in the media. If people keep seeing Kick Racism Out of Football, they will assume that there is racism in football. And of course, people are loathed to come out and say it isn't a problem for fear of being labelled a racist. Which makes you wonder why the footballing authorities keep pushing the message. Perhaps because as institutionally corrupt, money-grabbing bodies they are keen to send a message of being politically correct as a diversion? Propaganda has always been used to influence people, and I think that is what we are seeing here. My mrs is Asian, and has never been given a chance in football. However, she has no interest in it whatsoever, and can't kick a ball without falling over. Feel free to be offended on her behalf though if you wish. I think you're forgetting about the recent Chelsea fan's in Paris. There clearly still is a problem, just because you're not witnessing it doesn't mean it's not happening. I'm sure I watched a programme recently where quite a few players (of recent times) have said they've been racially abused at football. Regarding the John Barne's comment, he has got one point, there are far too many rubbish white managers who still get jobs ala Lee Clark, Michael Appleton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTFiGO!?! Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Quick - start one, Sir Colby! Good PR for your firm plus they'll have to let you swan about on "raising awareness" events whilst taking days to decide upon the nuances of various t-shirt designs rather than doing any actual work. Plus they won't dare sack you however many sickies you take as you can claim it was because you were anti-racist. Do it now. Call it something like "Conveyance Racism out of Soliciting" or somesuch.Get to flirt with attractive young ladies as well plus having complimentary sandwiches put on. Once it's sorted for the day, you can all go down the pub and get pissed. Happy Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictly Obi Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 It's got more to do with him being shite imo.Yes, but as someone else has already pointed out"Why is it shit white managers seem to get job after job?" I suspect the problem lies in the boardroom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 John Barnes isn't getting jobs because he is a shit manager the same as paul ince, Chris Ramsey will say its because he's black when he fails to land the QPR job after getting them relegated, I'm all for giving them a chance but they have to earn a top job like every other manager, Jimmy Floyd will be worth a go at championship level at least becaye he's gone out and learnt his trade, If Andrew Cole fancys a go at managing he will be given a chance because he's gone out and done the coaching side of things and learnt, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes, but as someone else has already pointed out"Why is it shit white managers seem to get job after job?" I suspect the problem lies in the boardroom! what ever happened to Glenn Roeder anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 what ever happened to Glenn Roeder anyway? He peaked with that unrelegateable West Ham squad in 2002-3. Nothing was going to top that achievement, I presume he retired thereafter, resting on his well-earned laurels. As to the original topic of John Barnes, thinking 4-2-2-2 was viable was enough to cast him onto the managerial scrapheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes, but as someone else has already pointed out"Why is it shit white managers seem to get job after job?" I suspect the problem lies in the boardroom! Exactly, just leave it at "why is it shit managers get job after job?" Football management must be in a small group of careers where the recruitment process seems to be based largely on picking from a pool of people who were fired from a similar role elsewhere for being cack at their chosen profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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