Not In Possession of all the Facts

[Esmond Million's Bung]

10 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

If he wasn't fit why was he on the bench for every game? Agard's hamstring could go at any time, why risk it for 19 minutes against Leeds and virtually nothing in the other games? And Cotterill's explanation may suggest that's why he brought in Cox. So why not give Cox more game time? Before Saturday, the Reading loanee had only played 6 minutes, for City against Brighton, since August 25.

Cotterill has made a series of bad calls this season that have cost City. Last night the right man started, something the majority of fans hoped for, including me and it paid off handsomely.

I may very well be proved wrong and Cotterill will transform our fortunes this season, but he'll only do that by managing his resources better and improving tactically, something that he deserves credit for, from last night's performance. And as a City fan I hope that continues.

 

 

Bearing in mind Agard has been playing development games to gain match fitness, how else is going get opportunities to reacclimatise himself to the pace of league games, bit by bit?.

if Agard wasn't fit, then expect that Cox isn't fully fit not having played much.

Just be happy that we now have 3 fully fit strikers instead of just 2 and maybe a 4th to come.

Oh the irony of the highlighted portion Agard was last seasons scapegoat for many just like Wilbraham this season and now he's the messiah.

[spudski]

22 hours ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

Saw some punditry earlier this season where the anchorman said to Gary Neville "supporters I spoke to on the way in were saying Man United should do blah blah blah....", to which Neville cut him squarely of and by saying "to be honest with you, most football supporters don't really know anything about football" to which I spat my dinner out laughing.

Think GN let the cat out the bag with that one.  

I suspect most professional football people take the view that football supporters are best seen but not heard.

Now where's my popularity medal. . . . ?

And Gary Neville is spot on....all most football fans see is 90 minutes of football....So much goes on at a Club during the week that effects how a team performs in those 90 mins. Fans have no idea....and the Pros want to keep it that way. Football is a closed shop...

[WTFiGO!?!]

24 minutes ago, spudski said:

And Gary Neville is spot on....all most football fans see is 90 minutes of football....So much goes on at a Club during the week that effects how a team performs in those 90 mins. Fans have no idea....and the Pros want to keep it that way. Football is a closed shop...

Lay people don't express technical views on other jobs such as teaching, nursing or bloody air-traffic controlling.  Neither would trained, experienced, professionals be expected to batter an eyelid  should the general public take it on themselves to have a view.

I laughed due to Neville's forthrightness.  He was, as you say, spot on.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

Lay people don't express technical views on other jobs such as teaching, nursing or bloody air-traffic controlling.  Neither would trained, experienced, professionals be expected to batter an eyelid  should the general public take it on themselves to have a view.

I laughed due to Neville's forthrightness.  He was, as you say, spot on.

An interesting slant on it....Those who work in football realise they are onto a good thing. Most are not the sharpest tool in the box. It is very much a job for the boys profession. Many look out for their own.

Take management and coaching....the majority of have played Professionally....Football as a business has created a scenario where it has made the general public believe that to be a good manager, you have to have been a Pro before. There is no proof of this....it's just been accepted.

There are people champing at the bit to work for Professional Clubs....but unless you know someone, chances are you won't get in.

It's definitely an old Gentlemans Club.

[Red-Robbo]

14 minutes ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

Lay people don't express technical views on other jobs such as teaching, nursing or bloody air-traffic controlling.  Neither would trained, experienced, professionals be expected to batter an eyelid  should the general public take it on themselves to have a view.

I laughed due to Neville's forthrightness.  He was, as you say, spot on.

Really? I expect most teachers would say lay people are always expressing views on how they do their jobs. Same with my former profession. Everyone's a ******* expert! 

With football,  it's an entertainment business. Players get their obscene wealth courtesy of the public's shelling out to watch them live or on TV and buying products endorsed by them. Opinions go with what they do. If they didn't,  who'd bother to watch and feel any sort of emotional connection with a bunch of blokes kicking a bag of wind about?

[Davefevs]

@spudski I was chatting to someone about Mark Warburton in the close season (when he went to Rangers) and they were saying how incredible it was for someone to come from outside of football (City Trader) and get a job at Brentford and then Rangers.

Although he'd not graced the higher echelons of the pro game, he had started as an apprentice at Leicester and played for the successful Enfield team in the Alliance / Conference......so not really an outsider.

But it is definitely jobs for the boys.

I would love to spend a week at a pro club as a fly on the wall.

I do however read a fair few books on variety of football topics, from David Conn (Football Finances - incredible read) to Charles Hughes (Tactics, yes, him of the long ball) to Autobiographies / Diaries from the likes of Garry Nelson, Ben Smith, Simon Jordan (I'm sure a bit of BS in it, but fascinating).  As you say, the 90 minutes on a Saturday is a small part of it.

Just read Michael Calvin's Living On The Volcano - some very interesting chapters.

[WTFiGO!?!]

11 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Really? I expect most teachers would say lay people are always expressing views on how they do their jobs. Same with my former profession. Everyone's a ******* expert! 

With football,  it's an entertainment business. Players get their obscene wealth courtesy of the public's shelling out to watch them live or on TV and buying products endorsed by them. Opinions go with what they do. If they didn't,  who'd bother to watch and feel any sort of emotional connection with a bunch of blokes kicking a bag of wind about?

Yeah but do you really take on board advice about the technical quality of an article you've written from any Tom, Dick or Harry?  Not whether they agree with you or not.  Do the public really analyse lesson plans, teaching styles etc and try to invoke change?  

Football is an entertainment business and part of the package is that we get to talk regular bollocks to each other.  Gary Neville see's it for exactly what it is.

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@spudski I was chatting to someone about Mark Warburton in the close season (when he went to Rangers) and they were saying how incredible it was for someone to come from outside of football (City Trader) and get a job at Brentford and then Rangers.

Although he'd not graced the higher echelons of the pro game, he had started as an apprentice at Leicester and played for the successful Enfield team in the Alliance / Conference......so not really an outsider.

But it is definitely jobs for the boys.

I would love to spend a week at a pro club as a fly on the wall.

I do however read a fair few books on variety of football topics, from David Conn (Football Finances - incredible read) to Charles Hughes (Tactics, yes, him of the long ball) to Autobiographies / Diaries from the likes of Garry Nelson, Ben Smith, Simon Jordan (I'm sure a bit of BS in it, but fascinating).  As you say, the 90 minutes on a Saturday is a small part of it.

Just read Michael Calvin's Living On The Volcano - some very interesting chapters.

You might like this as well mate...I especially like the point about Football Clubs being run by successful businessman, but they run the football club with their heart and not their head....no better than what a fan on the street would do. I often chuckle when fans on here say SL knows better than anyone how to run a football club...I beg to differ...if he ran his financial business like he has done with BCFC he wouldn't be the rich man he is now. Football is emotive...you've somehow got to take that emotion out of the equation when making decisions...like in normal business.

Quote....

Since the English Premier League was formed in 1992, football finances have boomed to the extent that £1m is now small change. However, it is still the case that buying a football club is unlikely to yield much of a return. Despite the significant TV and other commercial revenues, football clubs in England's top flight still struggle to break even. This is ironic, given the goal of setting up the Premier League was to stabilise club finances.

According to the latest Deloitte Annual Review of Football Finance, only half the clubs in the Premier League made an operating profit in the last football season 2012-13 (that is, profits not including net transfer expenditure).

Overall, operating profits for the 20 Premier League teams were just 4% of revenues, and when the net costs of player trading are added, there are large overall net losses.

In the lower divisions where revenues are a fraction of that of the Premier League, the situation is not pretty. In the Championship, which is the second tier of football in England, only three clubs made an operating profit last season and only five made a net profit once player trades are taken into account.

These figures belie the fact that most of England's largest football clubs are run by successful businessmen who make plenty of money in other walks of life.

Furthermore, English clubs are in high demand from foreign investors, with 11 of the 20 Premier League teams currently owned by foreigners. And 13 out of the 24 teams in the Championship are also foreign-owned.

So, given the appalling financial returns, why do people buy football clubs?

Heart over head

One explanation is that it has nothing to do with money. Mike Ashley, the chairman of Newcastle United and proprietor of Sports Direct, does not appear concerned by the fact that he is unlikely to get back the £200m he has loaned to the club. He is, after all, a supporter.

Simon Jordan, in his recent autobiography, tells the story of how owning a football club can go terribly wrong.

Jordan amassed a fortune of £75m in the early days of the mobile phone revolution. In 2000, he paid £10m to take control of South London football team Crystal Palace, becoming the youngest football club chairman at the age of 32.

He was warned by many not to do it, but having watched the club since his childhood, could not resist. Fast-forward 10 years and the club was in administration and Jordan's personal wealth largely wiped out.

Even though Jordan states he tried to run the club as a hard-headed business, ambition was irresistible and in football, success comes at a high price.

Many owners are simply fans of the clubs they own or have strong ties to the local community. While in the business world, the head can rule the heart, it can be the opposite when it comes to football.

Making a mark

But this does not explain why so many foreigners, without a sentimental attachment to a particular club, are literally queuing up to buy them.

It is reported that Roman Abramovich, the Russian owner of Chelsea, has written off more than £1bn he ploughed into the club since acquiring it in 2003. Catching him up fast is Sheikh Mansour from Abu Dhabi, who has invested close to £1bn in Manchester City since 2008.

Most of the serious money flowing into football recently has come from the Middle East. The Qatar Investment Authority (the country's sovereign wealth fund) bought the French Ligue 1 side Paris St Germain in 2011 and has gone about transforming them in the same way Sheikh Mansour has Manchester City.

According to Deloitte, seven of the 20 largest football clubs in the world by revenue are sponsored by Middle East airlines including Barclelona (Qatar Airlines), Real Madrid, Paris St Germain, Arsenal, AC Milan (all Fly Emirates) and Manchester City (Etihad).

In fact, when Manchester City recently played Arsenal the game was described as Abu Dhabi (Etihad) v Dubai (Fly Emirates).

After all, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Qatar and Bahrain are all small but rich Gulf states with global ambitions. Football is seen as an important way of expanding their brands, but of course they are also in competition with each other.

Some have suggested that football is simply being used as a geopolitical tool, with many of these investments ultimately government-backed through sovereign wealth funds.

Even though Qatar has no football history or infrastructure, it won the right to host the 2022 World Cup and will lavish a huge budget on the tournament.

Measured by GDP per head, Qatar is the richest nation on earth, but is small, has substantial oil reserves and happens to be situated in a relatively unstable part of the world. By using football, they are putting themselves on the map and even adding a bit more security.

A similar argument might explain why rich individuals buy football clubs. Chelsea Football Club has cost Roman Abramovich a lot of money, but at the same time has made him into a highly recognisable figure around the world.

In recent years, the life of a Russian oligarch could be described as precarious. It goes to show that being successful in business doesn't necessarily make you well-known - but buying a football club can give you celebrity, notoriety and access to important people.

Making money and cutting costs

The accounts do not make for good reading, but on the face of it, there is little reason why football clubs cannot be profitable. In England, Premier League clubs are proverbial cash cows with three strong sources of revenue - TV money, commercial activities and gate receipts.

The Glazer Family bought Manchester United in 2006, recognising the immense value of its global brand as a cash generator and the opportunities to enhance it even further.

The cost of buying the club was loaded on to the club itself, with the revenues it generates used to pay down the debt and interest that the Glazers undertook to buy the club. Eventually, the hope is that the club will essentially pay for itself leaving its American owners in possession of a multi-billion pound asset.

It is rumoured that Arsenal, the North London football club, has substantial cash reserves of over £120m. In this case, the American Stan Kroenke, who owns about 63% of the shares in the club, could award himself a nice dividend if so desired.

Dividends are not the only way to make money from football clubs. When it was speculated that a Middle East consortium was willing to pay £1.5bn for Arsenal Football Club, Kroenke would have made a capital gain of £400m on his shares.

Therefore, growing revenues could increase the value of a club just like any other business. In the English Premier League, commercial revenues have grown strongly in recent years, as clubs look to cash in on the worldwide popularity of the competition.

Sponsorship deals now extend beyond the typical areas of shirts and kit manufacturers to areas such as stadium naming rights.

Not all the commercialisation is popular with supporters. Newcastle United's passionate following was probably not too happy when their home ground since 1892 changed its name from St. James' Park to the Sports Direct Arena. The venue has since reverted to its former name.

Vincent Tan, the Malaysian owner of Cardiff City, has caused a bit of outrage with his new branding for the club. The traditional blue strip was changed to red, and the club emblem changed from a bluebird to a dragon. The justification is to improve the marketability of the club in Asia.

Ditto the Hull City fans, who next year may be supporters of Hull Tigers.

The main reason English Premier League clubs fail to make profits, though, is due to strong growth in wages. Last season, the average ratio of the wage bill to turnover was 70%.

Since the inception of the Premier League more than 20 years ago, 80% of the increase in revenues has flowed into wages. Deloitte argues that controlling wage costs are the key to financial stability in football. But given the huge scale of club revenues, a moderate amount of cost control could make clubs quite profitable.

Playing the lottery

The financial gulf between the English Premier League and the Championship is huge. The new TV deal that came into force this year will widen the gap further.

The three season deal between BSkyB and BT Sports is worth over £3bn, a whopping increase of 70% on the previous three-season contract held between BSkyB and ESPN.

Last season, the club finishing bottom of the Premier League had to make do with £39m in TV money. This year, under the new deal, it will be £63m. This is more than Manchester United received from winning the league last year, although this year's victors will see their TV bonanza come close to £100m.

The Premier League makes solidarity payments to clubs in the lower divisions, but these are paltry in comparison. Championship clubs will receive £2.3m each, whereas those in the third and fourth tiers each receive only £360,000 and £240,000 respectively.

Since the collapse of ITV Digital in 2002, the TV contract for lower tier clubs has been almost negligible.

Because revenues are so much lower, the strains on club finances are much harsher. Last season, the average ratio of wage bill to turnover was 90% for Championship clubs.

The gap in funding makes promotion from the Championship to the Premier League a huge financial deal. As a result, the Championship playoff game, a cup final of sorts where the winner gets promoted, is regarded as the most lucrative in football - worth £120m in TV money alone.

This is because even if the club only spends one season in the Premier League (picking up a minimum of around £60m), it will also receive £60m over the next four seasons in parachute payments to cushion the financial cost of relegation.

This is a unique situation in the European football leagues. It is true the overall pot of TV money is greatest in the English Premier League, but importantly, it is more equitably distributed.

The collective rights agreement between all the clubs means that clubs who finish towards the bottom of the league will be assured of a good share of the money.

In other European leagues, TV rights are often negotiated on an individual club rather than a collective basis. This means that TV money is concentrated in the hands of the best supported clubs.

For instance, in Spain, Barcelona and Real Madrid account for about 60% of the total. Likewise, in Italy, AC Milan and Juventus do very well relative to the rest.

This might explain why there has been so much interest in Championship clubs. Any team getting promoted to the Premier League enjoys a huge financial windfall. Buying a Championship club is therefore like taking a punt on property in an up-and-coming part of town.

Leeds United have a illustrious past and a strong fan base, being the only club in the city. They are currently subject to a takeover bid from the Italian "King of Corn", Massimo Cellino. The ambition will be to gain promotion as soon as possible.

Reading are also a club up for sale. In recent years, they have won the Championship twice and made the playoffs on two other occasions so are viewed as a team that can challenge for promotion. Likewise, they sit in an affluent and growing part of the South East with few local rivals. It is not surprising there is reported interest from US, Omani and Indian investors.

But if promotion from the Championship to the Premier League is like winning the lottery, relegation in the opposite direction is viewed as a disaster. Even despite the parachute payments, relegated teams tend to lose their better players, suffer a drop in morale and rarely bounce back immediately.

This year, the relegation battle is a tight affair - and club owners panicked by the drop have been jettisoning managers left right and centre. In the bottom half of the league, six clubs have changed manager this season, with Fulham changing manager twice.

So, who buys a football club?

Sir John Madejski, the current chairman of Reading Football Club, describes the ideal football club owner as having deep pockets, mercurial, and not faint-hearted.

[cidered abroad]

23 hours ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

Saw some punditry earlier this season where the anchorman said to Gary Neville "supporters I spoke to on the way in were saying Man United should do blah blah blah....", to which Neville cut him squarely of and by saying "to be honest with you, most football supporters don't really know anything about football" to which I spat my dinner out laughing.

Think GN let the cat out the bag with that one.  

I suspect most professional football people take the view that football supporters are best seen but not heard.

Now where's my popularity medal. . . . ?

I believe that the entire professional game is of the opinion that supporters and probably journalists "do not understand football" and keep on telling us in order to perpetuate the very closed and narrow world that is their domain.

It is why we, the paying customers, are kept totally in the dark about pretty well everything that happens from very minor things like two players not speaking to each other, who is screwing who's wife, why CEO's suddenly leave the club, why a player who we signed in July is allowed to go to another club some five weeks later. Etcetera and etcetara.

And in City's case, why we ballsed up our summer recruitment programme?

But those fans who have played the game and have the standard number of brain cells are perfectly capable of working out why City, for example, have shipped goals for fun this season and that an ageing striker does not have the stamina he had last year and so on.

I worked in the printing/packaging industry but I bet Gary Neville will have opinions about that part of our economy even though he as an outsider would know xxxx all about it!

[Son of Fred]

On 03/11/2015 23:36:52, Esmond Million's Bung said:

My prediction is Jackett will lose his job well before SC does.

 

All bets may be off....a good percentage of Wolves fans are sharpening the knives in hope of Burnley doing the business for them on Saturday...with the lack of direction at the top I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall re;decision regarding KJ's replacement..

[Red-Robbo]

5 minutes ago, WTFiGO!?! said:

Yeah but do you really take on board advice about the technical quality of an article you've written from any Tom, Dick or Harry?  Not whether they agree with you or not.  Do the public really analyse lesson plans, teaching styles etc and try to invoke change?  

Football is an entertainment business and part of the package is that we get to talk regular bollocks to each other.  Gary Neville see's it for exactly what it is.

I think we've had former pro footballers on this forum and many of the rest of us have played the game at some level or other since school, so it isn't quite like having opinions on nuclear engineering. 

As Spud says it is sort of accepted that managers and coaches are former professional players,  but there really is no reason why this should always be the case. 

When you listen to the platitudes and inanities spewed by many ex-pros analysing games on TV you realise that often non footballers have sharper insights. 

Nota bene Mr Neville. 

[Major Isewater]

As we're ' not in possession of all the facts ' perhaps Cotts is not telling the whole truth , we'll never know .

[spudski]

7 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I think we've had former pro footballers on this forum and many of the rest of us have played the game at some level or other since school, so it isn't quite like having opinions on nuclear engineering. 

As Spud says it is sort of accepted that managers and coaches are former professional players,  but there really is no reason why this should always be the case. 

When you listen to the platitudes and inanities spewed by many ex-pros analysing games on TV you realise that often non footballers have sharper insights. 

Nota bene Mr Neville. 

As an ex professional footballer, it must be maddening to hear the crap spouted every day by some fans though. So many have never played the game, studied it, understand tactics and modern day coaching methods....but give vociferous voice, based on reading some tabloids, getting pissed as a fart and just singing and chanting at a game without actually watching and understanding what's going on the pitch.

But in general....there would be a multitude of general public with appropriate skills who could do well in football....if they were just given the chance.

I think some open minded Clubs are starting to realise this, especially in Analysis....using 'outside' help.

But in management and coaching, football is definitely protectionist.

Football owners are businessman generally....they have no idea what makes a good football club manager.

Put yourself in SL's and the Boards position.....you are an expert in you're own field of business, but find yourself owning a football club. You sit down and have to employ a manager to run the footballing side of the Club. What the hell do you ask them at interview without looking a right idiot....as none of you have no experience and inside knowledge of how a football team works. Ex players who take up management can talk the talk at interview....non ex players can't....so ex players get the job.

Once in.....the manager generally chooses who he wants as his staff.....usually people he's worked with before or 'mates'......all looking out for one another.

It doesn't necessarily make them the right people for the job.

Getting 'football people' in place behind the scenes, rather than just 'businessman' is a must for success.

From Scouting right through to coaching and Directors of football.

A lot of 'smaller' Clubs are very successful and have been for years because of what they have done 'behind the scenes'. Teams like Burnley for example.

The reason City haven't been more successful, is because these structures haven't been in place properly before.....well not enough for a successfully run football club.

[Red-Robbo]

34 minutes ago, spudski said:

As an ex professional footballer, it must be maddening to hear the crap spouted every day by some fans though. So many have never played the game, studied it, understand tactics and modern day coaching methods....but give vociferous voice, based on reading some tabloids, getting pissed as a fart and just singing and chanting at a game without actually watching and understanding what's going on the pitch.

But in general....there would be a multitude of general public with appropriate skills who could do well in football....if they were just given the chance.

I think some open minded Clubs are starting to realise this, especially in Analysis....using 'outside' help.

But in management and coaching, football is definitely protectionist.

Football owners are businessman generally....they have no idea what makes a good football club manager.

Put yourself in SL's and the Boards position.....you are an expert in you're own field of business, but find yourself owning a football club. You sit down and have to employ a manager to run the footballing side of the Club. What the hell do you ask them at interview without looking a right idiot....as none of you have no experience and inside knowledge of how a football team works. Ex players who take up management can talk the talk at interview....non ex players can't....so ex players get the job.

Once in.....the manager generally chooses who he wants as his staff.....usually people he's worked with before or 'mates'......all looking out for one another.

It doesn't necessarily make them the right people for the job.

Getting 'football people' in place behind the scenes, rather than just 'businessman' is a must for success.

From Scouting right through to coaching and Directors of football.

A lot of 'smaller' Clubs are very successful and have been for years because of what they have done 'behind the scenes'. Teams like Burnley for example.

The reason City haven't been more successful, is because these structures haven't been in place properly before.....well not enough for a successfully run football club.

I suppose Spud it's like any boss interviewing for a position they themselves haven't done.

I am not a coder, yet I employ them. I have to look at experience,  skill set and are they the right sort of person for the specific job. Personality comes into it a lot. The right experience but the wrong personality won't fit with my team, my clients and me. Landown must have appointed the right people,  been a shrewd judge of character,  to have got where he has in his business. Football might be a newer, erm, ball game to him but he is a smart cookie and would learn on the job.

Ultimately,  as you've alluded to in the past, it's more than just the man in the manager's office. There are so many variables in football. Lots of other things have to be right. And at the end of the day, you also need a degree of luck. That's something you can't interview for unfortunately! 

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

I suppose Spud it's like any boss interviewing for a position they themselves haven't done.

I am not a coder, yet I employ them. I have to look at experience,  skill set and are they the right sort of person for the specific job. Personality comes into it a lot. The right experience but the wrong personality won't fit with my team, my clients and me. Landown must have appointed the right people,  been a shrewd judge of character,  to have got where he has in his business. Football might be a newer, erm, ball game to him but he is a smart cookie and would learn on the job.

Ultimately,  as you've alluded to in the past, it's more than just the man in the manager's office. There are so many variables in football. Lots of other things have to be right. And at the end of the day, you also need a degree of luck. That's something you can't interview for unfortunately! 

Yes Robbo....completely agree mate.

Regarding luck....I think we have been playing catch up for years....hence our sleeping giant tag. We've had so much money thrown at this club over the years, but little success compared to the amount spent.

I look at a lot of the 'smaller' clubs, especially 'ooop Norf' in the hotbeds of football, that have had continued success over the years, far outwaying their size.

The one thing they all have in place....are a great scouting network and great coaching throughout the club. A lot of older wiser footballing men doing work behind the scenes keeping the cogs working....complimented with 'modern methods'.

I understand we've not really had all that in place.... I think we are going in the right direction now though. For example in Tinman, we have a man that lives and breathes the club, and wants only the best.

You mention 'personality'....again, not only has a manager to get on with his employer, but also be an attractive manager to work for as a player. Is he able to convince new players to come and play for the club....can he sell himself and the club and it's philosophy.

Much talk goes on about players only moving for more money, but when you get to a certain level of pay, players get really choosy as to who they want to play for.

We've always paid well as a Club, but now restrictions are in place, we have to make ourselves more attractive.

So many anomalies.....

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

Yes Robbo....completely agree mate.

Regarding luck....I think we have been playing catch up for years....hence our sleeping giant tag. We've had so much money thrown at this club over the years, but little success compared to the amount spent.

I look at a lot of the 'smaller' clubs, especially 'ooop Norf' in the hotbeds of football, that have had continued success over the years, far outwaying their size.

The one thing they all have in place....are a great scouting network and great coaching throughout the club. A lot of older wiser footballing men doing work behind the scenes keeping the cogs working....complimented with 'modern methods'.

I understand we've not really had all that in place.... I think we are going in the right direction now though. For example in Tinman, we have a man that lives and breathes the club, and wants only the best.

You mention 'personality'....again, not only has a manager to get on with his employer, but also be an attractive manager to work for as a player. Is he able to convince new players to come and play for the club....can he sell himself and the club and it's philosophy.

Much talk goes on about players only moving for more money, but when you get to a certain level of pay, players get really choosy as to who they want to play for.

We've always paid well as a Club, but now restrictions are in place, we have to make ourselves more attractive.

So many anomalies.....

I seem to be in the wrong place , i'm looking for OTIB but seem to have stumbled on two adults discussing and exchanging idéals on Football.

 

[cider-manc]

I'd be an awesome Manager- I've been proving it every year on Champ manager since 1992.

['Orns]

Does anyone else listen to the Graham Hunter 'Big Interview' podcasts? If you don't, you really should

Think there has been around 10 so far, G Neville, Moyes, D Fletcher, Waddle, Strachan, Souness, H Redknapp, Nicholas are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Hunter is a proper football fan, asking the questions that football fans want to hear. It's the best football interview podcast by an absolute country mile. Some of the above I was thinking I wouldn't enjoy, but each one seems to be better than the last

One of the points on the Souness one that I listened to yesterday was does he enjoy the fact that nowadays the way they (Sky) talk about football, and break it down, makes the watching public appreciate more the work that goes into it. Souness said that he hoped that it did. Everyone is already an expert, we all know that, but listening to these people can be a real eye opener they will be spotting things that us outsiders just won't see. Some incredible stories on there, well worth an hour of your time if you want to download one. Strachan & Souness have been my favs so far, both of which I wasn't looking forward to

[And Its Smith]

28 minutes ago, Woodsy said:

Does anyone else listen to the Graham Hunter 'Big Interview' podcasts? If you don't, you really should

Think there has been around 10 so far, G Neville, Moyes, D Fletcher, Waddle, Strachan, Souness, H Redknapp, Nicholas are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Hunter is a proper football fan, asking the questions that football fans want to hear. It's the best football interview podcast by an absolute country mile. Some of the above I was thinking I wouldn't enjoy, but each one seems to be better than the last

One of the points on the Souness one that I listened to yesterday was does he enjoy the fact that nowadays the way they (Sky) talk about football, and break it down, makes the watching public appreciate more the work that goes into it. Souness said that he hoped that it did. Everyone is already an expert, we all know that, but listening to these people can be a real eye opener they will be spotting things that us outsiders just won't see. Some incredible stories on there, well worth an hour of your time if you want to download one. Strachan & Souness have been my favs so far, both of which I wasn't looking forward to

Will have to give this a listen. On the point of pundits I think their job should be to tell us something we don't already know. I'd like to think I have a pretty decent knowledge of football and can assess a game quite well and the only pundit who points things out that I might have missed is Gary Neville.  He is excellent on Monday Night football and as a co commentator on a live game and has shone a light on how poor the punditry is. 

Other than Neville the best people are on 5 Live but they don't get TV gigs. 

['Orns]

Listened to Spurs - Villa the other night, Danny Mills was doing the game. He gave me nothing, bland as bland could be

[spudski]

Punditry is a job loads of ex pros want....Alan Hansen was paid 40 Grand a show for Match of the day....how the hell do they come to that figure for talking about football...totally immoral.

[Ashtonboy]

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

Punditry is a job loads of ex pros want....Alan Hansen was paid 40 Grand a show for Match of the day....how the hell do they come to that figure for talking about football...totally immoral.

Everybody on here (including you Spud) would of course turn this job down.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Ashtonboy said:

Everybody on here (including you Spud) would of course turn this job down.

Of course we would all take it....but the point is, how do the BBC come to a figure of 40 Grand an episode, to talk for probably no more than five minutes.

Do people hang on every word of Alan Hansen like he was some God....no.

There are plenty of people who could do that job with authority for far, far less money.

[Ashtonboy]

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

Of course we would all take it....but the point is, how do the BBC come to a figure of 40 Grand an episode, to talk for probably no more than five minutes.

Do people hang on every word of Alan Hansen like he was some God....no.

There are plenty of people who could do that job with authority for far, far less money.

At the time he was considered to be the top pundit in the business and Sky were trying to mop up everthing. As you know, the BBC has since expedited itself from such nonsense, but still pays Gary Lineker a ridiculous fee.

[Red-Robbo]

12 minutes ago, Ashtonboy said:

At the time he was considered to be the top pundit in the business and Sky were trying to mop up everthing. As you know, the BBC has since expedited itself from such nonsense, but still pays Gary Lineker a ridiculous fee.

Still pays everyone who steps in front of a camera a ridiculous amount!