Being lead up the garden path.

[ciderup]

1 minute ago, NickJ said:

Statistically he is our best manager.

Having said that, Alan Dicks and Terry Cooper are for me the best managers in my lifetime for different reasons, but SC is a runaway 3rd; Johnson would have been up there were it not for basic failings.

Exactly Nick, statistics don't show circumstances and it's all about opinion. I meant no disrespect by saying your description was laughable but he's not our best ever Manager and in my opinion, much as I enjoyed his time here, he's not even close.

As I said, that's just my opinion but I agree Dicks and Cooper are certainly above him and I would probably put Gary J above him from recent years and maybe even Joe Jordan from further back.

The game's all about opinions.

[NickJ]

1 minute ago, ciderup said:

Exactly Nick, statistics don't show circumstances and it's all about opinion. I meant no disrespect by saying your description was laughable but he's not our best ever Manager and in my opinion, much as I enjoyed his time here, he's not even close.

As I said, that's just my opinion but I agree Dicks and Cooper are certainly above him and I would probably put Gary J above him from recent years and maybe even Joe Jordan from further back.

The game's all about opinions.

OK mate.

But there was a mix up, to put it politely, in the summer and Cotterill through no fault of his has carried the can for it, make no mistake.

I feel for him and worse I can see what an almighty **** up there has been to the detriment of our club for possibly years to come - again!

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, ciderup said:

Exactly Nick, statistics don't show circumstances and it's all about opinion. I meant no disrespect by saying your description was laughable but he's not our best ever Manager and in my opinion, much as I enjoyed his time here, he's not even close.

As I said, that's just my opinion but I agree Dicks and Cooper are certainly above him and I would probably put Gary J above him from recent years and maybe even Joe Jordan from further back.

The game's all about opinions.

It's fair enough, but from where he took over to where he left us in such a short space of time, money or not, is remarkable and worthy of plaudits nonetheless. Chelsea and Man City didn't turn around overnight, with SC we practically did - and I use those examples as I've seen 'man city of league one' bandied about. Well if it's relative, he had credit in the bank. 

[ciderup]

5 minutes ago, 29AR said:

It's fair enough, but from where he took over to where he left us in such a short space of time, money or not, is remarkable and worthy of plaudits nonetheless. Chelsea and Man City didn't turn around overnight, with SC we practically did - and I use those examples as I've seen 'man city of league one' bandied about. Well if it's relative, he had credit in the bank. 

I never said he didn't do a fine job 29AR as he certainly did. Since the summer though, as Nick intimates, something went dreadfully wrong and something had to change. I thank him and wish him well in the future but wouldn't put him down as our best ever Manager which is how this conversation started.

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, glos old boy said:

We had a chance before, in fact in many games we were very close to winning, so whats changed since? we have made a signing of some expensive guy in a suit and brought in a couple of loans.

Meanwhile the transfer window is passing us by and we don't have a permanent manager. Crazy imo how can we expect to sign anyone while we have a caretaker in charge surely any new manager will want to bring some players in and not be to keen to use others.

SC was sacked without any plan to replace him, and in the middle of a window.........really

Our squad is painfully thin and light weight in most areas, sacking SC WAS A MISTAKE if it was going to happen it should of before xmas,or not at all.

I cant see that we have any more chance of staying up now than we did a few weeks back imo we have less now.

I guess that something blew and made a difficult situation impossible. I'm agreed with you .

We are ,however,  lucky to have Pemberton and Elliot step up to the plate and I actually think that we are in safe hands with those two .

As for transfers ,well with the continental system we are supposedly employing , coaches come and go but the style of play of the club remains . It is up to the coach to get the best out of the existing players .

[BobBobSuperBob]

22 minutes ago, NickJ said:

OK mate.

But there was a mix up, to put it politely, in the summer and Cotterill through no fault of his has carried the can for it, make no mistake.

I feel for him and worse I can see what an almighty **** up there has been to the detriment of our club for possibly years to come - again!

Out of interest Nick does the 'mix up' you refer to involve a 'misunderstanding' about the beneficiaries of some 'deals' or possibly new contracts for existing players ?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, ciderup said:

I never said he didn't do a fine job 29AR as he certainly did. Since the summer though, as Nick intimates, something went dreadfully wrong and something had to change. I thank him and wish him well in the future but wouldn't put him down as our best ever Manager which is how this conversation started.

Yeah best ever may be pushing it as Nick agrees, but I'd mention him in the same breath as the others - along with your mention JJ too.

I honestly find where we came from, where we were left, considering the lack of harmony between club and fans at the time - funnily enough exacerbated by his appointment, for me too - with a transfer profit turned and profit predictably lying in Kodjia, Smith, Ayling, turning around Flint, Fielding etc utterly remarkable. 

We weren't just on course for relegation when he came, we were close to a huge number of fans walking away, me too. Indeed a number did and I remember laughing when attendance figures were announced in SODs final days because it made clear how many ST holders voted with their feet. From there the question became how will we fill 27,000... Let's recall 2ish years ago he came in undoubtedly to ST holders not even bothering to see the turd such was the disdain for the club and sub 10,000 attendances. I think all of this gets ignored in his achievements. He didn't turn around results, he brought back fans and brought back pride, trust in the boardroom and tolerance. 

I think he's become a victim of his own success. I've said it before and I stand by it, it's unreasonable to expect much more from a man who had 1 perm signing following promotion in my opinion. I find his sacking unreasonable and different heads should have rolled or at least rolled along with.  

[NickJ]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Out of interest Nick does the 'mix up' you refer to involve a 'misunderstanding' about the beneficiaries of some 'deals' or possibly new contracts for existing players ?

It might do and if it does I have no idea of the outcome.

Does it matter, unless you know of the outcome?

[screech]

32 minutes ago, NickJ said:

You are so wrong.

So we all dreamt it then.

[ciderup]

10 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Yeah best ever may be pushing it as Nick agrees, but I'd mention him in the same breath as the others - along with your mention JJ too.

I honestly find where we came from, where we were left, considering the lack of harmony between club and fans at the time - funnily enough exacerbated by his appointment, for me too - with a transfer profit turned and profit predictably lying in Kodjia, Smith, Ayling, turning around Flint, Fielding etc utterly remarkable. 

We weren't just on course for relegation when he came, we were close to a huge number of fans walking away, me too. Indeed a number did and I remember laughing when attendance figures were announced in SODs final days because it made clear how many ST holders voted with their feet. From there the question became how will we fill 27,000... Let's recall 2ish years ago he came in undoubtedly to ST holders not even bothering to see the turd was the disdain for the club and sub 10,000 attendances. I think all of this gets ignored in his achievements. He didn't turn around results, he brought back fans and brought back pride, trust in the boardroom and tolerance. 

I think he's become a victim of his own success. I've said it before and I stand by it, it's unreasonable to expect much more from a man who had 1 perm signing following promotion in my opinion. I find his sacking unreasonable and different heads should have rolled or at least rolled along with.  

While I agree with the highlighted bit whole heartedly, I can't accept that he was totally blameless in the ensuing cock up because I have no idea what actually went on in the summer.

The second and third paragraphs are pretty much spot on too but it doesn't mean we should have trudged on with the same excuses, formations and defeats that have happened since we came up IMHO. His success probably entitles him to more time which, I believe, he was given but with no signs of things improving, something had to give.

I'm not sure if the 'rug wasn't pulled from under his feet' in the form of finance but I'm sure we will have more idea when we see how much the new guy is backed. If we find the new boss gets more financial backing, it would point me to ask, why SC wasn't given the same courtesy, unless he was being forced out? It's all speculation on my part and I'm most certainly NOT an ITK person, just a supporter.

[BobBobSuperBob]

8 minutes ago, NickJ said:

It might do and if it does I have no idea of the outcome.

Does it matter, unless you know of the outcome?

I don't know of any ' outcome ' as such but was most intrigued when you mentioned 'misunderstanding' a couple of weeks back

Also what Tetbury posted

A lot of pieces of a jigsaw interestingly coming clearly from different sources and directions

I don't Know anything directly, have been  related bits of ,allegedly what went on, but have listened to various accounts , looked at what we do know (In public domain) and think I have a account of what went on that's not far away from what happened

As far as I can make there is nothing to suggest there was anymore than a misunderstanding / false belief that had obvious significant reactions from significant figures that threw a major spanner in the summers dealings - to start with at least

I know that's all very cryptic but if we are on similar lines I think you will understand what I'm saying

 

It doesn't really affect much , I am intrigued like we all are and believe I'm very close that's all

In fairness you certainly think it matters and mention it in vague terms regularly which is fair enough

As I see it SC had a big spanner appear in the summers works but then became petulant and bitter instead of moving on so fault all round

[Vincent Vega]

4 minutes ago, screech said:

So we all dreamt it then.

No it happened. .but please explain if it was all down to Cutts and there is a decent amount of money available why we can't sign a 20 year old from a team below us and a player from Gillingham. ?

[shelts]

46 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Statistically he is our best manager.

Having said that, Alan Dicks and Terry Cooper are for me the best managers in my lifetime for different reasons, but SC is a runaway 3rd; Johnson would have been up there were it not for basic failings.

Dicks got us to the top. Cooper woke the club up and gave it its first taste of Wembley. Johnson and Cotts both got found out, I'd give it just to Gary as he had me dreaming of the Prem!!

[screech]

1 minute ago, Doozerchris said:

No it happened. .but please explain if it was all down to Cutts and there is a decent amount of money available why we can't sign a 20 year old from a team below us and a player from Gillingham. ?

Well if you were Clough what are the benefits of joining us over staying put at this moment. And if we haven't matched Gillinghams asking price because they want us to really over pay for possibly their best player, what can we do about that?

[Chairman Mao]

1 hour ago, 29AR said:

But if you look back to prior accounts not a wildly different wage bill to a certain mr o Driscoll who, granted never had transfer fees but he still had trimmed the squad of a lot of excess wages and yet still spent similar per week. Baldock may have accounted for a fair bit and JET too but sC replaced one of those (being the divisions leading goals order) and ultimately spun a transfer profit with a similar wage outlay and yet he delivered results. 

If SC had a golden spoon then it highlights just how incompetent sod was and I see some very selective interpretation going on here - not aimed at you Chairman. 

Ultimately Sc spent money, but spent it wisely and delivered. I see no stick to beat him with or downplay his achievement 

yeah, SOD obviously underperformed badly in L1.

tbf I'm guessing quite a few under him like Fontaine and Elliott were on big wage and pretty much deadweight for SOD but still, he brought in good players like Pack and Williams but couldn't reverse the clubs steady decline, Cotterill did an amazing job for sure in 13-14

[NickJ]

5 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I don't know of any ' outcome ' as such but was most intrigued when you mentioned 'misunderstanding' a couple of weeks back

Also what Tetbury posted

A lot of pieces of a jigsaw interestingly coming clearly from different sources and directions

I don't Know anything directly but have listened to various accounts , looked at what we do know (In public domain) and think I have a account of what went on that's not far away from what happened

As far as I can make there is nothing to suggest there was anymore than a misunderstanding / false belief that had obvious significant reactions from significant figures that threw a major spanner in the summers dealings - to start with at least

I know that's all very cryptic but if we are on similar lines I think you will understand what I'm saying

Absolutely mate. And those significant figures with genuine but false beliefs could have done the honourable thing by holding their hands up.

And irrespective of what anybody thinks about Cotterill's managerial abilities - and IMO only a fool would believe they do not "show promise" at the very least - unless anyone can show me evidence as to otherwise, which surely if is was the case would have happened by now, our enormously successful manager was shafted by people that seemingly haven't got a clue what they are doing. 

[ciderup]

Fellas, you're talking in riddles about what did or didn't happen WTGR. While you two may know what happened, the rest of us don't. Could you enlighten us so we can join in this conversation? 

'Significant reactions from significant figures'?

' significant figures with genuine but false beliefs'?

A tad frustrating for us if you don't mind. 

[Vincent Vega]

14 minutes ago, screech said:

Well if you were Clough what are the benefits of joining us over staying put at this moment. And if we haven't matched Gillinghams asking price because they want us to really over pay for possibly their best player, what can we do about that?

But the money is there yeah...?

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

Statistically he is our best manager.

Having said that, Alan Dicks and Terry Cooper are for me the best managers in my lifetime for different reasons, but SC is a runaway 3rd; Johnson would have been up there were it not for basic failings.

Alan Dicks took over as manager from Fred Ford in 1967, and I can assure you that, for several consecutive years prior to getting us to the promised land of Division 1, he, together with the late Harry Dolman, Chairman and generous benefactor, was frequently the subject of the most awful vitriol and clamours for their dismissal/resignation. 

[BobBobSuperBob]

19 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Absolutely mate. And those significant figures with genuine but false beliefs could have done the honourable thing by holding their hands up.

And irrespective of what anybody thinks about Cotterill's managerial abilities - and IMO only a fool would believe they do not "show promise" at the very least - unless anyone can show me evidence as to otherwise, which surely if is was the case would have happened by now, our enormously successful manager was shafted by people that seemingly haven't got a clue what they are doing. 

From what I believe IMO I think you may well be right Nick - I don't know the exact cause / reason / justification for the belief for the 'misunderstanding' and have taken certain actions / non actions since, by those at the top as as some form of significant answer to those particular questions about the 'misunderstanding'

If I am right I seriously believe that the issue further cost us as a club as those at the helm were reluctant to make decisions about SC future due to what had happened and felt obliged to gibpve him longer than they or some of them really wanted to (I know you will prob disagree with that)

Where we also disagree is SCs approach after this point where I think it's absolutely apparent that he sulked about the summers events, became stubborn and difficult and made it it a constant message to the board / agenda to his final day in detriment and at a cost to the players , fans and club as a whole and ultimately to himself

IMO He should have got on with what was left of the window, forgot his grievances and got on with what he had and could get

Ineresting

and sad - i had lots of mixed views about SC , will always be grateful for what he did here but let last summer drag him down into something that has cost us all and himself

 

as I said major fault all round IMO ( Although I think you are a bit harsh on some people who had to make big decisions at that time , on the information they had  at that time,  of the 'misunderstanding') 

 

[ciderup]

This is starting to piss me off now!

Either let us know what you two are talking about or do it by PM boys please. 

Bob, your first paragraph means nothing to the vast majority of us. Unless we have some idea, it's utter gibberish mate!

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, ciderup said:

This is starting to piss me off now!

Either let us know what you two are talking about or do it by PM boys please. 

Think that's fair enough ciderup - I would be if roles reversed - bear with me - as a decent and sensible fella you may understand any poster would be daft to throw too much detail round on a public forum from a legal perspective alone and out of decency / respect for those subject of all this confusion

I make it absolutely clear - I do not know any more or perhaps as much as some posters on here tho I suspect we all are getting information second, third, fourth hand A- unless one of us is a significant figure at the club !

 

Im trying to work out how I can explain what my jigsaw looks like without crossing any legal boundaries or sullying any,persons reputation without hard evidence

[ciderup]

1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Think that's fair enough ciderup - I would be if roles reversed - bear with me - as a decent and sensible fella you may understand any poster would be daft to throw too much detail round on a public forum from a legal perspective alone and out of decency / respect for those subject of all this confusion

I make it absolutely clear - I do not know any more or perhaps as much as some posters on here tho I suspect we all are getting information second, third, fourth hand A- unless one of us is a significant figure at the club !

 

Im trying to work out how I can explain what my jigsaw looks like without crossing any legal boundaries or sullying any,persons reputation without hard evidence

Take it to a private message chat with Nick mate if you don't mind Bob. It's incredibly frustrating to read for someone that doesn't know what you two know.

Ta.

[RumRed]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

Claims on LinkedIn page to have been a Director at West Bromwich Albion Football Club for 14 years.

Very short stints at Watford, Wycombe and Oxford.

Fan forum views at those clubs not very complimentary - but then some posters on here have been very uncomplimentary about our best ever manager so maybe he is good!

 

Best ever manager? Crikey.

[Maesknoll Red]

6 hours ago, bs3 said:

How are we expected to sign any players with out a manager in place. 

 

I'm not convinced that players are that bothered about the Manager, maybe with a few exceptions like Ferguson, Guidiola, but not in the lower leagues.  Players know that Managers office doors have a new name plate before the varnish on the previous one is dry.

Their is a structure in place for identifying players (I don't know enough about it to have an opinion whether it's a good thing or not) and people who can negotiate and sign, so not having a Manager is not necessarily a major hindrance to signing players.

[BobBobSuperBob]

10 minutes ago, ciderup said:

This is starting to piss me off now!

Either let us know what you two are talking about or do it by PM boys please. 

Bob, your first paragraph means nothing to the vast majority of us. Unless we have some idea, it's utter gibberish mate!

Just the first paragraph ? !!!

Which bit mate I'll see if I can make myself clearer

(I'm not trying to be clever or 'we know more than you' btw - my cryptic type messages to Nick were due to the sensitive nature of the whole thing and my lack of direct knowledge) You are right - should have PMd Nick

[screech]

19 minutes ago, Doozerchris said:

But the money is there yeah...?

I have absolutley no reason to doubt otherwise.

I have every faith that what Steve Lansdown has said regarding making the money available for Cotterill to use is true. It was a stick people used to beat him with but he's backed every manager that's been here. Now I don't think for one minute that he gets every decision right and they can change their mind on strategy, but I trust his word when he says he never said no to any deal over the summer.

[ciderup]

18 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

From what I believe IMO I think you may well be right Nick - I don't know the exact cause / reason / justification for the belief for the 'misunderstanding' and have taken certain actions / non actions since, by those at the top as as some form of significant answer to those particular questions about the 'misunderstanding'

as I said major fault all round IMO ( Although I think you are a bit harsh on some people who had to make big decisions at that time , on the information they had  at that time,  of the 'misunderstanding') 

 

Eh? 

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Doozerchris said:

But the money is there yeah...?

Do the accounts made public yesterday show that we perhaps might've needed to be a little more prudent than perhaps we thought?  Not saying SL wouldn't have splashed what he thought was a tidy wage for the marquee (dislike that phrase) signing, Andre Gray.  What I think is that he wasn't gonna splash a wage on an average player.  No idea of amounts but we've heard that there is a £15k wage cap....that doesn't mean you spend that max on an average player....or a 20 year old who's trying to get as much out if a deal he doesn't really fancy....or for a player that might upset the harmony if the dressing room because they're on much less, and aren't justifying it.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Right - here go's

For the sake of everyone's sanity gonna throw my penny in the mix

I make it clear that I have no more direct knowledge of what happened in the summer but have, like everyone else been intrigued to know as it was clearly a significant few weeks in this clubs recent history

bearing in mind I wasn't SCs biggest fan personality wise and not an obvious supporter of his I do personally believe that due to a 'misunderstanding' (think NickJs references) over transfer deals or contracts early in the summer there may have been a major fall out within certain key positions at the club and it may be that as a result of the misunderstanding some obvious and immediate decisions had to be made and the halt/brake may have been put on transfer dealings ( Think Tetburys post )  at that time.

Both this things , from two people / posters I don't know , with it would appear different sources knit in largely with something that I heard , albeit from a slightly different perspective / account

It may be that once the misunderstanding had been sorted out things had moved on in the market and well Everyone can  judge the subsequent events in that window and since for themselves

Ive outlined my humble personal opinion on SCs actions from that point above (most of which I derive from his public actions and interviews)

I also believe (my opinion) hat SC may have been allowed more time in post due to he decisions that had to be made initially on the back of any possible misunderstanding ((I have no evidence on this but it would be an obvious human reaction consequence if I've got the jigsaw right)

I know this is still slightly cryptic - but a I personally believe a lot of answers and pieces of the 'jigsaw 'have been posted on this forum albeit by a number of different posters

I have also been told something regarding the nature of the ' misunderstanding' that would make sense and fit the jigsaw but which I have no hard or direct evidence of and will never repeat on here for obvious reasons- I hope you can interpret that and understand

I should point out before anyone gets carried away with any theories that as far as I can see no one at the Club  has done anything 'wrong' (in the summer) as such and as Nick has , I believe accurately used the word 'misunderstanding'