The 'Right Fit and DNA'...

[spudski]

... we've all heard these terms being banded about recently with our own club...and it crossed my mind what a good bunch of lads we seem to have at the Club these days.

Things started to develop this way under SC and KB and seems to have continued under LJ and MA.

We've had a few 'bad eggs' here over the years...things seem to have changed and, imo...is one of the reasons we seem to have a great team unity, and desire to play for one another.

With the vast amounts of money being spent on players, it makes sense to investigate a players 'character' as well as football ability.

I mentioned recently about a player City we were interested in, who had immense football talent, but a terrible attitude, so didn't follow up on signing him.

It reminded me of a couple articles I had read, that can put it across better than me...some of you might be interested in this side of the game.

It certainly sheds some light on how things are developing.

Beware forum contributors who write 'Sensible' comments about players...as you will see in the below...

Quote...

There are plenty of common errors that bad football scouts make.

“That you see what you want to see and become emotional; that you already have a preconceived opinion,” explains Hammarby’s chief scout Mikael Hjelmberg.

What do scouts look at?

Sports director Ole Nielsen explains how important it is to follow a player off the pitch too. Scouts often browse internet forums seeking sensible information about the players, and can go as far as talking to the player’s friends and former colleagues in order to find out more about a player’s personality and behaviour.

Football clubs are paying more and more attention to a potential signing’s off-field traits before splashing out....

Date: May 2011.

Location: Udine, north-east Italy.

Target: Alexis Sanchez.

15:00 – Last player to exit the training ground, subject leaves in a sports car (white Audi R8). Shares joke with staff member, appears in good spirits.

15:20 – After a few minutes at home, subject emerges with two dogs (both Labrador, white/blond) and jogs through town. Still dressed in training gear.

16:30 – Plays tennis with friend. Wins with competent – if relaxed – performance (note: serve needs practice).

17:50 – Visits restaurant in city centre with girlfriend. Orders langoustines followed by pasta salad (no dressing). Drinks mineral water.

19:25 – Finishes with espresso (no dessert). Pays bill in cash. Signs autograph and poses for picture with fan upon exit.

20:15 – Subject plays the piano at home (melody unknown).

21:30 – Blinds are drawn, lights off. Subject believed to be asleep. Will remain until midnight to be certain.

In-depth dossier

 

With clubs routinely shelling out the type of sums on a player that could prop up a small nation’s economy, an individual’s personality is quickly becoming every bit as important as technical skill

 

If the above sounds like espionage – the sort of intrusive surveillance carried out by a private investigator or tabloid newspaper to land a pampered, well-heeled footballer in trouble – don’t be misled. It isn’t. Instead, such notes are a fictionalised, though only slightly, version of Manchester City (now Liverpool) scout Barry Hunter’s reconnaissance mission to Italy in 2011, ahead of the club’s proposed transfer of Alexis Sanchez.

The genuine investigation (which really did log the Chilean attacker’s tennis and piano skills) formed part of an extensive, 56-page dossier on the then-Udinese winger, conducted with permission of the club and – to a lesser extent – player. But, as you will no doubt be aware, such snooping proved futile, with Sanchez joining Barcelona later that summer (then Arsenal in 2014). And yet, though unsuccessful, this is merely one example of the lengths top clubs now go to in order to get their man.

 

“Ultimately, it isn’t always what a player does with the ball, a lot of it is what they do without it,” claims Bournemouth scout Taylor. “It comes down to work ethic, attitude and commitment. Are they a winner? How do they handle losing?

“You may have to look at a player who has flair, undoubted ability, but [you have to] consider what they would give you on a cold, wet winter’s night away at Millwall. Would they still be that player? We can’t get away from the fact that we can’t have any passengers. We have to know they won’t go missing.”

“As with an employee in any business, you want to know that person has a good family history, background and is a stable personality,” admits scout Taylor. “We all know that marriage and children brings stability to a relationship, and you want to be aware of anything outside of the working environment that may distract the person from doing their job to the best of their ability.”

 

“If we go out and recruit the wrong player, who's going to be a bad egg in the dressing room, then we’re not doing our job right,” claims Des Taylor. “We owe it to the other players to make sure the players we bring in are going to fit into the group – not just on the playing side, but in terms of psychology and mentality. We have to leave as little to chance as possible. That means we have to get good people with good mentalities, good attitudes – I don’t think we’ll ever forsake or err away from that.”

These days, on-pitch ability is but one piece of an ever-expanding puzzle. With football clubs routinely shelling out the type of sums on a player that could prop up a small nation’s economy, an individual’s personality is quickly becoming every bit as important as technical skill, with everything from mental toughness to the company they keep dissected carefully before a bid is made, let alone contract offered. Watching a player at an away fixture and reporting back to the manager is one thing, but what of his activities on a balmy summer’s night in the Algarve? And what’s his agent like? Are we sure his model girlfriend won’t prove too much a distraction during the season’s run-in?
 

 

 

[Davefevs]

@spudski I'm guessing you've read Michael Calvin's book on scouting?

i know us posters on here aren't gonna go to the length's above, but it would be nice if we went a little bit deeper than reading the goals versus games on the Wikipedia summary for a player.  You'd never sign a Wilbraham otherwise.  

[dee redfern]

it seems to me that rugby is b.c.f.cs' main handler. as they can have a bevie when watching rugby. it is ashame that when we go watch any of the matches. us lot aint aloud to drink.not being nasty. but supporters get tanked up anyways, and if some one is set out to do some think! yeppers they will do it. given example. please i know this is my want in life. i want to loose 5 stone and not let my artritis hamper me. and btw i am not really a book reader. don't have time and i fall asleep on the 3rd paige of every book i try to read  again an other example. my epilepsy medication knocks me out. again i still get up and go for a toby no matter how bad i feel. and back to what i was  saying. if people want to be idiots. they will be idiots. sorry for going on :laugh:  happy easter to you my friend  and thank you for letting me follow you. oh for the record i love lee johnson he is fit to begin with  all the best to you  love di dee

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@spudski I'm guessing you've read Michael Calvin's book on scouting?

i know us posters on here aren't gonna go to the length's above, but it would be nice if we went a little bit deeper than reading the goals versus games on the Wikipedia summary for a player.  You'd never sign a Wilbraham otherwise.  

'The Nowhere men'...yes I have Dave....it's a good little read.

True what you say...and I agree it's hard for fans to comment on players, as the majority have only what they see on the pitch and some stats to go by.

So many other factors come into a players performance that most are unaware of.

I was in a conversation with a couple Scouts who have been in the game for many years...during the conversation, the one from Birmingham City dropped in the line...'I hate talking to football fans, as they generally haven't got a clue what's going on'.

Whilst that sounds derogatory...he had a point.

So many factors that the general fan has no idea about.

I hope that doesn't come across as pompous...his words, not mine... not the fans fault is it.

[Eddie Hitler]

Well said Dee, that is indeed how we signed Wilbrahim and what a great signing he has been.

[Tipps69]

4 minutes ago, cynic said:

Have I just entered a parallel universe ?

No, I think the Toby has just kicked in 

[joe jordans teeth]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

... we've all heard these terms being banded about recently with our own club...and it crossed my mind what a good bunch of lads we seem to have at the Club these days.

Things started to develop this way under SC and KB and seems to have continued under LJ and MA.

We've had a few 'bad eggs' here over the years...things seem to have changed and, imo...is one of the reasons we seem to have a great team unity, and desire to play for one another.

With the vast amounts of money being spent on players, it makes sense to investigate a players 'character' as well as football ability.

I mentioned recently about a player City we were interested in, who had immense football talent, but a terrible attitude, so didn't follow up on signing him.

It reminded me of a couple articles I had read, that can put it across better than me...some of you might be interested in this side of the game.

It certainly sheds some light on how things are developing.

Beware forum contributors who write 'Sensible' comments about players...as you will see in the below...

Quote...

There are plenty of common errors that bad football scouts make.

“That you see what you want to see and become emotional; that you already have a preconceived opinion,” explains Hammarby’s chief scout Mikael Hjelmberg.

What do scouts look at?

Sports director Ole Nielsen explains how important it is to follow a player off the pitch too. Scouts often browse internet forums seeking sensible information about the players, and can go as far as talking to the player’s friends and former colleagues in order to find out more about a player’s personality and behaviour.

Football clubs are paying more and more attention to a potential signing’s off-field traits before splashing out....

Date: May 2011.

Location: Udine, north-east Italy.

Target: Alexis Sanchez.

15:00 – Last player to exit the training ground, subject leaves in a sports car (white Audi R8). Shares joke with staff member, appears in good spirits.

15:20 – After a few minutes at home, subject emerges with two dogs (both Labrador, white/blond) and jogs through town. Still dressed in training gear.

16:30 – Plays tennis with friend. Wins with competent – if relaxed – performance (note: serve needs practice).

17:50 – Visits restaurant in city centre with girlfriend. Orders langoustines followed by pasta salad (no dressing). Drinks mineral water.

19:25 – Finishes with espresso (no dessert). Pays bill in cash. Signs autograph and poses for picture with fan upon exit.

20:15 – Subject plays the piano at home (melody unknown).

21:30 – Blinds are drawn, lights off. Subject believed to be asleep. Will remain until midnight to be certain.

In-depth dossier

 

With clubs routinely shelling out the type of sums on a player that could prop up a small nation’s economy, an individual’s personality is quickly becoming every bit as important as technical skill

 

If the above sounds like espionage – the sort of intrusive surveillance carried out by a private investigator or tabloid newspaper to land a pampered, well-heeled footballer in trouble – don’t be misled. It isn’t. Instead, such notes are a fictionalised, though only slightly, version of Manchester City (now Liverpool) scout Barry Hunter’s reconnaissance mission to Italy in 2011, ahead of the club’s proposed transfer of Alexis Sanchez.

The genuine investigation (which really did log the Chilean attacker’s tennis and piano skills) formed part of an extensive, 56-page dossier on the then-Udinese winger, conducted with permission of the club and – to a lesser extent – player. But, as you will no doubt be aware, such snooping proved futile, with Sanchez joining Barcelona later that summer (then Arsenal in 2014). And yet, though unsuccessful, this is merely one example of the lengths top clubs now go to in order to get their man.

 

“Ultimately, it isn’t always what a player does with the ball, a lot of it is what they do without it,” claims Bournemouth scout Taylor. “It comes down to work ethic, attitude and commitment. Are they a winner? How do they handle losing?

“You may have to look at a player who has flair, undoubted ability, but [you have to] consider what they would give you on a cold, wet winter’s night away at Millwall. Would they still be that player? We can’t get away from the fact that we can’t have any passengers. We have to know they won’t go missing.”

“As with an employee in any business, you want to know that person has a good family history, background and is a stable personality,” admits scout Taylor. “We all know that marriage and children brings stability to a relationship, and you want to be aware of anything outside of the working environment that may distract the person from doing their job to the best of their ability.”

 

“If we go out and recruit the wrong player, who's going to be a bad egg in the dressing room, then we’re not doing our job right,” claims Des Taylor. “We owe it to the other players to make sure the players we bring in are going to fit into the group – not just on the playing side, but in terms of psychology and mentality. We have to leave as little to chance as possible. That means we have to get good people with good mentalities, good attitudes – I don’t think we’ll ever forsake or err away from that.”

These days, on-pitch ability is but one piece of an ever-expanding puzzle. With football clubs routinely shelling out the type of sums on a player that could prop up a small nation’s economy, an individual’s personality is quickly becoming every bit as important as technical skill, with everything from mental toughness to the company they keep dissected carefully before a bid is made, let alone contract offered. Watching a player at an away fixture and reporting back to the manager is one thing, but what of his activities on a balmy summer’s night in the Algarve? And what’s his agent like? Are we sure his model girlfriend won’t prove too much a distraction during the season’s run-in?
 

 

 

Be interesting to read the scouts reports who followed Adam Johnson and what they had to write,or did they turn a blind eye to his antics 

[Major Isewater]

56 minutes ago, cynic said:

Have I just entered a parallel universe ?

Some one using your name just asked this question in the universe i've momentarily come back from .

[Major Isewater]

47 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Be interesting to read the scouts reports who followed Adam Johnson and what they had to write,or did they turn a blind eye to his antics 

Well they're going to pretty much know what he's up to for the next six years .

[GrahamC]

49 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Be interesting to read the scouts reports who followed Adam Johnson and what they had to write,or did they turn a blind eye to his antics 

Plus the comment about "good family history", plenty of footballers have come into the game following very difficult upbringings (what about the guy who captained Poland in the Euros, for instance, Blaszczykowski? look at what he overcame) and gone on to be really good players.

Get all the "good character" stuff, but not sure you shouldn't sign someone just because he has a tough start in life though..

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, cynic said:

Have I just entered a parallel universe ?

It's fair to assume that many on the forum are not of this world, so it's therefore fair to assume that the forum itself is a portal to another place. But be careful not to confuse parallel universe with parallel parking. 

[joe jordans teeth]

35 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Well they're going to pretty much know what he's up to for the next six years .

Playing around at the back

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Playing around at the back

Excuse me Adam, you've just dropped your bar of soap!

[spudski]

46 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Plus the comment about "good family history", plenty of footballers have come into the game following very difficult upbringings (what about the guy who captained Poland in the Euros, for instance, Blaszczykowski? look at what he overcame) and gone on to be really good players.

Get all the "good character" stuff, but not sure you shouldn't sign someone just because he has a tough start in life though..

I don't think it means that fella...it's just that they take everything into consideration these days.

If a player was acting in a certain way...it may come down to what happened in the past.

If the club knows the history of the player, they have a better way of judging a situation and reacting in the correct way.

This is what made Alex Ferguson such a great manager.

He had a personal document on each player...he was a great man manager as well as team manager.

Other managers often looked for problem players with talent...as they could often get them cheaper...Brian Clough for example.

But he was able to control them...others can't or don't know how too.

I think the main idea...is to keep harmony within the group of players...as one bad apple can ruin it for everyone.

[Roger Red Hat]

2 hours ago, dee redfern said:

it seems to me that rugby is b.c.f.cs' main handler. as they can have a bevie when watching rugby. it is ashame that when we go watch any of the matches. us lot aint aloud to drink.not being nasty. but supporters get tanked up anyways, and if some one is set out to do some think! yeppers they will do it. given example. please i know this is my want in life. i want to loose 5 stone and not let my artritis hamper me. and btw i am not really a book reader. don't have time and i fall asleep on the 3rd paige of every book i try to read  again an other example. my epilepsy medication knocks me out. again i still get up and go for a toby no matter how bad i feel. and back to what i was  saying. if people want to be idiots. they will be idiots. sorry for going on  happy easter to you my friend  and thank you for letting me follow you. oh for the record i love lee johnson he is fit to begin with  all the best to you  love di dee

Brilliant!

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

'The Nowhere men'...yes I have Dave....it's a good little read.

True what you say...and I agree it's hard for fans to comment on players, as the majority have only what they see on the pitch and some stats to go by.

So many other factors come into a players performance that most are unaware of.

I was in a conversation with a couple Scouts who have been in the game for many years...during the conversation, the one from Birmingham City dropped in the line...'I hate talking to football fans, as they generally haven't got a clue what's going on'.

Whilst that sounds derogatory...he had a point.

So many factors that the general fan has no idea about.

I hope that doesn't come across as pompous...his words, not mine... not the fans fault is it.

Its an interesting one, because I do believe there's a helluva lot of snobbery in the pro-game, e.g. How dare someone from outside the pro world criticise or comment someone or something inside it.  That is rubbish.  I accept we don't know the ins and outs but we can see things or at least have a view / opinion, especially during the 90 minutes.

I grew up not only playing football, but reading stuff about coaching, tactics etc (as well as Roy of the Rovers!), stuff by Venables, even Charles Hughes!

That's not to say though that I'm any better or worse qualified to have an opinion re Bristol City - that is the beauty of the game.

The pro-game isn't really interested in our views, but it won't stop us having them.

 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Its an interesting one, because I do believe there's a helluva lot of snobbery in the pro-game, e.g. How dare someone from outside the pro world criticise or comment someone or something inside it.  That is rubbish.  I accept we don't know the ins and outs but we can see things or at least have a view / opinion, especially during the 90 minutes.

I grew up not only playing football, but reading stuff about coaching, tactics etc (as well as Roy of the Rovers!), stuff by Venables, even Charles Hughes!

That's not to say though that I'm any better or worse qualified to have an opinion re Bristol City - that is the beauty of the game.

The pro-game isn't really interested in our views, but it won't stop us having them.

 

There is a certain type of 'protectionism' within the game Dave.

Very much a 'job for the boy's' still.

Managers and coach's getting jobs at clubs for their mates etc.

However....With the advent of technology, a lot of people from outside football are coming into the game.

It's the Clubs and managers, that realise a mix of both outside help, and 'inside' working side by side, that are the one's that will progress imo.

Like you say...fans can watch a game, and give an opinion based on what they witnessed.

But often they will not know why certain players do what they did on the pitch.

They don't know the Instruction they are being told to play under from a manager.

They don't know if a player is carrying a knock...his mental state...what's happening in his life etc.

These factors all have an influence on what happens over 90 mins.

It's the same when managers change...one player looks awful under one...then brilliant under another.

So many different factors, that the fan doesn't know about.

But like you say...opinions from fans will always be there :-)

 

 

[Davefevs]

Spot on.

[joe jordans teeth]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Its an interesting one, because I do believe there's a helluva lot of snobbery in the pro-game, e.g. How dare someone from outside the pro world criticise or comment someone or something inside it.  That is rubbish.  I accept we don't know the ins and outs but we can see things or at least have a view / opinion, especially during the 90 minutes.

I grew up not only playing football, but reading stuff about coaching, tactics etc (as well as Roy of the Rovers!), stuff by Venables, even Charles Hughes!

That's not to say though that I'm any better or worse qualified to have an opinion re Bristol City - that is the beauty of the game.

The pro-game isn't really interested in our views, but it won't stop us having them.

 

Ray houghton is perfect example when he used to be on talksport,if you haven't played at the highest level then according to him we haven't got a clue 

[Jack Dawe]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

What do scouts look at?

Sports director Ole Nielsen explains how important it is to follow a player off the pitch too. Scouts often browse internet forums seeking sensible information about the players, 

 

 

3 hours ago, spudski said:

I was in a conversation with a couple Scouts who have been in the game for many years...during the conversation, the one from Birmingham City dropped in the line...'I hate talking to football fans, as they generally haven't got a clue what's going on'.

 

 

Of course, the Birmingham City scout will have got it right every time, known "what's going on" every time, never missed a gem, never recommended a wrong 'un, unlike the average "clueless" football fan. 

What is a football scout, if he's not a football fan?

 

(I feel a response coming in which I will be addressed as "fella"..... )

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

 

 

Of course, the Birmingham City scout will have got it right every time, known "what's going on" every time, never missed a gem, never recommended a wrong 'un, unlike the average "clueless" football fan. 

What is a football scout, if he's not a football fan?

 

(I feel a response coming in which I will be addressed as "fella"..... )

An educated one ;-)

[Drew Peacock]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

There is a certain type of 'protectionism' within the game Dave.

Very much a 'job for the boy's' still.

Managers and coach's getting jobs at clubs for their mates etc.

However....With the advent of technology, a lot of people from outside football are coming into the game.

It's the Clubs and managers, that realise a mix of both outside help, and 'inside' working side by side, that are the one's that will progress imo.

Like you say...fans can watch a game, and give an opinion based on what they witnessed.

But often they will not know why certain players do what they did on the pitch.

They don't know the Instruction they are being told to play under from a manager.

They don't know if a player is carrying a knock...his mental state...what's happening in his life etc.

These factors all have an influence on what happens over 90 mins.

It's the same when managers change...one player looks awful under one...then brilliant under another.

So many different factors, that the fan doesn't know about.

But like you say...opinions from fans will always be there :-)

 

 

None of that matters,  football is in the entertainment industry and therefore the fan is always right even if it upsets the insiders.

[Jack Dawe]

If football clubs really want to know about the character of a player, the sort of person he is, then they'd be better off employing women to do this (no, not using honey traps etc), as they are far more intuitive than men and better "readers" of  people generally. Blokes are pretty "clueless" at this, especially ones that spend all their time watching football and talking about football and lurking on football forums!

[pongo88]

18 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Ray houghton is perfect example when he used to be on talksport,if you haven't played at the highest level then according to him we haven't got a clue 

People like him annoy me, as they've obviously never heard of Arsene Wenger or Jose Mourinho etc  . 

[spudski]

12 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

If football clubs really want to know about the character of a player, the sort of person he is, then they'd be better off employing women to do this (no, not using honey traps etc), as they are far more intuitive than men and better "readers" of  people generally. Blokes are pretty "clueless" at this, especially ones that spend all their time watching football and talking about football and lurking on football forums!

Contributors to accurate personality judgment[edit]

A variety of variables contribute to the accuracy or inaccuracy of personality judgment in systematic ways. These variables include characteristics of the individual whose personality is being judged as well as characteristics of the individual who is judging personality.[5]

Judge characteristics[edit]

Characteristics of the individual judging personality that contribute to accuracy include the following:

Gender and ethnic similarity to target[6]

A person is more likely to make an accurate personality judgment when the individual they are judging has the same gender and ethnicity as the judge.[6]

Stereotype knowledge and utilization,[7]

When judges are only aware of the target's group membership, judges are likely to base personality judgments on their knowledge of stereotypes concerning the relevant group.[7] However, these effects are much stronger for gender stereotypes than ethnic stereotypes, such that even when abundant information about the target is available, judges will base personality judgment on gender stereotypes but not ethnic stereotypes.[7]

Relationship to the target individual [8]

Judges who are acquainted with the target individual typically provide more accurate personality judgments, presumably due to their knowledge of the individual across different types of situations.[8]

Number of judges[8]

Although one judge may provide an accurate personality judgment, the average of multiple judgments from different individuals more strongly predicts behavior than judgments from one individual.[8]

Sex of the judge[6]

Females typically provide more accurate personality judgments than males.

 

 

[Jack Dawe]

12 minutes ago, spudski said:

An educated one ;-)

English/British football is the thicko of European/world football though, thick as sh1t, so those "itk" in this country might not want to get too ahead of itself and start bandying around terms like "educated." What would our esteemed scouting fraternity in this country have made of little Iniesta as a kid? We all know what they would've said!

[Jack Dawe]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

Sex of the judge[6]

Females typically provide more accurate personality judgments than males.

 

 

That's what we need! We need a "Karen Brady." 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

English/British football is the thicko of European/world football though, thick as sh1t, so those "itk" in this country might not want to get too ahead of itself and start bandying around terms like "educated." What would our esteemed scouting fraternity in this country have made of little Iniesta as a kid? We all know what they would've said!

'Educated' in the ways of Professional football...not in general.

I would put it to you, that it is certain English Managers that are 'uneducated' and are looking for certain types of players.

More often than not, a Scout is asked to look for a certain type of player that fits the managers requirements.

They often see gifted players that the manager isn't interested in.

Gifted players without 'closed requirements' are often found at youth level.

Plus as a Scout, you need to know how to communicate in the right terminology with the Head Scout and coaching staff.

I think you are way off when you say, we are 'the thicko' of World football.

We have some of the most gifted players playing in this country.

[joe jordans teeth]

6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

English/British football is the thicko of European/world football though, thick as sh1t, so those "itk" in this country might not want to get too ahead of itself and start bandying around terms like "educated." What would our esteemed scouting fraternity in this country have made of little Iniesta as a kid? We all know what they would've said!

Don't you know we have st Georges park now,because all will be fine now we are training coaches up to a certain standard ,if a little iniesta walked in now he would still be bombed out,it's not what they are looking for

[pongo88]

It's a good job behavioural profiling wasn't used when George Best, Stan Bowles etc were playing. Or the City promotion team from the 1970s! (I know times have changed, so don't say it)