Marina's Rolls Royce Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 So here we go. To sign or not to sign is the question about Zack Clough. We've offered the money and I would put my shirt on the fact that we've also offered the wages but does he actually want to play for BCFC and what are his adviser's saying? If the answer is NO then I think it's only fair to suggest that the pages and pages on here that we screwed up with Gray & Gayle etc because of wages or being too ambitious will be exposed for what it is. In my opinion, the big problem for us is that despite Lansdowne's billions and despite the swanky new stadium- we are still seen as a footballing backwater unable to truly progress an up and coming star's career or compete at the highest level- it's about perception. We all know that is a false perception but if we can't pull this one off then I doubt we can get anything but crumbs from the table of League football. And to blame Lansdown Cotterill or Burt for this is crass- blame a century of underachievement. In the meantime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: So here we go. To sign or not to sign is the question about Zack Clough. We've offered the money and I would put my shirt on the fact that we've also offered the wages but does he actually want to play for BCFC and what are his adviser's saying? If the answer is NO then I think it's only fair to suggest that the pages and pages on here that we screwed up with Gray & Gayle etc because of wages or being too ambitious will be exposed for what it is. In my opinion, the big problem for us is that despite Lansdowne's billions and despite the swanky new stadium- we are still seen as a footballing backwater unable to truly progress an up and coming star's career or compete at the highest level- it's about perception. We all know that is a false perception but if we can't pull this one off then I doubt we can get anything but crumbs from the table of League football. And to blame Lansdown Cotterill or Burt for this is crass- blame a century of underachievement. In the meantime Its got nothing to do with perception. Its purely on league position that players and adviser's are judging us badly IMO. Had we been sitting in the top ten or pushing for play offs the likes of Clough would be jumping at the chance of coming here.. To be honest you only have to look at when we were seen as a more 'established' championship club when GJ Coppout DM etc were in charge, we certainly attracted decent names back then even if half of the players did turn out to be shite we still got them here didnt we.. In a nutshell its where we are in the league that is putting players off in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Leicester done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 But you have to ask yourself why we have had a Century of underachievement? Fantastic fan base...good money coming through the gates, and in recent years millions of pounds thrown at the Club by SL. Any Professional footballer see's our history...especially recent. They will see the new stadium, the ambition, the recent L1 win and the amount of money spent by SL. They will also have seen numerous good managers and players under achieve here. So...those players and their advisors and agents will look at all those facts, and ask...WHY? Why have BCFC failed, with all that money, all those players, all those paying fans, and all those managers? Ask yourself what the one constant is. Are we 'Professional' enough at this standard, compared to other clubs? Have we had the Coach's, Scouts, analysts, old footballing heads of experience in place etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderbeans Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 It's disappointing nowadays that players pick clubs based on league position in the hope they get an easy ride to next level rather than assessing all aspects of a club and picking one in which they will a) get regular playing time and b) have the chance to become a cult hero at a club through hard work. just hope clough has the smarts to see we are a club on the up, league position aside, and if he is to be a player of high quality in the future, he will get there regardless of where he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, ciderbeans said: It's disappointing nowadays that players pick clubs based on league position in the hope they get an easy ride to next level rather than assessing all aspects of a club and picking one in which they will a) get regular playing time and b) have the chance to become a cult hero at a club through hard work. just hope clough has the smarts to see we are a club on the up, league position aside, and if he is to be a player of high quality in the future, he will get there regardless of where he is. There is always an up moment in the movement of a yo yo ;-) However...look at what Andy Cole did :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chivs Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 14 minutes ago, spudski said: But you have to ask yourself why we have had a Century of underachievement? Fantastic fan base...good money coming through the gates, and in recent years millions of pounds thrown at the Club by SL. Any Professional footballer see's our history...especially recent. They will see the new stadium, the ambition, the recent L1 win and the amount of money spent by SL. They will also have seen numerous good managers and players under achieve here. So...those players and their advisors and agents will look at all those facts, and ask...WHY? Why have BCFC failed, with all that money, all those players, all those paying fans, and all those managers? Ask yourself what the one constant is. Are we 'Professional' enough at this standard, compared to other clubs? Have we had the Coach's, Scouts, analysts, old footballing heads of experience in place etc, etc, etc. You keep banging on about this and I keep asking one question: where are the teams that have Quote the Coach's, Scouts, analysts, old footballing heads of experience in place etc, etc, etc. ??? In answer to your very first question: it's because we are like almost all other football clubs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, Chivs said: You keep banging on about this and I keep asking one question: where are the teams that have ??? In answer to your very first question: it's because we are like almost all other football clubs! No we are not...how many Clubs have failed as much as us, with the same amount of money and support as us over recent years? In theory we should be like Norwich or Ipswich. Granted you have clubs like Sheffield Utd right now on a down moment...but we have continually failed given our resources compared to other clubs. It's no coincidence that managers have come here and struggled but achieved again elsewhere. One's I've spoken too, have all said how surprised they were with the lack of 'set up' and 'professionalism' at BCFC in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 37 minutes ago, Griffin said: Leicester done it. Done what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unan Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 3 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: Done what? Got a ton of money in, got a good manager in whilst playing ugly in the Championship and pushed to get in the prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 33 minutes ago, spudski said: Ask yourself what the one constant is. Are we 'Professional' enough at this standard, compared to other clubs? Have we had the Coach's, Scouts, analysts, old footballing heads of experience in place etc, etc, etc. I couldn't properly answer this- from the outside looking in, it does seem that we are more stable with a saner owner than most clubs at our level and yet we still don't seem to get over the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted January 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Griffin said: Got a ton of money in, got a good manager in whilst playing ugly in the Championship and pushed to get in the prem. Yes- I guess so but Leicester have always been better supported and more successful than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inactive user Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Being totally Frank, I think we're not as 'fashionable' as a number of rivals in this division. Some of the money we've offered for players this season shows we need to pay over the odds, and with our league position, even that doesn't mean players will want to join us. Somehow, we need to up our game in scouting and analysis to root out young undervalued talent which we can develop, benefit from and sell on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 59 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: I couldn't properly answer this- from the outside looking in, it does seem that we are more stable with a saner owner than most clubs at our level and yet we still don't seem to get over the line. There are many egoists that own football clubs, wouldn't you agree? If you had the money SL has...what would you have done to make sure your football club could compete long term and not just short term? What 'foundations' does a Professional football club need in place, to have long term success? Not saying we aren't addressing those 'situations' now...but if I had the ££££££££'s that SL has and wanted success, i'd have gone about it totally differently to how he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shtanley Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Honestly I think we should be trying to do a similar thing to what McCarthy did at ipswich when they were near the bottom. Bought the best players from the teams that get relegated. We are doing that with Clough but if Rotherham and maybe Charlton go down we should be trying to cherry pick 1 or 2 of their stars. Ipswich took Anderson, Gherken and Skuse from us and they did alright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickJ Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 3 hours ago, spudski said: There are many egoists that own football clubs, wouldn't you agree? If you had the money SL has...what would you have done to make sure your football club could compete long term and not just short term? What 'foundations' does a Professional football club need in place, to have long term success? Not saying we aren't addressing those 'situations' now...but if I had the ££££££££'s that SL has and wanted success, i'd have gone about it totally differently to how he has. OK then spud, here's your chance. I too have been critical of the way the club has been run over the past 10-12 years. Critical of SL and the way in which a club which after 1982 steadily built into a supporter owned financially independent entity with positive balance sheet reserves of over £10m, to within a few years in substantial debt, with the club owned by the person under whose stewardship that debt largely accrued, and ownership gradually taken away from the fans. Critical of the absurdity of installing a 29 year old with no experience of anything as chairman/MD or whatever. Critical of the A Level E grade 5 pillars, an embarrassing interlude which appears to have been consigned to where it belongs. Critical of the personnel running the football club. Critical of the fact there never has been a single person with direct knowledge of football on the board of directors. Critical that - despite promises - there is no fans representative on the board of directors. Critical of the irrelevance of Bristol Sport and indeed the concerns over the influence which this entity now has over OUR football club. Notice that with the exception of SOD when it was clear where we were headed, I have always been fully behind every manager. Now, we are where we are, and although I strongly disagree with the concept of one individual owning what is a community asset, since SL has put himself in the position where he does control the club, I would say he has a moral duty to put every penny he has into the club, otherwise its control without any responsibility, which really would be egotistic, and so in that sense I agree he should be using his ££££££££'s. Given that, what would be your business plan going forwards to make Bristol City successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanderingred Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 6 hours ago, spudski said: But you have to ask yourself why we have had a Century of underachievement? Fantastic fan base...good money coming through the gates, and in recent years millions of pounds thrown at the Club by SL. Any Professional footballer see's our history...especially recent. They will see the new stadium, the ambition, the recent L1 win and the amount of money spent by SL. They will also have seen numerous good managers and players under achieve here. So...those players and their advisors and agents will look at all those facts, and ask...WHY? Why have BCFC failed, with all that money, all those players, all those paying fans, and all those managers? Ask yourself what the one constant is. Are we 'Professional' enough at this standard, compared to other clubs? Have we had the Coach's, Scouts, analysts, old footballing heads of experience in place etc, etc, etc. That's a cracking post sir and I agree. Id be asking myself the exact same questions if I was somebody like Clough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citywest30 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 But what contradicts your view Spudski is the sounds coming out of the Clough camp that we showed ourselves off well and did 'all we could'. You may or may not have contacts, I'm not debating that but you do come across sometimes as taking satisfaction in talking our club down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 13 minutes ago, citywest30 said: But what contradicts your view Spudski is the sounds coming out of the Clough camp that we showed ourselves off well and did 'all we could'. You may or may not have contacts, I'm not debating that but you do come across sometimes as taking satisfaction in talking our club down. I'm sorry if you see me as someone as taking satisfaction in taking our club down...you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm just frustrated at seeing our Club run so poorly. I know we sell ourselves well to players and agents...players and managers wouldn't come here unless we did. From what I've heard on many occasions, is that they say one thing...and then do something else when in position....all alleged of course...but it has been a constant to what I've heard. You've only got to look at this season transfer debacle to get the drift of such things. 1 hour ago, NickJ said: OK then spud, here's your chance. I too have been critical of the way the club has been run over the past 10-12 years. Critical of SL and the way in which a club which after 1982 steadily built into a supporter owned financially independent entity with positive balance sheet reserves of over £10m, to within a few years in substantial debt, with the club owned by the person under whose stewardship that debt largely accrued, and ownership gradually taken away from the fans. Critical of the absurdity of installing a 29 year old with no experience of anything as chairman/MD or whatever. Critical of the A Level E grade 5 pillars, an embarrassing interlude which appears to have been consigned to where it belongs. Critical of the personnel running the football club. Critical of the fact there never has been a single person with direct knowledge of football on the board of directors. Critical that - despite promises - there is no fans representative on the board of directors. Critical of the irrelevance of Bristol Sport and indeed the concerns over the influence which this entity now has over OUR football club. Notice that with the exception of SOD when it was clear where we were headed, I have always been fully behind every manager. Now, we are where we are, and although I strongly disagree with the concept of one individual owning what is a community asset, since SL has put himself in the position where he does control the club, I would say he has a moral duty to put every penny he has into the club, otherwise its control without any responsibility, which really would be egotistic, and so in that sense I agree he should be using his ££££££££'s. Given that, what would be your business plan going forwards to make Bristol City successful? I've spoken about this many times in the past on here Nick...perhaps you've not noticed. But I agree with you on many of your points. I touched on where we need to improve in my first post. More money needs to be invested in bringing 'football people' onto the board. Scouting, Academy, people running the club, analysts, Coach's...not a Director of football....but Directors of football....all need to be invested heavily in. Don't let one man....the manager, change everything to 'his way'. Because when you do allow it, the next manager who comes in, has to start again. The Directors of football should choose our coach's, staff, our players...then you get a manager to manage them, the 'Clubs way'....then if he can't motivate, you move him on and find someone who can.... it's seamless. You mention SoD...you couldn't be further from the truth when it came to sorting this Club out. All recent managers have come in and focussed on the first team and it's players, and what they can do...and purely focussed on that. SoD came in, and went through the Club with a fine tooth comb. I agree he failed to get results....but he worked his socks off trying to get this Club working as it should be. He actually looked at making a difference to this club long term, not just for the duration of his contract. If we had the people in place to run this Club professionally to the standard of the Championship, then I'm sure he could have been more successful on the pitch.....but he was driven to try and make things run better 'behind the scenes' that I feel detracted short term...but we would have benefited long term. I know it hasn't happened....but if we get relegated this year, what was the point of winning league 1 last season if we can't compete at this level. Like I've said over and over.....all managers struggle here....as SC is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citywest30 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 @spudski I'm sure you do care but I'm just saying that it can be overdone sometimes and then looks like you're revelling in it somewhat. I'm sure some of what Cotts does is for his own short term gains but I also see him helping the development squad 'develop' albeit I agree some could get more game time. As for SoD. He talked a great game and talked a great club but he didn't produce results. I don't think Cotts is as selfishly driven as you make out tho does seem to have a big ego. I really feel he cares and more importantly gets results (this season not so much so far). I know which I'd prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 2 minutes ago, citywest30 said: @spudski I'm sure you do care but I'm just saying that it can be overdone sometimes and then looks like you're revelling in it somewhat. I'm sure some of what Cotts does is for his own short term gains but I also see him helping the development squad 'develop' albeit I agree some could get more game time. Revell in it? Never mate....just total frustration. With respect....you've seen SC helping the 'Development squads'....how so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citywest30 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Like i said, I'm sure you care and don't enjoy it but it can come across that way sometimes, at least to me. Developing it in terms of encouraging Wade to take charge and get some players in specifically for the squad. I don't know much about behind the scenes and maybe he doesn't have much else to do with it but I always think he comes across as someone who really cares about our club (and maybe this is partly because he cares about his own success and reputation but really that's what management is all about in football). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, citywest30 said: Like i said, I'm sure you care and don't enjoy it but it can come across that way sometimes, at least to me. Developing it in terms of encouraging Wade to take charge and get some players in specifically for the squad. I don't know much about behind the scenes and maybe he doesn't have much else to do with it but I always think he comes across as someone who really cares about our club (and maybe this is partly because he cares about his own success and reputation but really that's what management is all about in football). Apologies if that's how you see it...not intentional.I'm so gonna get slagged off for saying this...but if you have time and are interested...read this 3 page interview to understand how a manager thinks when he see's the club and not just his self worth.... http://www.goalfood.com/fanzine/interviews/june-2009-sean-odriscoll-interview.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citywest30 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 A good read Spudski and like I said he talks a good game. For what it's worth, I don't think he was that far away and given more time may have done ok but I don't for one second regret the club's decision as last season was the season of a lifetime and I'll always be grateful to Cotts for that. SoD for me was possibly the right man at the wrong time - he just couldn't get rid of the losing mentality something that Cotts did with ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshtonGreat Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 8 hours ago, spudski said: But you have to ask yourself why we have had a Century of underachievement? Fantastic fan base...good money coming through the gates, and in recent years millions of pounds thrown at the Club by SL. Any Professional footballer see's our history...especially recent. They will see the new stadium, the ambition, the recent L1 win and the amount of money spent by SL. They will also have seen numerous good managers and players under achieve here. So...those players and their advisors and agents will look at all those facts, and ask...WHY? Why have BCFC failed, with all that money, all those players, all those paying fans, and all those managers? Ask yourself what the one constant is. Are we 'Professional' enough at this standard, compared to other clubs? Have we had the Coach's, Scouts, analysts, old footballing heads of experience in place etc, etc, etc. Good fanbase. I would say fantastic is pushing it a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid in the Riot Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 2 hours ago, citywest30 said: But what contradicts your view Spudski is the sounds coming out of the Clough camp that we showed ourselves off well and did 'all we could'. You may or may not have contacts, I'm not debating that but you do come across sometimes as taking satisfaction in talking our club down. I am sure we did show ourselves off well. With the new facilities that have been constructed, both up at the training ground and at AG, we SHOULD be doing a good job of selling the club. However, ultimately the proof is in the pudding - will Clough join? Unfortunately as of now it looks unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider city red 81 Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 9 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: Done what? Cheated Brian Wilson out of an extra career goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CotswoldRed Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 8 hours ago, Rednwhiterob said: Being totally Frank, I think we're not as 'fashionable' as a number of rivals in this division. Some of the money we've offered for players this season shows we need to pay over the odds, and with our league position, even that doesn't mean players will want to join us. Somehow, we need to up our game in scouting and analysis to root out young undervalued talent which we can develop, benefit from and sell on. Yep. Seems like the 'smaller' you are, the more you might have to offer/pay. Weird. Scouting is everything to a club like ours. More important than the academy by a long way imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted January 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 8 hours ago, spudski said: There are many egoists that own football clubs, wouldn't you agree? If you had the money SL has...what would you have done to make sure your football club could compete long term and not just short term? What 'foundations' does a Professional football club need in place, to have long term success? Not saying we aren't addressing those 'situations' now...but if I had the ££££££££'s that SL has and wanted success, i'd have gone about it totally differently to how he has. Yes, I believe you're probably right. I think that Steve Lansdown was so determined not to make the same mistake as he did last time around in the Championship that he ended making exactly the same mistake but in a different way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Dawe Posted January 12, 2016 Report Share Posted January 12, 2016 Brentford came up into this division just one year before us, and they have found a way. A way to more than survive. On 10,000 crowds. How have they managed to compete? Every club is unique, with their own challenges and drawbacks, and positives and attractions (some have more than others of these). The job of a club's directors and management is to find individual solutions to individual situations. We have drawbacks, do we have positives? Some smaller clubs similar to us that have come up from L1 and coped: Brentford, 10000 crowds. How have they coped? Bournemouth, 10000 crowds, a football "backwater" plus billionaire backer. How have they coped? Swansea, 15000 crowds in each of their 3 Champ seasons, a footballing "backwater," how did they cope? 3 recent examples there. Not greatly different to us. A number of similarities to us. All coped very well with similar challenges to us in this league. How come? Maybe there's more than one way to skin a cat and what we are trying at the moment isn't the right thing for us. If what we have tried is not working, is it possible we are trying the wrong approach? Maybe we should be doing something different. It is SL, SC, KB's responsibility to find the way that works for us. Not the way that works elsewhere. If it is too hard, impossible, not working trying to lure the best young talent in this league, perhaps this is not the best way. For us? Brentford, Bournemouth and Swansea found a way. Maybe ours needs a tweak, a rethink or a complete rethink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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