Lanterne Rouge Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 1 minute ago, gordie said: Not sure if this is correct or not but I'm sure I have read it somewhere that if the team is virtually down the points are deducted the following season, and they will start on minus points, if that is the case Bolton might have to take the hit next season if they do go into administration. It is correct. There`s a cut off point where if they pass it, they have to take the hit next season. There didn`t used to be until Leeds took the piss one year and took the deduction after they were already relegated. I`m not sure when the deadline is though - must be around ten games off the end I should have thought. One of the posts above says they`ve already filed for admin though so perhaps they have decided to take it this season. The big stumbling block will be HMRC though - if they don`t agree they can go into admin, they won`t be allowed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickolas Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 1 hour ago, The Gasbuster said: Looking forward to that ! Not sure the little runt knows what is going to hit him on the 19th ?! Hopefully nathan baker, in true nathan baker fashion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottishRed Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 15 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said: It is correct. There`s a cut off point where if they pass it, they have to take the hit next season. There didn`t used to be until Leeds took the piss one year and took the deduction after they were already relegated. I`m not sure when the deadline is though - must be around ten games off the end I should have thought. One of the posts above says they`ve already filed for admin though so perhaps they have decided to take it this season. The big stumbling block will be HMRC though - if they don`t agree they can go into admin, they won`t be allowed to. HMRC take no prisoners, if they can't pay what they are due they will push for liquidation, the court may take a different view but they will have to show that they can pay HMRC in very short order or they will be done for. Dont think it will effect anything as I truly believe they will get relegated even if there is no points deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 1 hour ago, samo II said: Cheers for that; wasn't sure how it panned out in that scenario, but makes sense. Would probably play more havoc with those teams up and around the playoff chasing teams; having a quick look, a you might see a fair bit of movement between around 9th and 3rd place, with the likes of Brighton profiting over Hull and others. Even just admin would put them down; in that instance, a win on 19 March is more than essential. I'm not sure when it bites but if you wait too long to go in to admin the deduction carries over to the following season and you incur a larger deduction. I have in my mind that Leeds cynically waited until they were mathematically relegated and then entered admin - effectively no penalty - and prompted a rule change edit The fourth Thursday in March seems to be the cut off - so the 24th, after this date they start the next season minus 10 unless they stay up in which case it hits this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, ScottishRed said: HMRC take no prisoners, if they can't pay what they are due they will push for liquidation, the court may take a different view but they will have to show that they can pay HMRC in very short order or they will be done for. Dont think it will effect anything as I truly believe they will get relegated even if there is no points deduction. I know from bitter experience they don`t believe me! I think they have (or very shortly will have) the money to pay HMRC and will then go into admin taking the deduction this season. They already know they need a miracle to stay up so why wouldn`t they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, 29AR said: I'm not sure when it bites but if you wait too long to go in to admin the deduction carries over to the following season and you incur a larger deduction. I have in my mind that Leeds cynically waited until they were mathematically relegated and then entered admin - effectively no penalty - and prompted a rule change The rules were changed after the Leeds fiasco - see my post above - but no-one seems to know when the cut off point is. It can`t be much after 10 games or so to go though could it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 3 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said: The rules were changed after the Leeds fiasco - see my post above - but no-one seems to know when the cut off point is. It can`t be much after 10 games or so to go though could it? Per wiki 4th thurs in March, so 24th, but it only carries over if they are relegated. If they are not then it comes off this season, so it could relegate them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6736997.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, 29AR said: Per wiki 4th thurs in March, so 24th, but it only carries over if they are relegated. If they are not then it comes off this season, so it could relegate them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6736997.stm Seems a bit harsh to do it that way. If they`re going down anyway, as I`m sure they think they are, there`s no point in taking it this season as they`ll still get hit next year. The only slight advantage is if they think they could somehow scramble enough points to finish four from bottom but then would still go down but wouldn`t start on minus points next season. A lose-lose whichever way you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 4 minutes ago, 29AR said: Per wiki 4th thurs in March, so 24th, but it only carries over if they are relegated. If they are not then it comes off this season, so it could relegate them. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6736997.stm They'll surely not have the option of applying it next season; with their court appearance being on March 21st, they'll either pay their bill then immediately go into relegation, or get wound up, or am I misinterpreting the situation? Even if they can pay their bill, they won't be able to service their debts without a significantly larger investment than the £7.5 million Sports Shield are offering (and that was before one of their investors pulled out at the 11th hour), so they'll either vanish or immediately be a minimum of 11 points from safety (they are currently 10 points off with three to play before then) with only eight matches remaining. I'm probably wrong; I'm not smart on all this, but does look like a very sticky situation - fair few things said by Bolton fans that I've seen online don't have them being very confident of getting the fund they need in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Seems to be some confusion re dates. From their forum "Clubs entering administration after the third Thursday in March may have their 12-point deduction deferred until the following season. The third Thursday this March is the 17th, four days before our next planned court date." http://www.osborneclarke.com/connected-insights/blog/shifting-goalposts-new-rules-football-insolvency/ All seems very odd, as I thought they had now been taken over. Feels like somebody is playing an extreme version of brinkmanship. For the life of me, cannot see why they would allow themselves to be liquidated, when surely admin is a better option? Not nice, but at least in time the could rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 5 minutes ago, cityexile said: Seems to be some confusion re dates. From their forum "Clubs entering administration after the third Thursday in March may have their 12-point deduction deferred until the following season. The third Thursday this March is the 17th, four days before our next planned court date." All seems very odd, as I thought they had now been taken over. Feels like somebody is playing an extreme version of brinkmanship. For the life of me, cannot see why they would allow themselves to be liquidated, when surely admin is a better option? Not nice, but at least in time the could rebuild. So if they opt to take the hit this season, which would seem the least worst option, they would have to have paid (or at least have guarantees in place to pay) HMRC by the 17th so they allow them to go into admin. If they leave it any later, they start next season on -12. Confusing ain`t it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Was bored. If they disappear, the table will look like Fulham 36 Bristol C 36 Hudds 39 33 MK DONS 32 Roth'm 32 29 Charlton 27 Obviously then just two going down. Us and Fulham benefit relatively, big losers are Huddersfield, who lose six points. Do not expect that to happen, and in truth do not want it to happen, just interested to know how it played out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Assuming they don't get wound up, are they 100% going into administration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityexile Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 20 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Assuming they don't get wound up, are they 100% going into administration? Not close to all the facts, but the best case for them is that their takeover goes through the final stages in the next week or so, and raises enough to pay the tax. No idea atall how likely that is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, cityexile said: Not close to all the facts, but the best case for them is that their takeover goes through the final stages in the next week or so, and raises enough to pay the tax. No idea atall how likely that is! The big drama today was them losing part of the consortium, so I guess they'll have to find more money from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 Shambles isn't it. I don't want to see a famous club go to the wall but the wages they're paying (not inc other bonuses) is shocking...and is not a level playing field. I accept this is a bit hypocritical re 1982, but this is a different financial world we are playing in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 So looks like their takeover has gone through and admin avoided? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WsM-Red Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 18 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: So looks like their takeover has gone through and admin avoided? Just from reading the above, it would seem they need to pay HMRC first maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 2 hours ago, WsM-Red said: Just from reading the above, it would seem they need to pay HMRC first maybe? From the Beeb: The Sports Shield consortium has completed its £7.5m takeover of Championship club Bolton Wanderers. Ex-Bolton striker Dean Holdsworth, who leads the group, will join the board of directors while former owner Eddie Davies will become honorary president. A winding-up petition against Bolton over an unpaid tax bill was adjourned at the High Court on Monday to give the group more time to complete the deal. Holdsworth said that the bill had now been paid in full. Bolton who are currently bottom of the Championship, were £172.9m in debt but but it's believed the majority has been written off with Davies not wishing to claim back the money owed to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WsM-Red Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 9 minutes ago, One Team In Keynsham said: From the Beeb: The Sports Shield consortium has completed its £7.5m takeover of Championship club Bolton Wanderers. Ex-Bolton striker Dean Holdsworth, who leads the group, will join the board of directors while former owner Eddie Davies will become honorary president. A winding-up petition against Bolton over an unpaid tax bill was adjourned at the High Court on Monday to give the group more time to complete the deal. Holdsworth said that the bill had now been paid in full. Bolton who are currently bottom of the Championship, were £172.9m in debt but but it's believed the majority has been written off with Davies not wishing to claim back the money owed to him. So that's it now then? Taxman has been paid, generous ex owner doesn't want his £172.9m back, so all is forgotten? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One Team In Keynsham Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 7 minutes ago, WsM-Red said: So that's it now then? Taxman has been paid, generous ex owner doesn't want his £172.9m back, so all is forgotten? Certainly sounds as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne allisons tongues Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 The figures don't quite add up with the takeover. If they are losing 2 million a month and the consortium have 15 million to spend over 5 years, where's the rest of the money coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 20 minutes ago, wayne allisons tongues said: The figures don't quite add up with the takeover. If they are losing 2 million a month and the consortium have 15 million to spend over 5 years, where's the rest of the money coming from. Like Cardiff and Swindle before them, they will run up an entirely new bunch of debts which they will eventually hope can also be "forgotten". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchred Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said: Like Cardiff and Swindle before them, they will run up an entirely new bunch of debts which they will eventually hope can also be "forgotten". Hate to say this but quite similar to us as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 15 minutes ago, frenchred said: Hate to say this but quite similar to us as well! A bit, but we've always paid our tax bills. Lansdown is the only creditor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenchred Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 13 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said: A bit, but we've always paid our tax bills. Lansdown is the only creditor. I'm an old un mate, I was referring to when we nearly went to the wall and left lots and lots of local businesses down by not paying our debts off and forming a new club 1982! Hard to acknowledge but in the same situation we would do the same again I'm sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 1 minute ago, frenchred said: I'm an old un mate, I was referring to when we nearly went to the wall and left lots and lots of local businesses down by not paying our debts off and forming a new club 1982! Hard to acknowledge but in the same situation we would do the same again I'm sure! Ah right. Different times, different rules. We were unfortunate trail blazers in the over-reaching clubs going bust stakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 8 hours ago, WsM-Red said: Just from reading the above, it would seem they need to pay HMRC first maybe? Yeah that figures. I rather assumed that HMRC would have been top of Pile and that would have been factored in. In other words paying them off is a given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Yeah that figures. I rather assumed that HMRC would have been top of Pile and that would have been factored in. In other words paying them off is a given. Yeah they will have been and would have had no hesitation in liquidating the club if they hadn`t been paid. Whether or not they now go into admin remains to be seen - as I understand it they have to decide by next Thursday whether or not they are going to this season and take the 12 point hit now or they can wait and do it later but start on -12 next. It will depend on their current financial position I expect. 7.5 mill doesn`t seem a lot of investment given their debts to people other than their former owner so the consortium may see admin as an attractive option (if they think they`re already down anyway) - start with a clean slate next year and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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