spudski Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 ......only a minor point....but it has been driving me mad. Roy Keane was just talking about attacking the ball and getting rid of the danger, instead of watching and following 'your man'. It does my head in, especially at corners....when defenders just follow and watch 'their man'....never actually looking at where the ball is going. So many times, goals are conceded, where players are so scared to lose their player and get blame, that they actually forget to attack and clear the ball. Hardly any defender attacks the ball now....they just go up against their man and wait to see where the ball ends up....plain madness.....brought on by being under pressure from the manager not to lose their marker. Anyone else feel the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roe Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Yeah I tend to agree and feel this is why zonal marking is more successful statistically. A balance between zonal and man marking is what you want ideally and then as you say defenders have to actually go and attack the ball. From open play I'm probably the opposite though, I much prefer players to hold their positions and track runs rather than running in like headless chickens in desperate hope of winning the ball. Again ideally you have to have a balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Surely this is down to coaching instruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 The problem with watching the ball when defending is that if all defenders did the same they'd end up in each other's way. Watching your man enables you block his run/ movement and stop him reaching the ball. If the defender stays close enough they get a greater a chance of winning the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Pros and cons I guess, same as Man marking vs Zonal. Depends also whether the ball is whipped in or stood up, and what type of players are attacking it. So I guess I'm a bit non-commital. i always say that sometimes if the ball in is of top quality and movement is good you can't defend it. I think of 'little' Michael Owen scoring from headers from quality Beckham crosses for England. As a centre half, I would normally pick up their big bloke, which invariably meant starting mid/ back post 12-15 yards out. I would try to track my man, but keeping an eye on the ball....and attack the ball if I could. However the higher the level you play the smarter your opponents are, with blocking etc. When on offensive corners, my role was invariably the near post flick on man. Either starting there, or sometimes through movement to give me the chance of a free header. Sometimes you're just as happy for your marker to flick it on for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 6 minutes ago, roe said: Yeah I tend to agree and feel this is why zonal marking is more successful statistically. A balance between zonal and man marking is what you want ideally and then as you say defenders have to actually go and attack the ball. From open play I'm probably the opposite though, I much prefer players to hold their positions and track runs rather than running in like headless chickens in desperate hope of winning the ball. Again ideally you have to have a balance. Yes mate....was thinking more from set pieces rather than open play. I've tried working out what we actually do at Corners....it's often chaos. We were even holding hands in a line at corners at the beginning of the season. 3 minutes ago, Robbored said: The problem with watching the ball when defending is that if all defenders did the same they'd end up in each other's way. Watching your man enables you block his run/ movement and stop him reaching the ball. If the defender stays close enough they get a greater a chance of winning the ball. That's a given Robbo....but watch the defenders....often they wont even look at the ball....they just look at their man. They have to mark...but also attack the ball when necessary....many don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Very fine line between attacking the ball and rushing in to perhaps make a rash challenge. The modern defensive game is all about getting behind the ball and denying space so that the attack breaks down. When well judged though it can quickly turn defense into attack. A good option to have if you have players quick enough. But disaster awaits I suspect if it's your main strategy because you aren't always going to get there first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 On a slight aside, the sooner Martin Skrtyl (and I support Liverpool) is penalised for molesting his opponent and gets a penalty given against him, the better. Maybe it might stop him doing it. Refs - be brave....you'd be amazed at how many plaudits you'd get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Pros and cons I guess, same as Man marking vs Zonal. Depends also whether the ball is whipped in or stood up, and what type of players are attacking it. So I guess I'm a bit non-commital. i always say that sometimes if the ball in is of top quality and movement is good you can't defend it. I think of 'little' Michael Owen scoring from headers from quality Beckham crosses for England. As a centre half, I would normally pick up their big bloke, which invariably meant starting mid/ back post 12-15 yards out. I would try to track my man, but keeping an eye on the ball....and attack the ball if I could. However the higher the level you play the smarter your opponents are, with blocking etc. When on offensive corners, my role was invariably the near post flick on man. Either starting there, or sometimes through movement to give me the chance of a free header. Sometimes you're just as happy for your marker to flick it on for you! Fair points Dave....however....have you noticed how many fouls are commited in the box by players jostling for position at set pieces....I've never understood how referees ignore it....yet blow up for penalties for the slightest touch in open play....so hypocritical. 5 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said: Very fine line between attacking the ball and rushing in to perhaps make a rash challenge. The modern defensive game is all about getting behind the ball and denying space so that the attack breaks down. When well judged though it can quickly turn defense into attack. A good option to have if you have players quick enough. But disaster awaits I suspect if it's your main strategy because you aren't always going to get there first! True Frenchay....but see the point I made earlier about no one actually looking at the ball at all....just watching the player. As Roy Keane noted....the danger is where the ball is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchay Red Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Just now, spudski said: True Frenchay....but see the point I made earlier about no one actually looking at the ball at all....just watching the player. As Roy Keane noted....the danger is where the ball is. Totally agree regarding corners and similarly placed free kicks. Can only assumed the coaches believe marking the man rather than going for the ball is a safer defensive option. I guess if 1 or 2 defenders go for it and get it wrong it leaves attacking players unmarked. Best example of watching the man not the ball was the Swindon joker last season in the home game who wrestled Flint to the ground every time we had a corner. The ref missed every one. Must have been 3 or 4 certain penalties! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Hack 'em down i say . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I would have though that "attacking the man" was a Roy Keane speciality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garland-sweden Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Watching the ball. ok. The question is, where is the ball going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandro Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 14 hours ago, spudski said: True Frenchay....but see the point I made earlier about no one actually looking at the ball at all....just watching the player. As Roy Keane noted....the danger is where the ball is. Yes the danger is where the ball is, but as the defending team, you don't know where the ball will be until it's been kicked. As the attacking team, you have an advantage that you know the general area where the ball will (or is intending to) end up. Presuming the delivery from a corner is a good one, if you're a defender watching the ball, you see it kicked, then react. You start moving from a still position to meet the ball, but the problem is the attacker who you're not watching started his run up and jump before you, because he knew the area of the delivery and therefore has much more momentum, and a far higher chance of winning the arial battle. Seems pretty simple to me. That's why you even the odds as a marker by disrupting the movement of your opposition. You will never stop goals from corners, people will win and lose their physical battles however much you train. And although Roy Keane knows a hell of a lot more about football than me, I don't personally trust his judgement over the countless top managers who man mark at corners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS30 Reds Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Agree you should attack the ball but usually the aim is to be man for man with 2 spare, one in front of the near post to stop the flick or to clear if the corner is poor and one usually around the middle of the box whos job is to go and attack it. Everyone else blocks/marks there man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I think people are missing the point...it's a given that you mark your man or zone...but the point being made, is that often a defender will mark his player, but not watch the ball as well. You often see defenders jostling with their opponent, but with their back to the incoming ball....just pushing the opponent, or blocking his move....rather than doing both and attacking the ball when it comes to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Corners are simple now, just make sure your goalie ends up on the floor, instant free kick No need to mark anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTBLUE Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 17 hours ago, Davefevs said: On a slight aside, the sooner Martin Skrtyl (and I support Liverpool) is penalised for molesting his opponent and gets a penalty given against him, the better. Maybe it might stop him doing it. Refs - be brave....you'd be amazed at how many plaudits you'd get. If he did half of what he does at corners in town on a Saturday night,he'd be arrested for assault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 23 minutes ago, NOTBLUE said: If he did half of what he does at corners in town on a Saturday night,he'd be arrested for assault. Or public indecency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 What I like to see is the Keeper come and catch the ball when it is slung in the box now and again. But too many of them (ours included) seem to stay on their line and let the centre half head it under the crossbar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Back i the day there was no need for zonal marking or for defenders to manhandle strikers when defending corners. Dickie Rooks just attacked the ball, and flattened any opposition players that got in his way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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