Midfield the problem?

[ciderup]

Joe Ledley? Only 28 and relatively local. He also needs games to get in the Welsh squad for Euro 16. Not in the current Palace team I think.

[Lew-T]

Yep, same again we were weak in midfield. 

Sorry but what does Packman offer? I want to like the guy but he doesn't do enough to warrant a place in this side. You need to offer more than passing a ball 6 yards and looking good!

He's getting found out a little. LF hasn't been great either mind you!

[red mist]

Freeman's delivery at free kicks was good today, and set up early chance for Kodjia. Hope he is not turning into a target of the boo boys. He hasn't had the best of starts but does not hide and always gives 100%. Lack of movement off the ball makes him look isolated 

[Robbored]

Why isn't Bobby Ried getting much of a look in?

Possibly because Cotterill thinks he's lightweight and lacks the stamina yet for a full Championship game. Or.....Reid hasn't shown enough in training to convince Cotterill that he's worth a starting spot. Or.....Cotterill feels tha he has two/three experienced midfielders who he trusts to do a reliable job ahead of Reid.

Bottom line - it's down to Reid to up his training performances to convince Cotterill to elevate him to the starting 11.

 

[Harry]

Korey Smith gave the ball away 8 times today.

Marlon Pack gave the ball away 11 times today (3 more than Smith).  Pack had 11 more touches of the ball.

Korey Smith was dispossessed twice.  Marlon Pack once.

Korey Smith mis-controlled the ball 3 times.  Marlon Pack none.

Korey Smith made and won 1 tackle.  Marlon Pack won 2.

Korey Smith won 2 headers.  Marlon Pack won 5.

Korey Smith made 3 interceptions.  Marlon Pack made 2.

Korey Smith made 2 clearances.  Marlon Pack made 4.

Korey Smith blocked 1 shot.  Marlon Pack none.

Both made 2 fouls.

Korey Smith failed to find the target in 4 out of 8 long/cross-field balls. Marlon Pack failed in 4 our of 9.

 

So.  Overall, those stats look quite even for both of our midfielders (well, in fact Pack out-performed Smith in 7.5 of those 10 area's).  They are both very good players and have both been very consistent this season, and both compliment each other well.

This thread is asking the wrong questions.  The midfield have actually been the consistent area of the team this season.  Where we've been caught out and naive is at the wing back position (particularly the left side), and the 2 wider centre halves being caught out positionally.  Oh, and being hugely one-dimensional up top.

The midfield - although certainly requiring strengthening - is not the main are of concern.  In my humble opinion.

[mightyreds89]

I'm amazed by those stats Smith was a million times better than Pack today (and Freeman). 

[Lew-T]

Marlon Pack hasn't been consistent. In fact quite the opposite! He's played a couple good games but a few of the games he's been abysmal. I've watched Pack quite a bit and one of the things that bugs me is that he never tracks his man down, few times today he let his man go! You can't afford to do that at this level. ( any level )

Today wasn't Korey's best games, probably one of his worst of the season.

With Freeman today I thought he was better than he has been recently, not great mind you but there was improvement. 

IMO I think we need at least one more quality midfielder. Somebody with experience preferably

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, mightyreds89 said:

I'm amazed by those stats Smith was a million times better than Pack today (and Freeman). 

To the naked eye, maybe.  But the stats would suggest otherwise. Smith is generally 'busier' than Pack, so to the naked eye 'seems' to be influencing the game more. Depends how you watch the game.
Both, however, are crucial to the style in which we play.  I am more than happy with a Smith-Pack midfield.

Me, I actually thought all 3 midfielders were off their game today,  But they are FAR from being the problem this season.

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Marlon Pack hasn't been consistent. In fact quite the opposite! He's played a couple good games but a few of the games he's been abysmal. I've watched Pack quite a bit and one of the things that bugs me is that he never tracks his man down, few times today he let his man go! You can't afford to do that at this level. ( any level )

 

Your opinion differs to mine Lew.  In my opinion, Pack has been our most consistent player this season (not our best player, but our most consistent - there is a difference).

Smith and Pack have both been fine this year.  Look to other area's for your critique, because midfield is not the problem.

For the record, Pack is 100 times better at tracking runners than Cole Skuse ever was.  Since we switched Skuse for Pack, 79% LESS goals have come as a result of midfield runners.

 

[And Its Smith]

27 minutes ago, Harry said:

Korey Smith gave the ball away 8 times today.

Marlon Pack gave the ball away 11 times today (3 more than Smith).  Pack had 11 more touches of the ball.

Korey Smith was dispossessed twice.  Marlon Pack once.

Korey Smith mis-controlled the ball 3 times.  Marlon Pack none.

Korey Smith made and won 1 tackle.  Marlon Pack won 2.

Korey Smith won 2 headers.  Marlon Pack won 5.

Korey Smith made 3 interceptions.  Marlon Pack made 2.

Korey Smith made 2 clearances.  Marlon Pack made 4.

Korey Smith blocked 1 shot.  Marlon Pack none.

Both made 2 fouls.

Korey Smith failed to find the target in 4 out of 8 long/cross-field balls. Marlon Pack failed in 4 our of 9.

 

So.  Overall, those stats look quite even for both of our midfielders (well, in fact Pack out-performed Smith in 7.5 of those 10 area's).  They are both very good players and have both been very consistent this season, and both compliment each other well.

This thread is asking the wrong questions.  The midfield have actually been the consistent area of the team this season.  Where we've been caught out and naive is at the wing back position (particularly the left side), and the 2 wider centre halves being caught out positionally.  Oh, and being hugely one-dimensional up top.

The midfield - although certainly requiring strengthening - is not the main are of concern.  In my humble opinion.

And that is why there is no substitute for actually watching the game closely and knowing a bit about it.  Everyone could see that Smith outperformed Pack today.  Stats are killing punditry and analysis. 

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, RedDave said:

And that is why there is no substitute for actually watching the game closely and knowing a bit about it.  Everyone could see that Smith outperformed Pack today.  Stats are killing punditry and analysis. 

Not at all.  Pack has outshone Smith in the "stats", but I wholesomely acknowledged that both performed 'on a par' to the naked eye.

Just trying to quell some all to often myths and back it up with factual evidence.  Pack is not the weak link in our team, as many would think.

Sorry that the stats don't back up what you witnessed.  We all see the game is a different perspective.  You may have had more of a lasting memory of Smith's 1 tackle than you did of Pack's 2.  You may have thought that the incident where Pack had no option 10 yards inside the opposition half and lost the ball, leading to a Hull shot, was more of a mistake than Smith giving it away on the half way line which led to a corner.

Regardless, both were below par today, but both have been fine enough this season.

[Chivs]

37 minutes ago, Harry said:

Korey Smith gave the ball away 8 times today.

Marlon Pack gave the ball away 11 times today (3 more than Smith).  Pack had 11 more touches of the ball.

Korey Smith was dispossessed twice.  Marlon Pack once.

Korey Smith mis-controlled the ball 3 times.  Marlon Pack none.

Korey Smith made and won 1 tackle.  Marlon Pack won 2.

Korey Smith won 2 headers.  Marlon Pack won 5.

Korey Smith made 3 interceptions.  Marlon Pack made 2.

Korey Smith made 2 clearances.  Marlon Pack made 4.

Korey Smith blocked 1 shot.  Marlon Pack none.

Both made 2 fouls.

Korey Smith failed to find the target in 4 out of 8 long/cross-field balls. Marlon Pack failed in 4 our of 9.

 

So.  Overall, those stats look quite even for both of our midfielders (well, in fact Pack out-performed Smith in 7.5 of those 10 area's).  They are both very good players and have both been very consistent this season, and both compliment each other well.

This thread is asking the wrong questions.  The midfield have actually been the consistent area of the team this season.  Where we've been caught out and naive is at the wing back position (particularly the left side), and the 2 wider centre halves being caught out positionally.  Oh, and being hugely one-dimensional up top.

The midfield - although certainly requiring strengthening - is not the main are of concern.  In my humble opinion.

Where did you get these stats from?  I'd ask for a refund because they are wrong.

[Harry]

2 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Where did you get these stats from?  I'd ask for a refund because they are wrong.

I have pro-zone.  It's factual.  As said in the previous post, it may not be what you saw with the naked eye, but it's the facts.

If a refund is due, then it's due to 350 of the biggest clubs on the planet.

[And Its Smith]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

Korey Smith gave the ball away 8 times today.

Marlon Pack gave the ball away 11 times today (3 more than Smith).  Pack had 11 more touches of the ball.

Korey Smith was dispossessed twice.  Marlon Pack once.

Korey Smith mis-controlled the ball 3 times.  Marlon Pack none.

Korey Smith made and won 1 tackle.  Marlon Pack won 2.

Korey Smith won 2 headers.  Marlon Pack won 5.

Korey Smith made 3 interceptions.  Marlon Pack made 2.

Korey Smith made 2 clearances.  Marlon Pack made 4.

Korey Smith blocked 1 shot.  Marlon Pack none.

Both made 2 fouls.

Korey Smith failed to find the target in 4 out of 8 long/cross-field balls. Marlon Pack failed in 4 our of 9.

 

So.  Overall, those stats look quite even for both of our midfielders (well, in fact Pack out-performed Smith in 7.5 of those 10 area's).  They are both very good players and have both been very consistent this season, and both compliment each other well.

This thread is asking the wrong questions.  The midfield have actually been the consistent area of the team this season.  Where we've been caught out and naive is at the wing back position (particularly the left side), and the 2 wider centre halves being caught out positionally.  Oh, and being hugely one-dimensional up top.

The midfield - although certainly requiring strengthening - is not the main are of concern.  In my humble opinion.

It wasn't supposed to be a dig at you.  Just at stats in general.  They are everywhere now in football and as they don't tell even half the story I find it frustrating.

for example, there won't be any stats anywhere showing how many times Pack got the ball in a good counter position and then held onto it too long and passed it backwards.

[Eddie Hitler]

8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

It wasn't supposed to be a dig at you.  Just at stats in general.  They are everywhere now in football and as they don't tell even half the story I find it frustrating.

for example, there won't be any stats anywhere showing how many times Pack got the ball in a good counter position and then held onto it too long and passed it backwards.

Spot on. We saw what happened when Gary Johnson ceased to rely on his football experience and started to let Prozone pick his team for him.

[archie andrews]

if there was a choice between the two I know who id pick....smith all day long

[Son of Fred]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Why isn't Bobby Ried getting much of a look in?

Possibly because Cotterill thinks he's lightweight and lacks the stamina yet for a full Championship game. Or.....Reid hasn't shown enough in training to convince Cotterill that he's worth a starting spot. Or.....Cotterill feels tha he has two/three experienced midfielders who he trusts to do a reliable job ahead of Reid.

Bottom line - it's down to Reid to up his training performances to convince Cotterill to elevate him to the starting 11.

 

The only mid fielder we have that can hack it is Korey...of the better sides we have played as far this season would you see Bobby in their starting lineup??..or Pack??..if we wish to even become established in this division-let alone top six,then we need to be honest with ourselves-hard even,and not focus on players that will never really be comfortable/enjoy the consistency to prosper.jury still out for me with Freeman I have to admit.

[Son of Fred]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

I have pro-zone.  It's factual.  As said in the previous post, it may not be what you saw with the naked eye, but it's the facts.

If a refund is due, then it's due to 350 of the biggest clubs on the planet.

Stats will as often mislead as enlighten...used with this firmly in mind.OK..only thing you can truly trust is the mark one eyeball with a dose of gut instinct....

[Frenchay Red]

Those stats may be interesting, but they only tell part of the story. They don't say how quickly the actions were performed, or which direction the ball moved following those actions. Pack is doing ok, but often does not move the ball quickly enough and often turns back on the direction of play thus effectively killing an attacking move. This is the contrast with Wade, who would always be looking to create something going forward. 

So IMO we still need to get a "new" Wade. 

[marshy]

8 hours ago, Harry said:

I have pro-zone.  It's factual.  As said in the previous post, it may not be what you saw with the naked eye, but it's the facts.

If a refund is due, then it's due to 350 of the biggest clubs on the planet.

Do they do stats for players whose anticipation is so poor they arrive at a situation seconds after the opposition, happened a lot to our midfield yesterday, or a failure to move five yards to create an angle and an option for the man with the ball so they end up getting caught in possession or punting it upfield and inviting pressure back on the defence ?

[1960maaan]

Balance is a big problem, at the start of the season we looked threatening but wide open. Agard starting coincided with a slight change in the use of the system and now we have tightened up but  have removed some of the threat. With that change we need to be more clinical but the picking up of points will help that and confidence.

I can't remember the game, away at some arsehole of the world, I watched Wade and was massively impressed with the simplicity. It was both easy, very easy actually, and difficult. All he did was get the ball and give it to another City player. He kept possession and with simple passes kept it it moving and so opened up space. The difficult bit being he ALWAYS found himself space, and was always available.

I think Freeman could learn from that, especially at the moment. Can't deny he looks fit and tries very hard, but the more he tries and it doesn't come off , the ,more he holds onto the ball and gets caught. I think he just needs to keep it simple for a while and his luck will change, although if we had more options (I'm not against Reid coming in) he may benifit from a rest.

The wingbacks are interesting, I think we look more solid with Williams as he's a natural defender but he also gets into good positions in the box when he feels he can. Elliot, a winger , doesn't seem to get into the box much at all. Winger by trade stays wide, does get back to cover but doesn't fill the 'far post space' when the ball is on Williams flank.

I was impressed with Hull in one respect today, they never gave us space or time to build a move. With that option gone and Kodjia off colour and not making those runs I think we were looking for the scrappy type goal we got. I don't think a game against a Hull side that has conceded 1 in 6 is a good game to judge us, I believe we need another striker (one who will get games and is mobile), and a creative midfielder (as opposed to attacking) , someone who can see a pass and bring others into the game.

Cott's made slight changes (eventually) and were are more solid, now we need a bit of quality in a couple of place and we will be able to build.

PS: Really liked the pictures in the Dolman concourse , just saying.

[RobintheRed Red]

On 11/8/2015 3:29:20, Kodjia said:

Who is out there that we can get on loan or who is available in Jan? Personally, I would give Reid another run in the side as he has impressed every time he has played.

 

[RobintheRed Red]

You couldn't have played Bobby Reid in that midfield yesterday he would have been eaten alive they were all six foot eight it was hard enough as it was

[...]

Why is Freeman under performing?

Pretty well our best player last year - is it the step up (the standard of opposition), or confidence?

Is the midfield an area where we have historically under-invested??

 

Uncle TFR

[robin_unreliant]

19 minutes ago, Taxi for Rennie said:

Is the midfield an area where we have historically under-invested??

That is a very good question IMO. My impression over recent years is that the club will only spend 'big' on strikers. I think it was said Freeman cost £500k which is an exception. I may be wrong but I have the impression we look at players in the 200-300k range across the rest of the team and will only spend £1m+ on strikers.

I know goal scorers cost more and win games. Seems to me we have had an army of £2-300k average players over the years who then left for free. Is this part of our problem? SC has kept the squad size down so you'd hope we could invest a bit more per player. However so far the only big money bids we made this season were -again- for strikers.

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

That is a very good question IMO. My impression over recent years is that the club will only spend 'big' on strikers. I think it was said Freeman cost £500k which is an exception. I may be wrong but I have the impression we look at players in the 200-300k range across the rest of the team and will only spend £1m+ on strikers.

I know goal scorers cost more and win games. Seems to me we have had an army of £2-300k average players over the years who then left for free. Is this part of our problem? SC has kept the squad size down so you'd hope we could invest a bit more per player. However so far the only big money bids we made this season were -again- for strikers.

Interesting point, I hadn't thought of that before.

Under GJ we had some of the most talented midfield players I've seen - Hartley, Sno, Noble, Gavin Williams in parts, Elliot in his first season - all of them either left quickly, burned out or were misused. How I'd love to see a Hartley/Sno/Noble in this squad.

[TammyAB]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

That is a very good question IMO. My impression over recent years is that the club will only spend 'big' on strikers. I think it was said Freeman cost £500k which is an exception. I may be wrong but I have the impression we look at players in the 200-300k range across the rest of the team and will only spend £1m+ on strikers.

I know goal scorers cost more and win games. Seems to me we have had an army of £2-300k average players over the years who then left for free. Is this part of our problem? SC has kept the squad size down so you'd hope we could invest a bit more per player. However so far the only big money bids we made this season were -again- for strikers.

Didn't we bid 2.5m for Maguire?

[Tinmans Love Child]

These stats tell half a story, giving the ball away in the middle of the park and creating a goal scoring chance is much worse than giving the ball away in a less dangerous position.  For me Pack and Freeman have been making errors in crucial areas of the pitch, I personally don't think they have reached the required standard yet, too much inconsistency for me.  However overall against Hull I think we defended well as a team and still created some good chances, we matched one of the best teams in the league and that's a great achievement.

[BarmyArmy]

Bradley Dack should definitely be an option. We would have a chance of signing him and he would add a lot to this team.

[robin_unreliant]

14 minutes ago, Kodjia said:

Didn't we bid 2.5m for Maguire?

Good point - had forgotten that. It would be good to see some quality permanent signings along the spine of the team. CB and CM not just up front. Actual signings rather than rumoured bids!