Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 2 hours ago, chipdawg said: I think the cost argument is relevant while there is no clear 'battle plan'. I don't see how what we're planning on doing is going to prevent a Paris-style attack in the UK. The only thing that will do that long term is to win the information battle, stop them spreading their doctrine and stop them organising fighters to travel to Syria and stop people being radicalised Military action to diminish them in Syria and Iraq, fine. Military action to stop terrorist attacks in Europe? That makes no sense to me Do you believe that if there is a no vote tomorrow, that will make an attack on the UK mainland less likely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 16 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: Well bombing and no one having any ideas is no better than no one having any ideas and not bombing . I think Libya proved that. Really?, so the plan is just leave Isis to their own devices then?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 13 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Really?, so the plan is just leave Isis to their own devices then?. Who said that! They have various armies fighting them already. If we act as honest brokers and try to get a lasting post-Assad solution for Syria we will do far more to speed the defeat of IS than by sending six fighter-bombers in a token and ill-thought through "mission". In the meantime provide arms and logistical support to the Kurds and other anti-IS forces by all means. British planes bombing will only increase radicalisation when our bombs hit civilian targets - as they are bound to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 21 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Do you believe that if there is a no vote tomorrow, that will make an attack on the UK mainland less likely? Not at all, but I also don't believe that bombing Syria will make it less likely. Therefore any argument about bombing Isis to protect people on the streets of Britain is kind of a moot point in my eyes. As I said, I have no problem with bombing them I just don't think it's been established what is to be gained by spending money and risking lives to do so. As Robbo said, spending the money on attacking the flow of information in and out of Isis seems to me to be a better way to contribute to the fight and a more effective way of securing the long term safety of our citizens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 10 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: Who said that! They have various armies fighting them already. If we act as honest brokers and try to get a lasting post-Assad solution for Syria we will do far more to speed the defeat of IS than by sending six fighter-bombers in a token and ill-thought through "mission". In the meantime provide arms and logistical support to the Kurds and other anti-IS forces by all means. British planes bombing will only increase radicalisation when our bombs hit civilian targets - as they are bound to do. The Kurds will only fight in land they want for autonomy in Northern Syria and Western Iraq where they are fending off Turkey as well as Isis. Until a credible ground war force is assembled from the disparate groups with an interest in ridding the area of Isis the bombing has to continue or perhaps just leave the Kurds and others to it perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 45 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Firstly you haven't answered my bizarre question, you never answer any criticism of labour not once. I just believe that we cannot just sit back and do nothing and so do the majority of the UK electorate and a majority of labour voters, that's called democracy Bill. Im hardly going to criticise the bizarre stuff you come out with!. You come out with this sort of thing on a daily basis. I told you yesterday I quit the Labour Party over an issue I disagreed with, what next, burn the local Labour Party meeting place down ? Ive no problem with you believing bombing will work, that's your opinion, strange that you can't accept mine though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 1 minute ago, Portland Bill said: Im hardly going to criticise the bizarre stuff you come out with!. You come out with this sort of thing on a daily basis. I told you yesterday I quit the Labour Party over an issue I disagreed with, what next, burn the local Labour Party meeting place down ? Ive no problem with you believing bombing will work, that's your opinion, strange that you can't accept mine though. Please explain what is bizarre about criticising gender segregated meetings in the UK in 2015 and the continued tacit support by politicians?, the thread is entitled Jeremy Corbyn and he attended such a meeting on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 48 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Do you believe that if there is a no vote tomorrow, that will make an attack on the UK mainland less likely? ISIS will try and attack this country regardless of which way the vote goes. It will more than likely be done by people born in this country, the same as in the French attacks. I would be 100% behind bombing if we knew it would actually do the job, but as I stated earlier, about 10 countries have been doing the same for months, so why do we think we can do what they haven't been able to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 1 minute ago, Portland Bill said: ISIS will try and attack this country regardless of which way the vote goes. It will more than likely be done by people born in this country, the same as in the French attacks. I would be 100% behind bombing if we knew it would actually do the job, but as I stated earlier, about 10 countries have been doing the same for months, so why do we think we can do what they haven't been able to? Well 3 of the Paris bombers had returned from Syria and allowed to move around Europe totally unmolested. Apparently the bombing is working in Iraq, where we are actually bombing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 16 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Well 3 of the Paris bombers had returned from Syria and allowed to move around Europe totally unmolested. Apparently the bombing is working in Iraq, where we are actually bombing. Im sure the bombing is working in Syria to an extent as well, but it's not a means to an end. The only way ( again, according to all the military experts) we will stop Isis totally is to have troops on the ground. We are being told this won't happen ( uk troops anyway) but it seems inevitable that it will happen one day. Mind you, I do know for fact that we have troops currently in Iraq, my sons mate is there at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 2 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: Im sure the bombing is working in Syria to an extent as well, but it's not a means to an end. The only way ( again, according to all the military experts) we will stop Isis totally is to have troops on the ground. We are being told this won't happen ( uk troops anyway) but it seems inevitable that it will happen one day. Mind you, I do know for fact that we have troops currently in Iraq, my sons mate is there at the moment. I don't think anybody is suggesting that bombing will suffice on it's own but it will become a means to an end when there is a proper alliance of troops from various countries capable of properly fighting a ground war and there is no way other than special forces that there will be UK or U S troops on the ground fighting, that will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 48 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: The Kurds will only fight in land they want for autonomy in Northern Syria and Western Iraq where they are fending off Turkey as well as Isis. Until a credible ground war force is assembled from the disparate groups with an interest in ridding the area of Isis the bombing has to continue or perhaps just leave the Kurds and others to it perhaps. And until we have a credible unified Syrian army, no amount of bombing will shift IS from its heartland. So trying to broker a peace deal among more moderate factions rather than just ignoring the fact our jets are flying over a civil war might be a decent idea. No one ever won a war with just air power. In fact, there are umpteen examples of where bombing campaign only helped bond the defiance of those suffering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 It seems pretty certain that a yes to air strikes will win tomorrow's vote, we will just have to sit back and see how this all pans out. Hopefully all works out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said: And until we have a credible unified Syrian army, no amount of bombing will shift IS from its heartland. So trying to broker a peace deal among more moderate factions rather than just ignoring the fact our jets are flying over a civil war might be a decent idea. No one ever won a war with just air power. In fact, there are umpteen examples of where bombing campaign only helped bond the defiance of those suffering it. Read my response to Bill above I am agreeing with the highlighted sentences. I suspect a peace deal with the more moderate factions is already ongoing, I also suspect that the spat between Turkey and Russia has further muddied the waters and slowed that process down and it is the central plank of the case being put forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 Bomb gone off at a station in Istanbul this afternoon, BBC don`t know if any casualties or who did it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 12 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said: Read my response to Bill above I am agreeing with the highlighted sentences. I suspect a peace deal with the more moderate factions is already ongoing, I also suspect that the spat between Turkey and Russia has further muddied the waters and slowed that process down and it is the central plank of the case being put forward. Let's hope your suspicions are correct, as the Spam Robot has said nothing about it, and is still talking of Assad as an enemy. Whatever we think, the Tories, DUP and blue Labour are going to push us into a bombing campaign. I've always wondered why the oil fields controlled by IS aren't hit. First thing we attacked during the Gulf Wars. Individual fighters can move around, but oil rigs can't - and we know exactly where they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasbuster Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 15 hours ago, Portland Bill said: I've answered your bizarre question! You really do need to comeback to the UK, rather than believing right wing propaganda in right wing newspapers. Re bombing, you think the British airforce can do what all the other worldwide air forces have failed to do then ? A fair question, Bill. Cameron has alluded to a "hit list" which included Jihadi John and that those two assholes from Cardiff and Aberdeen who were taken out by air strikes. The hitlist contains the names of targets who are British born jihadis, planning attacks on the U.K. If the parliamentary vote gives the go ahead, I think it more likely that these targets will be hit. It is more likely to be successful if British spooks, British Special Forces and the R.A.F. are involved. This will really send out a strong message to anybody dumb enough in this country to be contemplating travel to Syria, that there really is no place to hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasbuster Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 17 hours ago, chipdawg said: I think the cost argument is relevant while there is no clear 'battle plan'. I don't see how what we're planning on doing is going to prevent a Paris-style attack in the UK. The only thing that will do that long term is to win the information battle, stop them spreading their doctrine and stop them organising fighters to travel to Syria and stop people being radicalised Military action to diminish them in Syria and Iraq, fine. Military action to stop terrorist attacks in Europe? That makes no sense to me More important to stop them coming back, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasbuster Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 17 hours ago, chipdawg said: While I certainly don't have an objection to bombing ISIS, I really don't understand why some are so enthusiastic to do so. We don't add any specialist capability, between the US and France we have very similar hardware. We're not likely to defeat ISIS by dropping even more of the same bombs and its pulling us into an increasingly politically fractious situation. From Cameron's point of view I guess there is political capital to be gained with our allies by getting more involved, but is that really justification for the billions of pounds that are about to be spent on military action? There doesn't seem to be an exit strategy or a clear mission statement and we've been here before and it never ends particularly well While I think that military action has a place and is needed to diminish them in Iraq and Syria, it's not going to stop a Paris style attack elsewhere in Europe. In fact i'd say it makes it more likely. The only thing that's going to stop that is an information war, which right now we are losing to a bunch of amateurs with Twitter accounts The attempted attack on the football match in Germany a few weeks ago demonstrates that whether we bomb I.S. or not makes little difference to us being targeted. To my knowledge, Germany have never been involved in bombing any Islamic militants, nor have they had troops on the ground (other than peace keeping duties), within any "Islamic lands". Yet Germany is still regarded as a target. Thanks, indeed, for the near million refugees they are taking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 20 minutes ago, The Gasbuster said: The attempted attack on the football match in Germany a few weeks ago demonstrates that whether we bomb I.S. or not makes little difference to us being targeted. To my knowledge, Germany have never been involved in bombing any Islamic militants, nor have they had troops on the ground (other than peace keeping duties), within any "Islamic lands". Yet Germany is still regarded as a target. Thanks, indeed, for the near million refugees they are taking in. Also, people in Germany are less likely to turn to extremism because they have a good welfare system and integrate migrants well. In France and Belgium migrants are often treated like crap. Not saying it is the sole reason people turn to violence but I think it is a factor worth considering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 31 minutes ago, The Gasbuster said: The attempted attack on the football match in Germany a few weeks ago demonstrates that whether we bomb I.S. or not makes little difference to us being targeted. To my knowledge, Germany have never been involved in bombing any Islamic militants, nor have they had troops on the ground (other than peace keeping duties), within any "Islamic lands". Yet Germany is still regarded as a target. Thanks, indeed, for the near million refugees they are taking in. There were German combat troops in Afghanistan, GB. They are also sending troops to Mali. There have been a few failed plots in Germany, but far fewer threats than in the UK and France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I see the latest YouGov poll has support for bombing falling from 59% to 48%. This is much as I thought would happen as anger over Paris was replaced by rational analysis. Falling support for intervention is clearly why Cammy was so keen to rush through the vote, with less time to discuss than all opposition parties wanted. Hold this vote in a month's time and certain MPs would reflect whether they really wanted to put themselves at odds with their constituents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 2 hours ago, The Gasbuster said: More important to stop them coming back, IMO. Disagree. Once they're there and become fully radicalised and trained, they become someone's problem. They might not be directly our problem, but then again they might. Stop the spread of radicalisation, stop the ability to coordinate and the threat of home-grown, native terrorists (because that's what the France attackers were to all intents and purposes) diminished significantly 2 hours ago, The Gasbuster said: The attempted attack on the football match in Germany a few weeks ago demonstrates that whether we bomb I.S. or not makes little difference to us being targeted. To my knowledge, Germany have never been involved in bombing any Islamic militants, nor have they had troops on the ground (other than peace keeping duties), within any "Islamic lands". Yet Germany is still regarded as a target. Thanks, indeed, for the near million refugees they are taking in. I agree and I don't think "we'll make ourselves a target" is a valid argument. Firstly, because that ship sailed a long time ago and secondly because I believe that well thought out, well targeted military action has a part to play in this. I just don't see that this is well thought out and particularly well targeted as it stands. I think it's mainly about DC gaining political leverage with his pals Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to it in such a way that I'll be out protesting on the streets, I just don't think what is being proposed makes any sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Where is Corbyn?, I don't see him in the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 4 hours ago, Red-Robbo said: I see the latest YouGov poll has support for bombing falling from 59% to 48%. This is much as I thought would happen as anger over Paris was replaced by rational analysis. Falling support for intervention is clearly why Cammy was so keen to rush through the vote, with less time to discuss than all opposition parties wanted. Hold this vote in a month's time and certain MPs would reflect whether they really wanted to put themselves at odds with their constituents. Must admit I'm becoming less sure bombing is the right answer now. Listened to Cameron's speech earlier and it was unconvincing - there's too many unanswered questions. Surely if there is any doubt that this is the correct response to Paris - something with potentially such serious consequences - then the answer has to be 'no'. The Tory MPs behaviour today, by the way, constantly trying to 'intervene' when Corbyn was speaking was appalling. I suppose they take their rude, disrespectful behaviour from their leader with his ridiculous 'terrorist sympathiser' jibe last night. I think members of the public watching that today would've not been impressed with the Tories behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 3 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said: Must admit I'm becoming less sure bombing is the right answer now. Listened to Cameron's speech earlier and it was unconvincing - there's too many unanswered questions. Surely if there is any doubt that this is the correct response to Paris - something with potentially such serious consequences - then the answer has to be 'no'. The Tory MPs behaviour today, by the way, constantly trying to 'intervene' when Corbyn was speaking was appalling. I suppose they take their rude, disrespectful behaviour from their leader with his ridiculous 'terrorist sympathiser' jibe last night. I think members of the public watching that today would've not been impressed with the Tories behaviour. I listened to Cameron and Corbyn on the radio whilst at work. As you say, the bahaviour on the government benches was pathetic. Are they seriously afraid of letting someone with a view different to theirs, actually talk. As for Cameron, well, he's now told over 50% of the British people that they are 'terrorist sympathisers', is there no end to his inept, pathetic childish ways. In my work today people were using the phrase like the old "I'm Spartacus" joke, but replaced by "I'm a terrorist sympathiser". Even people I know that vote Tory, are outraged at what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 Its going to be interesting to see how this thread evolves over time. Surely even Corbyn's strongest critics can agree that he has caused a bit of a stir over the last few weeks which is ultimately good for democracy? The Tories feel threatened by him without any doubt. There was also a coordinated attack on him by the media yesterday making it look like the war would be his responsibility. Whilst the limelight he is getting strengthens some peoples dislike of him, there are more and more people starting to warm to him. It will be very interesting to see how it develops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasbuster Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 29 minutes ago, Portland Bill said: I listened to Cameron and Corbyn on the radio whilst at work. As you say, the bahaviour on the government benches was pathetic. Are they seriously afraid of letting someone with a view different to theirs, actually talk. As for Cameron, well, he's now told over 50% of the British people that they are 'terrorist sympathisers', is there no end to his inept, pathetic childish ways. In my work today people were using the phrase like the old "I'm Spartacus" joke, but replaced by "I'm a terrorist sympathiser". Even people I know that vote Tory, are outraged at what he said. It was indeed, an ill thought out, foolish, cringeworthy thing to say, and he should know better. He should retract that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 6 hours ago, Collis1 said: Also, people in Germany are less likely to turn to extremism because they have a good welfare system and integrate migrants well. In France and Belgium migrants are often treated like crap. Not saying it is the sole reason people turn to violence but I think it is a factor worth considering. Brilliant. "give us free money, or we attack you" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 7 minutes ago, The Batman said: Brilliant. "give us free money, or we attack you" Maybe not as explicit as that. But if you are poor and demorolised you are more likely to be brainwashed by radical groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.