Midfield the problem?

[pongo88]

15 hours ago, Harry said:

Korey Smith gave the ball away 8 times today.

Marlon Pack gave the ball away 11 times today (3 more than Smith).  Pack had 11 more touches of the ball.

Korey Smith was dispossessed twice.  Marlon Pack once.

Korey Smith mis-controlled the ball 3 times.  Marlon Pack none.

Korey Smith made and won 1 tackle.  Marlon Pack won 2.

Korey Smith won 2 headers.  Marlon Pack won 5.

Korey Smith made 3 interceptions.  Marlon Pack made 2.

Korey Smith made 2 clearances.  Marlon Pack made 4.

Korey Smith blocked 1 shot.  Marlon Pack none.

Both made 2 fouls.

Korey Smith failed to find the target in 4 out of 8 long/cross-field balls. Marlon Pack failed in 4 our of 9.

 

So.  Overall, those stats look quite even for both of our midfielders (well, in fact Pack out-performed Smith in 7.5 of those 10 area's).  They are both very good players and have both been very consistent this season, and both compliment each other well.

This thread is asking the wrong questions.  The midfield have actually been the consistent area of the team this season.  Where we've been caught out and naive is at the wing back position (particularly the left side), and the 2 wider centre halves being caught out positionally.  Oh, and being hugely one-dimensional up top.

The midfield - although certainly requiring strengthening - is not the main are of concern.  In my humble opinion.

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I'm sure the above stats are accurate but what do they tell us? Stats about making passes, controlling the ball, making interceptions have to be viewed in context. Where and when did all of these things happen? Which ones were decisive and which were routine etc?  

[TheCulturalBomb]

Biggest problem for me is the lack of goals they score. Would nice if we had a proper midfielder that can score a goal or so every few games. Freeman has been so, so poor this season, having occasionally a good game. Yesterday proved that again, and he STILL doesn't have an assist. Bobby has 2 in the few games he played, is stats wise rated higher than Freeman as well. He also looked good going forward. 

[robin_unreliant]

5 minutes ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

Yesterday proved that again, and he STILL doesn't have an assist.

Umm - what about the free-kick that led to Agard scoring yesterday? Someone may have touched it in-between but it was a quality cross that led to the goal. He's been unlucky not to win at least one penalty this season. Agree he was below par yesterday though.

[ChippenhamRed]

Stats like those stated in this thread are infuriating. They can be completely misleading.

For example, the stat about how often the ball was given away. That doesn't account for the position the player was in when he received the ball - was he played into trouble by a poor pass from a colleague? Was he isolated and unable to find a team mate through no fault of his own? Was he attempting to beat a man, which could have been the right thing to do? Football is far too complex and nuanced to be reduced to mere statistics.

If the stats show Pack to be superior to Smith yesterday, then all this proves is just how misleading statistics can be.

[Chivs]

15 hours ago, Harry said:

I have pro-zone.  It's factual.  As said in the previous post, it may not be what you saw with the naked eye, but it's the facts.

If a refund is due, then it's due to 350 of the biggest clubs on the planet.

Ah right.  Genuine question as I've always wondered: how does "pro-zone" come up with those stats?

What's the actual process for knowing that Pack failed in 4 out of 9 cross field/long balls, for example?

[spudski]

24 minutes ago, Chivs said:

Ah right.  Genuine question as I've always wondered: how does "pro-zone" come up with those stats?

What's the actual process for knowing that Pack failed in 4 out of 9 cross field/long balls, for example?

Cameras, image tracking and sophisticated computer software does it all...plus input from 'real people' :laugh:

[spudski]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Stats like those stated in this thread are infuriating. They can be completely misleading.

For example, the stat about how often the ball was given away. That doesn't account for the position the player was in when he received the ball - was he played into trouble by a poor pass from a colleague? Was he isolated and unable to find a team mate through no fault of his own? Was he attempting to beat a man, which could have been the right thing to do? Football is far too complex and nuanced to be reduced to mere statistics.

If the stats show Pack to be superior to Smith yesterday, then all this proves is just how misleading statistics can be.

They aren't misleading when used with the human eye as well.

You gather information and use both what you watched and what Stats tell you.

There is a famous example of how stats like Pro zone give, that weren't noticed by managers and coach's.

Sam Allardyce found that from corners, the ball when defended often ended up in one particular part of the pitch.

So at corners he put a man there...it worked. The player often picked the ball up and put it back into the box and they scored.

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

I can't remember the game, away at some arsehole of the world, I watched Wade and was massively impressed with the simplicity. It was both easy, very easy actually, and difficult. All he did was get the ball and give it to another City player. He kept possession and with simple passes kept it it moving and so opened up space. The difficult bit being he ALWAYS found himself space, and was always available.

I think Freeman could learn from that, especially at the moment. Can't deny he looks fit and tries very hard, but the more he tries and it doesn't come off , the ,more he holds onto the ball and gets caught. I think he just needs to keep it simple for a while and his luck will change, although if we had more options (I'm not against Reid coming in) he may benifit from a rest.

Couldn't agree more.  Wade used to pop the ball off, move into since, get it back again.....repeat!  Plus he used to make good use of the 'final ball'...often creating chances.

Freeman is at his best when he does similar things, although he usually tries to drive forward first, pop it off, get it back etc.  I thought he did that pretty well at Cardiff....less so yesterday.  Also second half v Wolves too, after a shocking (but energetic) first half.

Personally I think we played more attractively with Wade, Korey and Luke last season, but that's not to say we were less effective when Marlon replaced Wade mid-season.

Pack took 3-4 games to settle this season, but I don't think he's had less than a 6/10 (from my AmZone system!!!!!! ) since.

Individually Marlon is not the problem, but combined with Korey and a zero scoring Luke, the midfield is not creating or converting, which normally results in players getting a bit more criticism that their performances deserve. If Freeman could start scoring the odd girl or three, the trio would look a lot better.

As for yesterday I thought Flint and Baker were MOM contenders, not Korey, who I thought was tidy....as was Marlon.  They have different jobs, have different skills and are doing them pretty well IMHO.  I don't think Bobby would've done better yesterday than Luke, in fact I think the game may've bypassed him, with the physicality of Livermore, Huddlestone, Diame etc in and the around the midfield. At some point though he must be given a chance....yesterday Cotts was right, but who knows when?

We are moving in the right direction.  If Cotts could bring in someone better in the midfield then fantastic, but who's about?

 

[biggythecity]

Freeman is an easy target.granted he hasn't been the force of last year but he's still learning at this level.he put the early ball through for kodja yesterday and his free kick created the goal,there's two big creative balls without thinking.yes he is loosing the ball more but he is known by the opposition for being our man we go through so is immidiatly surrounded and rarely supported by red shirts for an out ball.reid could do no better than freeman

[Chivs]

19 hours ago, Harry said:

I have pro-zone.  It's factual.  As said in the previous post, it may not be what you saw with the naked eye, but it's the facts.

If a refund is due, then it's due to 350 of the biggest clubs on the planet.

It's not factual.  It's wrong.  Demand a refund.

 

[Davefevs]

Just watched the game back on Sky +.

Freeman had quite an effective game.  He had some nice touches and as mentioned took the free kick for the goal, put Kodjia through early on and had a free kicked tipped over.  That against two ex-Prem and ex-England players.  Ok, he slipped trying to get a cross in, but he was much neater and tidier than I thought watching it at the gate.

Also, didn't think we were outplayed as much as I thought in the second half. Maybe the sun was in my eyes!!!

I also wonder whether Maguire could've been red carded for his foul on Bennett...goalscoring opportunity????

[BCFC_Dan]

On 22/11/2015, 00:06:59, Harry said:

I have pro-zone.  It's factual.  As said in the previous post, it may not be what you saw with the naked eye, but it's the facts.

If a refund is due, then it's due to 350 of the biggest clubs on the planet.

Do you have the equivalent stats for the Hull midfield?

We know we can't buy players of that calibre as Hull signed them when they were in the Premier League, but comparing our players with one another doesn't really show whether or not the midfield is a weak link (I know you were actually demonstrating that Pack isn't as weak as people think, relative to Smith).

From my viewing of the game, if we were able to sign a current equivalent of Paul Hartley, who could control the midfield and dictate the play better than our current players, it would improve the team massively. Whether or not such a player exists and is a realistic signing for us is another matter.

[...]

........ I can remember being SOOOO exited when we signed Ray Atteveld for £500,000.

I thought City had joined the 'big time'.

 

Uncle TFR

[1960maaan]

No need to  TFR

I liked Atteveld, I remember one majestic through ball....... oh hang on that may have been a back pass that led to a goal. 

But there was an awesome goal from 25 yards at the Den..... sorry that was an own goal. 

 

He was good though wasn't he ??

 

[Major Isewater]

30 minutes ago, Taxi for Rennie said:

........ I can remember being SOOOO exited when we signed Ray Atteveld for £500,000.

I thought City had joined the 'big time'.

 

Uncle TFR

Big hair Time .