HoldenBall Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Having a friendly debate with a mate about Pep Guardiola's worth as a manager. He thinks he's completely overrated, whilst I think he's one of, if not the best manager in recent history. He made the point that every single club he's managed, the best players in the world were given to him, even citing that the likes of Ian Dowie could work wih the players he's had and win copious amount of trophies. Whilst my point was Guardiola pretty much created a modern blueprint in whole football should be played, creating the tiki tika tactic. He was the figurehead of arguably the best club side ever in Barcelona 2009-2011. What do people think? Overrated or a genius? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodogs Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Genius. Ian Dowie is now a regional sales manager enough said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelts Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 He's great on Sky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North London Red Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Frank Rijkaard laid the foundations for Barcelona's 2009-11 success. Not taking anything away from Guardiola's trophy haul during that time but I'm not sure he can be credited with building that side. As for Bayern...I thought they were at their best during Heynckes' final season. Not sure they've got any better on Guardiola's watch. Clearly still a great team though, and Guardiola might yet deliver the Champions League this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob k Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 The Man City job will settle the debate for you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoldenBall Posted March 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 4 minutes ago, North London Red said: Frank Rijkaard laid the foundations for Barcelona's 2009-11 success. Not taking anything away from Guardiola's trophy haul during that time but I'm not sure he can be credited with building that side. As for Bayern...I thought they were at their best during Heynckes' final season. Not sure they've got any better on Guardiola's watch. Clearly still a great team though, and Guardiola might yet deliver the Champions League this season. Guardiola dismantled a lot of Rikjaards side, Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco. Bought in youngsters like Busquets and Pedro. You can even argue Messi went from beinga very good player under Rijkaard to world class under Guardiola. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North London Red Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Iron Man said: Guardiola dismantled a lot of Rikjaards side, Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco. Bought in youngsters like Busquets and Pedro. You can even argue Messi went from beinga very good player under Rijkaard to world class under Guardiola. Fair comments and perhaps I do him a disservice - although I'd argue that Messi was world class before Guardiola came along. Also, many of the spine of the great Barcelona team (Valdes, Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta) really came to prominence under Rijkaard. Not taking anything away from Guradiola as I say....winning 2 Champions Leagues in 3 seasons is no mean feat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 I would say the jury is 'reasonably' out. He may be a great, he may have been very fortunate to be handed 2 very big jobs at dominant teams in their own country. I think it too soon to call it definitively either way; not least considering Barca fans love him and Bayern fans are at best indifferent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 It was Johan Cruyff who started off the modern day Barcelona by setting the blue print with their Academy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shtanley Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Personally I find his style of play quite boring and tedious, his major flaw is his stubbornness in regards to his system. The 4-0 home loss to Real Madrid summed it up for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Perhaps if he went to some of England's eternal under-achievers, we might see how good he really is, Villa in the Prem, City in the Championship, Sheffield United in League One and Plymouth Argyle in League Two. All clubs with good fan bases, decent stadia, large cities with potential for big crowds. I reckon he'd be running home to Mummy, crying his eyes out within twelve months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 17 minutes ago, Shtanley said: Personally I find his style of play quite boring and tedious, his major flaw is his stubbornness in regards to his system. The 4-0 home loss to Real Madrid summed it up for me. Agree. Tiki-taki is a most dull form of football. Particularly the crap impersonation you see at Arsenal too. 700 passes does not mean you've had a good game!! It begs the question are you good enough in possession. Keeping it is one thing, using it well quite another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltshoveller Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Like any good manager Needs to be at good team All the so called great managers were at clubs with money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Rob k said: The Man City job will settle the debate for you!! Yup. Unlike his prior jobs, he'll need to basically revamp everything - he'll have the resources, but it is certainly the most difficult task he has had. I think Man City will make the Champions League (though not win it), which will make his task of getting the best players in the world to come easier. But part of me wants them to only make the Europa to see if he can develop the team without a place at the top table on offer - it would help answer the questions about whether he's a top coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One BCFC Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 Overrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howey_ducky Posted March 27, 2016 Report Share Posted March 27, 2016 I think one could argue that the idiot that is Pulis has done a better job in his career with the tools he's been given over the last 10 years than pep has. Time will tell, I doubt that Man City will win anything of substance with him in charge tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoldenBall Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, steviestevieneville said: It was Johan Cruyff who started off the modern day Barcelona by setting the blue print with their Academy True, most of Guardiola's ideas and footballing philosophy are just a slightly tweaked version of Cryuffs, he's admitted this himself.It's fair to say without Cryuff Barcelona would not be the world dominating power they are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoldenBall Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Shtanley said: Personally I find his style of play quite boring and tedious, his major flaw is his stubbornness in regards to his system. The 4-0 home loss to Real Madrid summed it up for me. Tiki Taka is great when it's fast paced, when it's slow and boring it becomes tedious. Btw when did Barcelona lose to Madrid 4-0 at the Nou Camp under Guardiola? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 28 minutes ago, Iron Man said: True, most of Guardiola's ideas and footballing philosophy are just a slightly tweaked version of Cryuffs, he's admitted this himself.It's fair to say without Cryuff Barcelona would not be the world dominating power they are today. It was Cruyff who found Pep playing in the youth team, even though he was regarded as the best technical player. When asked why he was playing in the youth team, the coach's replied the team would lose because he was so small.... Cruyff saw ability in all shapes and sizes...he changed football for the better imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Iron Man said: Having a friendly debate with a mate about Pep Guardiola's worth as a manager. He thinks he's completely overrated, whilst I think he's one of, if not the best manager in recent history. He made the point that every single club he's managed, the best players in the world were given to him, even citing that the likes of Ian Dowie could work wih the players he's had and win copious amount of trophies. Whilst my point was Guardiola pretty much created a modern blueprint in whole football should be played, creating the tiki tika tactic. He was the figurehead of arguably the best club side ever in Barcelona 2009-2011. What do people think? Overrated or a genius? Your mate needs his head reading... Stats as a manager... only lost 44 games from 435...that is a genius at work. 73% win rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoldenBall Posted March 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 51 minutes ago, spudski said: It was Cruyff who found Pep playing in the youth team, even though he was regarded as the best technical player. When asked why he was playing in the youth team, the coach's replied the team would lose because he was so small.... Cruyff saw ability in all shapes and sizes...he changed football for the better imo. Completely agree, I don't think it's an OTT statement saying that Cryuff is the most influential figures in football history, changed the thought process in how the game should be played, on the pitch and as a coach. Every bit of Cryuffs work has been used and implemented by other managers to great success. Ajax won the Champions league in 1995 using the formation Cryuff predominantly used at Barcelona, Cryuff believed that Goalkeepers should be utilised as another player on the pitch, look what Guardiola's done to Nueur. One of the first things Pep did as Bayern coach was put Lahm in the DM role, a role Pep played under Cryuff, Loachim Loew played Lahm as a DM in the world cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 5 hours ago, Maltshoveller said: Like any good manager Needs to be at good team All the so called great managers were at clubs with money Brian Clough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 1 hour ago, richwwtk said: Brian Clough? Alf Ramsey & Bobby Robson ( both Ipswich) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Gaurdiola was hugely influenced as a player by the late and great Johan Cruyff when a Barca player under him. The Dutch "total football" style was introduced by Cruyff at Barca and developed into the Tika-taka that has become a Barca trademark. Pep took Cruyffs blueprint and enhanced it. So...genius or just a bright guy? Just a bright guy in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cider-manc Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 In fairness lots of clubs have money and lots of successful clubs change management and find it difficult to sustain their success. Just ask Manchester United who twice had managers rated as one of the best of all time but struggled immediately after their departures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBristolian Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Guardiola is brilliant at the type of jobs he takes. Yes, he's had tools and resources at his disposal but plenty of managers struggle at top clubs with similar resources available and the likes of Benitez at Real, Scolari and Villas Boas at Chelsea, Moyes and LVG at Man Utd and Martino at Barcelona have all shown that it's not as simple as having the best players, sending them onto the pitch and winning things. Guardiola has consistently got excellent teams playing at their full potential and, in that sense, he isn't over-rated at all. At the same time, I do think football managers have different skill sets and, whilst we tend to laud the managers who are brilliant at winning trophies at top clubs, I don't necessarily think they're the best managers for all situations. Guardiola sets teams up to maximise their technical superiority over their opponents and I don't necessarily think Guardiola would excel at a lower league club or in a division where other teams are stronger than the one he's managing. (in contrast Moyes, who excels at setting teams up to minimise the difference in technical ability between his team and their opponents, found that a strength at Preston and Everton but a major weakness at Man Utd where that basically gave opponents a better chance of a win.) I think Guardiola'll do well at Man City because he can get the best players in and I think he's a brilliant manager who'll really add something to the Premier League next season but, whilst a great manager, he's also definitely someone who chooses the clubs that suit his abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chivs Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Guardiola's no Lee Johnson. That's all I'll say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 I shall sit on the fence and just say Overrated Genius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltshoveller Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 6 hours ago, richwwtk said: Brian Clough? Forest had Trevor Francis playing for them At the time the worlds most expensive player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted March 28, 2016 Report Share Posted March 28, 2016 Any other managers with difficult sir-names to spell? Uncle TFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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