Jeremy Corbyn

[The Batman]

8 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Get a grip Bill, 'some' of us get criticised by 'some' on this thread for hijacking it away from it's title or alleged misinformation and then 'some' make claims like it's true because the terrorists said so on their website.

There is also a breaking a story with Russia releasing what it claims as surveillance of hundreds of tankers coming from Isis held territory in Syria and Iraq and into Turkey via it's border, but the rules prevent me from posting that on this thread, so i've been told.

 

 

Can't see why not, it links to all this.

If so, start a new one. I'd be very interested in that discussion. First I've heard of it. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, The Batman said:

Can't see why not, it links to all this.

If so, start a new one. I'd be very interested in that discussion. First I've heard of it. 

it was actually an attempt at irony mate, i'm sure the person knows who he is.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 minutes ago, The Batman said:

Can't see why not, it links to all this.

If so, start a new one. I'd be very interested in that discussion. First I've heard of it. 

Fill yer boots mate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-releases-proof-turkey-is-smuggling-isis-oil-over-its-border-a6757651.html

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Your'e missing my point, John Woodcock is saying it is ridiculous having a leader who would never support war whatever the circumstances, which is quite obviously the case with Corbyn, it means he almost always going to be at odds with many in his own party.

it has nothing to do with his pacifist views.

 

I don't think that's "quite obviously the case" and that isn't the stance that Corbyn himself says he would take.

A case for war has to be made. This one hasn't. 

Gesture politics. Pompous "our place in the world" politics that should have ended with the "send in the gunboats" Victorians.

Team UK: World Police  

Sadly we've seen from Blair and Brown how sending people to kill other people makes wimpy politicians feel all macho.

There's an appetite for it.

John Woodcock should stop acting like the last bit of his name and respect people who disagree with him. Especially when they have been elected democratically by the party he purports to represent. 

 

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

I don't think that's "quite obviously the case" and that isn't the stance that Corbyn himself says he would take.

A case for war has to be made. This one hasn't. 

Gesture politics. Pompous "our place in the world" politics that should have ended with the "send in the gunboats" Victorians.

Team UK: World Police  

Sadly we've seen from Blair and Brown how sending people to kill other people makes wimpy politicians feel all macho.

There's an appetite for it.

John Woodcock should stop acting like the last bit of his name and respect people who disagree with him. Especially when they have been elected democratically by the party he purports to represent. 

 

 

Respect, should go both ways Robbo, he should respect their views as well and some of the abuse and death threats that labour mp's have been receiving are beyond the pale, this has been going on for 4 months and Corbyn appears to have done nothing to stop it and Corbyn stating that supporters should vent their feelings on social media hasn't helped with those threats, but of course i'm sure he didn't expect that to happen did he?.

Just an observation here but take a look back over this thread and the Paris massacre thread and see what side of the argument most of the abuse is coming from, as I said just an observation mind.

Well i'm confused, a man who if he was prime minister has said he could not ever envisage a circumstance when he would authorise troops to go to war and it would have on a level with WW2 before he would consider it, so what is his stance, actually?.

 

[cityexile]

16 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Respect, should go both ways Robbo, he should respect their views as well and some of the abuse and death threats that labour mp's have been receiving are beyond the pale, this has been going on for 4 months and Corbyn appears to have done nothing to stop it and Corbyn stating that supporters should vent their feelings on social media hasn't helped with those threats, but of course i'm sure he didn't expect that to happen did he?.

Just an observation here but take a look back over this thread and the Paris massacre thread and see what side of the argument most of the abuse is coming from, as I said just an observation mind.

Well i'm confused, a man who if he was prime minister has said he could not ever envisage a circumstance when he would authorise troops to go to war and it would have on a level with WW2 before he would consider it, so what is his stance, actually?.

 

In fairness, what he has said today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/672139608705130497

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, cityexile said:

In fairness, what he has said today.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/672139608705130497

 

Better late than never I suppose.

 

[Red-Robbo]

21 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Respect, should go both ways Robbo, he should respect their views as well and some of the abuse and death threats that labour mp's have been receiving are beyond the pale, this has been going on for 4 months and Corbyn appears to have done nothing to stop it and Corbyn stating that supporters should vent their feelings on social media hasn't helped with those threats, but of course i'm sure he didn't expect that to happen did he?.

Just an observation here but take a look back over this thread and the Paris massacre thread and see what side of the argument most of the abuse is coming from, as I said just an observation mind.

Well i'm confused, a man who if he was prime minister has said he could not ever envisage a circumstance when he would authorise troops to go to war and it would have on a level with WW2 before he would consider it, so what is his stance, actually?.

 

He couldn't envisage pressing the nuclear button. I'm sure he's down with the concept of a just war. WWII for example. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Wow Hilary Benn, what a speech, I have never heard applause like it ever from the house of common.

Change your leader now, it's not too late.

 

[Portland Bill]

5 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Wow Hilary Benn, what a speech, I have never heard applause like it ever from the house of common.

Change your leader now, it's not too late.

 

You mean Benn instead of Cameron?

it was certainly a very passionate speech.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

8 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

You mean Benn instead of Cameron?

it was certainly a very passionate speech.

I will ignore the first sentence, you little tinker.

Labour are crying out for a credible leader and the UK are crying out for a very strong and credible alternative IMO and he looks to me to be that man, if labour are really looking to maybe even beat the tories in 2020, they have to change course.

PS:- Benn is already getting twitter abuse.

PPS:- He might even turn me.

 

[cityexile]

19 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Wow Hilary Benn, what a speech, I have never heard applause like it ever from the house of common.

Change your leader now, it's not too late.

 

I agree. I actually think both final speakers were better than the first two. Disagree with his conclusion, but a very good and fine contribution.

[Portland Bill]

2 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I will ignore the first sentence, you little tinker.

Labour are crying out for a credible leader and the UK are crying out for a very strong and credible alternative IMO and he looks to me to be that man, if labour are really looking to maybe even beat the tories in 2020, they have to change course.

PS:- Benn is already getting twitter abuse.

 

I'm not sure his Dad would have been too happy, but you can only speak as you feel.

As for the leadership, time will tell, but I don't think his speech will have gone down very well with the hardcore membership.

Time will tell if his speach will be remembered as a great one or ridiculed as an out of touch one, in this I mean that it will all depend if the air strikes work or not.

I guess we won't be able to totally judge it for a year or two.

I really hope the air strikes do work, I'm not convinced they will, but I imagine we will all be on here over the next couple of years when the outcome will become clearer.

[cityexile]

Majority 174, about 60ish or so Labour voting yes.

Interesting comments about Benn Snr. One of my issues with Corbyn to be honest. Even given his views, his ability to inspire when on his feet is not that great. Benn Snr would have nailed it from that perspective!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Portland Bill said:

I'm not sure his Dad would have been too happy, but you can only speak as you feel.

As for the leadership, time will tell, but I don't think his speech will have gone down very well with the hardcore membership.

Time will tell if his speach will be remembered as a great one or ridiculed as an out of touch one, in this I mean that it will all depend if the air strikes work or not.

I guess we won't be able to totally judge it for a year or two.

I really hope the air strikes do work, I'm not convinced they will, but I imagine we will all be on here over the next couple of years when the outcome will become clearer.

I suspect his Dad would actually support the fact that his son is own man, I always thought that that was what politics was all about.

The problem is the hardcore membership will kill the party if they remain on this tact and 2020 will give the tories a bigger mandate to carry out their evil ways and Corbyn can dress tonight however he likes 67 MP's voted against him and 7 abstained and even the Lib dums voted in favour and tomorrow night it could get even worse for him.

He might think that he is doing a great job and of course Collis is convinced, but deep down Bill even you must see the writing on the wall, the public do not trust him and they do not like some of nastier side of the party who have crawled out and in some cases re-crawled out of the woodwork.

[Red-Robbo]

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Respect, should go both ways Robbo, he should respect their views as well and some of the abuse and death threats that labour mp's have been receiving are beyond the pale, this has been going on for 4 months and Corbyn appears to have done nothing to stop it and Corbyn stating that supporters should vent their feelings on social media hasn't helped with those threats, but of course i'm sure he didn't expect that to happen did he?.

Just an observation here but take a look back over this thread and the Paris massacre thread and see what side of the argument most of the abuse is coming from, as I said just an observation mind.

Well i'm confused, a man who if he was prime minister has said he could not ever envisage a circumstance when he would authorise troops to go to war and it would have on a level with WW2 before he would consider it, so what is his stance, actually?.

 

Well what's worse: being trolled by a few nutters on Twitter or being trolled by 2/3 of the national press, a la Corbyn. 

A predictably depressing evening,  proving for the millionth time how out of touch MPs are with the real world and public opinion. 

And I suspect Hillary Benn's dad is on spin cycle 500 in his grave.  Give a passionate speech by all means,  but be on the side of the common good. 

We now face the prospects of millions if not billions spunked away on an open-ended campaign with little chance of making much difference on the ground,  but every possibility of Jihadist propaganda coups and gruesome deaths for British personnel. 

[chipdawg]

The best actual argument for the bombing I heard yesterday was Margaret Beckett (who I have very little time for in general) when she made the point that France is one of our closest allies and has specifically requested our help. Can you imagine the headlines in The Mail or The Sun if a Paris-style attack had happened in London and we asked the French for their military assistance and they turned us down? 

As impressive as speeches by the likes of Hillary Benn were, they still didn't address the basic points that those opposed to bombing have made; chiefly, what are the objectives, how does this achieve them and is this the best way to defeat IS? For all its commendable passion, other said nothing that hadn't been said before by less skilled orators. But the Westminster bubble will not be burst

However, my primary feeling after yesterday is that any remaining shreds of respect I had for our political system has died. A day that started with the Prime Minister calling anyone that disagrees with him a terrorist sympathiser, moved on to MPs heckling each other like rowdy school boys who've had too much sugar and finished with Labour activists making threats against MPs who didn't do their bidding has killed the last bit of faith I had in our democratic process

Actually, I'll save the worst of my vitriol for the idiots stood outside parliament chanting "Peace Not War'" over and over. Aside from the fact that whenever they showed them on the news it was ******* annoying, it adds even less to the debate than Cameron's 'Team America 2: LETS BLOW STUFF UP FOR REASONS I SHALL COME UP WITH LATER!' rhetoric 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Well what's worse: being trolled by a few nutters on Twitter or being trolled by 2/3 of the national press, a la Corbyn. 

A predictably depressing evening,  proving for the millionth time how out of touch MPs are with the real world and public opinion. 

And I suspect Hillary Benn's dad is on spin cycle 500 in his grave.  Give a passionate speech by all means,  but be on the side of the common good. 

We now face the prospects of millions if not billions spunked away on an open-ended campaign with little chance of making much difference on the ground,  but every possibility of Jihadist propaganda coups and gruesome deaths for British personnel. 

Wow, what angry rant RR, show me where 2/3 of the national press has issued death threats to Corbyn?.

Well for once they were in touch with public opinion.

As I said earlier I suspect Hilary Benn's dad would actually be proud that he raised a son who was his own man and spoke and voted with conscience and not just followed a party line that he didn't agree with, that is democracy and that is what we vote for our politicians to do and I seem to recall that they actually once voted against each other before possibly over UK bombing of Iraq, so that statement that has been echoed all over cyber space is just pure nonsense and vindictive IMO.

The coming weeks, months and years will prove whether your last sentence is true.

RR yes you are angry but I believe you are better than this particular rant.

Anyway have a read of this, this is a good, sensible and thoughtful article about Hilary Benn and it's even from the guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/29/hilary-benn-tony-families-betrayal-rightwing

[The Gasbuster]

2 hours ago, chipdawg said:

The best actual argument for the bombing I heard yesterday was Margaret Beckett (who I have very little time for in general) when she made the point that France is one of our closest allies and has specifically requested our help. Can you imagine the headlines in The Mail or The Sun if a Paris-style attack had happened in London and we asked the French for their military assistance and they turned us down? 

As impressive as speeches by the likes of Hillary Benn were, they still didn't address the basic points that those opposed to bombing have made; chiefly, what are the objectives, how does this achieve them and is this the best way to defeat IS? For all its commendable passion, other said nothing that hadn't been said before by less skilled orators. But the Westminster bubble will not be burst

However, my primary feeling after yesterday is that any remaining shreds of respect I had for our political system has died. A day that started with the Prime Minister calling anyone that disagrees with him a terrorist sympathiser, moved on to MPs heckling each other like rowdy school boys who've had too much sugar and finished with Labour activists making threats against MPs who didn't do their bidding has killed the last bit of faith I had in our democratic process

Actually, I'll save the worst of my vitriol for the idiots stood outside parliament chanting "Peace Not War'" over and over. Aside from the fact that whenever they showed them on the news it was ******* annoying, it adds even less to the debate than Cameron's 'Team America 2: LETS BLOW STUFF UP FOR REASONS I SHALL COME UP WITH LATER!' rhetoric 

Absolutely.

And also the far left idiots who are now trolling the Labour M.P.'s who voted with the government, with threats made to the individuals and their staff.

And this after Corbyn called for an end to the abuse and intimidation when he was first elected leader.

Simpletons.

[BCFC Jimmer]

19 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

As I said earlier I suspect Hilary Benn's dad would actually be proud that he raised a son who was his own man and spoke and voted with conscience and not just followed a party line that he didn't agree with, that is democracy and that is what we vote for our politicians to do and I seem to recall that they actually once voted against each other before possibly over UK bombing of Iraq, so that statement that has been echoed all over cyber space is just pure nonsense and vindictive IMO.

 

Even though I disagreed with many of his points I'm willing to take the moral high ground and say that it took Hillary Benn great courage to make that speech last night (if he truly believes he is right). If Hilary has any shred of human empathy he will be hurting right now because he has gone against everything his old man stood for and that can't be a nice feeling.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

43 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

Even though I disagreed with many of his points I'm willing to take the moral high ground and say that it took Hillary Benn great courage to make that speech last night (if he truly believes he is right). If Hilary has any shred of human empathy he will be hurting right now because he has gone against everything his old man stood for and that can't be a nice feeling.

of course he will be hurting and I will take an even loftier moral high ground, even though Blair employed lies and subterfuge in the 2003 Iraq vote, I expect that he is hurting to this day not for what he did per se but for the decision to send UK troops to war, British politicians may be a lot of things (and you know my opinion on most of them) but I do not believe war mongering is one of them.

But your last sentence I cannot agree with, he is own man and his father would have been the first person to respect that, I find it distasteful that others cannot see that and vindictive that people are attacking him with it. I had a long 2/3 hour long telephone conversation with my son last week, his views are different to mine on this matter but I respect his view and he's my son and I am proud of him, love him and celebrate the diversity in our views, why should a son be judged on his father or vice versa, I thought those days were consigned to Victorian type values.

Mind you if my son had become a gashead all bets would be off.

PS:- For the record Corbyn had to submit to a free vote in the end and that was the right decision and in making that decision any pressure from activists to remove any of those 67 MP's will be reprehensible, wrong and undemocratic. To be honest the 7 tories who voted against were more brave than the 67 labour MP's who voted for on a free vote, the tories were whipped last night, which IMO was wrong.

[Guest]

That was Hilary stepping out of the shadow of his father and despite him being at odds with what his father believed I think as EMB said he'd be proud of him standing up for what he believes in - just like what TB many times before against, ironically, the Labour leadership of the past.

I also thought Alan Johnstone had a fairly good speech and another what if he'd become leader moment. 

Press haven't bashed Ed Milliband even though he voted against - wonder if he'd have allowed a free vote? 

[BCFC Jimmer]

58 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

of course he will be hurting and I will take an even loftier moral high ground, even though Blair employed lies and subterfuge in the 2003 Iraq vote, I expect that he is hurting to this day not for what he did per se but for the decision to send UK troops to war, British politicians may be a lot of things (and you know my opinion on most of them) but I do not believe war mongering is one of them.

But your last sentence I cannot agree with, he is own man and his father would have been the first person to respect that, I find it distasteful that others cannot see that and vindictive that people are attacking him with it. I had a long 2/3 hour long telephone conversation with my son last week, his views are different to mine on this matter but I respect his view and he's my son and I am proud of him, love him and celebrate the diversity in our views, why should a son be judged on his father or vice versa, I thought those days were consigned to Victorian type values.

 

His father isn't around anymore though. I am not a psychologist but I think there will be an element of guilt in his head. Even if his Dad did tell him that he should have his own views etc.

The people attacking him is not cool.  But once again, it has been blown out of proportion. The average Twitter troll is not representative of everyone who didn't want to bomb Syria. Its ridiculous to bring it up all the time.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

11 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

His father isn't around anymore though. I am not a psychologist but I think there will be an element of guilt in his head. Even if his Dad did tell him that he should have his own views etc.

The people attacking him is not cool.  But once again, it has been blown out of proportion. The average Twitter troll is not representative of everyone who didn't want to bomb Syria. Its ridiculous to bring it up all the time.

Well let's see shall we and count up how many of the 67 labour MP's who were given a free vote and will end up being deselected and the 7 tory MP's who actually defied the party whip and won't be deselected. it's not ridiculous to you because once more it does not show the labour party in a good light but it is still happening today, let's see how many are identified and if they are labour party members actually expelled, I won't hold my breath.

The guilt that Hilary Benn may or may not be suffering is personal and will have sweet FA to do with the stupid/ignorant people talking about his father turning in his grave, because those stupid/ignorant people obviously did not know the real Tony Benn at all and saying that is frankly not only pathetic but unnecessary and vindictive.

[Red-Robbo]

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Wow, what angry rant RR, show me where 2/3 of the national press has issued death threats to Corbyn?.

Well for once they were in touch with public opinion.

As I said earlier I suspect Hilary Benn's dad would actually be proud that he raised a son who was his own man and spoke and voted with conscience and not just followed a party line that he didn't agree with, that is democracy and that is what we vote for our politicians to do and I seem to recall that they actually once voted against each other before possibly over UK bombing of Iraq, so that statement that has been echoed all over cyber space is just pure nonsense and vindictive IMO.

The coming weeks, months and years will prove whether your last sentence is true.

RR yes you are angry but I believe you are better than this particular rant.

Anyway have a read of this, this is a good, sensible and thoughtful article about Hilary Benn and it's even from the guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/29/hilary-benn-tony-families-betrayal-rightwing

The best argument against bombing was from David Cameron actually.

He made it on the 4th of October in the Commons when Russia began its bombing campaign in Syria.

THEN, just a few weeks ago, he said bombing Syria will increase radicalisation and increase the risk of international terrorism.

Obviously the sort of bombs our planes will drop will be totally different to those pesky Russian ones, eh, Cammy, you hypocritical idiot.

PS: If only 48% of the public support bombing then any decision to bomb is out of touch with public opinion. When our first pilot gets burned alive, even that number will tumble.

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Well let's see shall we and count up how many of the 67 labour MP's who were given a free vote and will end up being deselected and the 7 tory MP's who actually defied the party whip and won't be deselected. it's not ridiculous to you because once more it does not show the labour party in a good light but it is still happening today, let's see how many are identified and if they are labour party members actually expelled, I won't hold my breath.

The guilt that Hilary Benn may or may not be suffering is personal and will have sweet FA to do with the stupid/ignorant people talking about his father turning in his grave, because those stupid/ignorant people obviously did not know the real Tony Benn at all and saying that is frankly not only pathetic but unnecessary and vindictive.

Actually I did meet Tony Benn on a couple of occasions, and debated the Afghanistan invasion (at the time I was foolishly in favour) with him during an event at the Left Field in the Glastonbury Festival. 

He was vehemently opposed to Western military interventions in the Middle East. Said it was perhaps the worse things that had happened in the last 50 years.

So I feel it might be foolish/ignorant to reckon that he would have been a proud father last night.

Benn was a very even-tempered man and came from a family which contains many Tories and (historically) free trade Liberals. You can tolerate your relations' political views without necessarily approving of them.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

29 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

The best argument against bombing was from David Cameron actually.

He made it on the 4th of October in the Commons when Russia began its bombing campaign in Syria.

THEN, just a few weeks ago, he said bombing Syria will increase radicalisation and increase the risk of international terrorism.

Obviously the sort of bombs our planes will drop will be totally different to those pesky Russian ones, eh, Cammy, you hypocritical idiot.

PS: If only 48% of the public support bombing then any decision to bomb is out of touch with public opinion. When our first pilot gets burned alive, even that number will tumble.

All makes sense apart from the 48% against 31%, it's like any election until the don't knows and can't be bothered's decide it's a majority.

I know your angry, i'm not particularly happy but I support the air strikes, I suspect judging by the past 20 odd years, you will probably be proved correct, but i'm not trying to imagine things before they actually happen.

 

22 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Actually I did meet Tony Benn on a couple of occasions, and debated the Afghanistan invasion (at the time I was foolishly in favour) with him during an event at the Left Field in the Glastonbury Festival. 

He was vehemently opposed to Western military interventions in the Middle East. Said it was perhaps the worse things that had happened in the last 50 years.

So I feel it might be foolish/ignorant to reckon that he would have been a proud father last night.

Benn was a very even-tempered man and came from a family which contains manty Tories and (historically) free trade Liberals. You can tolerate your relations' political views without necessarily approving of them.

So if I was to say that your father was turning in his grave over your comments about Hilary Benn or you were to say that my father was turning in his grave because of my support of the bombing, that's fair game?.

They opposed each other and voted against each other I believe over bombing Iraq or some other such vote, I can't recall Mr Benn senior publicly criticising his son, he had more class than that, sadly something missing from politics today.

PS:- i'm an atheist so the premise of one turning in his grave doesn't work for me anyway.

I voted differently to Hillary Benn. Using his father's death to make a political point – "spinning in his grave" – is repulsive.

Stewart McDonald MP

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

All makes sense apart from the 48% against 31%, it's like any election until the don't knows and can't be bothered's decide it's a majority.

I know your angry, i'm not particularly happy but I support the air strikes, I suspect judging by the past 20 odd years, you will probably be proved correct, but i'm not trying to imagine things before they actually happen.

 

Surely if you are going to try to justify something actively being done (as opposed to passively remaining as was) you really need to have more than 50% of people to approve it? Particularly something as grave as going to war.

It's rather bizarre that we have a system where we ask the public in a referendum if they want to change the way their votes are counted (expecting them to take in the implications of a fairly complicated electoral process) but only a few hundred people are required to decide if we commit British armed forces to battle - and they don't need to consult with anyone else at all.

As for Tony Benn, well, we'll leave that discussion parked here, but suffice to say, he undoubtedly wouldn't be happy today.

 

PS: the applause surprised me as wasn't it only a few months ago SNP MPs were "told off" for applauding their leader in a speech and told parliamentary etiquette only allowed members to shout "hear hear" and wave ballot papers about? I guess different rules apply in life if you're supporting the pig botherer.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Surely if you are going to try to justify something actively being done (as opposed to passively remaining as was) you really need to have more than 50% of people to approve it? Particularly something as grave as going to war.

It's rather bizarre that we have a system where we ask the public in a referendum if they want to change the way their votes are counted (expecting them to take in the implications of a fairly complicated electoral process) but only a few hundred people are required to decide if we commit British armed forces to battle - and they don't need to consult with anyone else at all.

As for Tony Benn, well, we'll leave that discussion parked here, but suffice to say, he undoubtedly wouldn't be happy today.

 

PS: the applause surprised me as wasn't it only a few months ago SNP MPs were "told off" for applauding their leader in a speech and told parliamentary etiquette only allowed members to shout "hear hear" and wave ballot papers about? I guess different rules apply in life if you're supporting the pig botherer.

Perhaps your anger should be directed at the labour party, 3 duff choices of leader in row has allowed the tories to get away with what they did with their now sadly departed lib dum mates and now on their own and come 2020 it is likely to become even worse.

Perhaps a credible leader might have returned a labour government in either or both of last 2 general elections, who knows and then last nights vote might have been quite different.

Labour is eating itself and today it is obvious that people from all of the left wing parties who were banished years ago are looking to come back into the labour party, of course that worked well last time didn't it?.

PS:- The best news today was knowing that Ken Livingstone was never sodomised by 6 men at a gay orgy.

 

[cityexile]

Interesting comments on Tony Benn who I met more than once.

Thought this was an interesting link. When you could still hear a politician you knew you disagreed with on much, but still respect entirely their passion and belief. Do note who is sitting in the background listening to Tony...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34996673