Johnson's 3 Windows & The Loan System

[havanatopia]

BBC's article on Lee J's comments are intelligently playing down expectation but also suggesting there will be an attempt at fast tracking his squad and not to have to wait 3 windows; After all, he really cannot get away with saying that alone when we all know you can win a league title about one year after arrival as Rainieri has just emphatically proved and Cotterill has also done in similarly spectacular fashion.

But then we introduce the new loan system which ridiculously scews the system, again, in favour of the clubs with the bigger budget; FIFA may have rid itself of the cancer, arguable, but it still makes really stupid decisions.

I thought the new rule was only to ban 'emergency loans' the definition of which I only partially understand. Johnson says, in that same BBC article, that we cannot loan out Vyner next season suggesting its any loan... So what is correct... Emergency only or all loans?

Whichever it is this damages youth player development, costs clubs more money and brings another factor into play, as if one is needed,    that will decide if a club academy is viable.

It occurs to me that football governance at the highest level is once again going backwards.

Edited May 6, 2016 by havanatopia

[Robin1988]

15 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

BBC's article on Lee J's comments are intelligently playing down expectation but also suggesting there will be an attempt at fast tracking his squad and not to have to wait 3 windows; After all, he really cannot get away with saying that alone when we all know you can win a league title about one year after arrival as Rainieri has just emphatically proved and Cotterill has also done in similarly spectacular fashion.

Can't get away with saying it? You make it sound like we should expect it to be sooner. Leicester isn't the norm you know...

15 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Whichever it is this damages youth player development, costs clubs more money and brings another factor into play, as if one is needed,    that will decide if a club academy is viable.

 

Does it damage player development? We'll see. When teams have crises out of the transfer windows they will have a ready-made stockpile of young players to fit in which they will be more likely to turn to than if they could go into the loan market. Time will tell who it benefits.

[downendcity]

If it bans any loans, then there won;t be room to swing a cat at Chelsea's training ground next season.

[havanatopia]

17 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Can't get away with saying it? You make it sound like we should expect it to be sooner. Leicester isn't the norm you know...

Does it damage player development? We'll see. When teams have crises out of the transfer windows they will have a ready-made stockpile of young players to fit in which they will be more likely to turn to than if they could go into the loan market. Time will tell who it benefits.

I think Leicester could be a paradigm change; frankly its been coming. And no he has to temper his remark by saying 'we will try and fast track' not least because he will be considered lacking ambition if he hides behind 3 windows; rightly or wrongly.

Obviously 'we will see' but if a player cannot be loaned out i would have thought it is 'blindingly' obvious his development will more than likely be slowed and possibly even damaged.

[BS4 on Tour...]

Now this thread title is a great name for a Dr Feelgood tribute band....!

[spudski]

I hope fans are also realistic...regardless of our Stadium, dreams, hopes, future plans, new manager, new scouts, new recruitment people etc, etc...however good they are...however much we plan to be better...we are still little ol' Bristol City...Un proven in this division. We are a small fish in a huge pond and trying to compete with other clubs is still going to be hard.

Players like Tomlin and Baker may come here on loan, to get first team football...but trying to sign them full time onto a 3 year contract is a completely different ball game...and that is regardless of who the manager is and his recruitment team.

We are who we are...an unfashionable club with no real history of achievement.

It's going to be hard.

[havanatopia]

41 minutes ago, spudski said:

I hope fans are also realistic...regardless of our Stadium, dreams, hopes, future plans, new manager, new scouts, new recruitment people etc, etc...however good they are...however much we plan to be better...we are still little ol' Bristol City...Un proven in this division. We are a small fish in a huge pond and trying to compete with other clubs is still going to be hard.

Players like Tomlin and Baker may come here on loan, to get first team football...but trying to sign them full time onto a 3 year contract is a completely different ball game...and that is regardless of who the manager is and his recruitment team.

We are who we are...an unfashionable club with no real history of achievement.

It's going to be hard.

Clifton Suspension Bridge

Clevedon Pier

Brean Sands

Duhhhh

lolz

[Redandy]

38 minutes ago, spudski said:

I hope fans are also realistic...regardless of our Stadium, dreams, hopes, future plans, new manager, new scouts, new recruitment people etc, etc...however good they are...however much we plan to be better...we are still little ol' Bristol City...Un proven in this division. We are a small fish in a huge pond and trying to compete with other clubs is still going to be hard.

Players like Tomlin and Baker may come here on loan, to get first team football...but trying to sign them full time onto a 3 year contract is a completely different ball game...and that is regardless of who the manager is and his recruitment team.

We are who we are...an unfashionable club with no real history of achievement.

It's going to be hard.

I still do not think it is too much to ask to see a massive improvement in recruitment this summer in view of the shambles that took place last summer. Also I think we should not go on about us being a small fish. We need to start talking up the club and it's potential to attract the higher calibre players we need to progress.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Redandy said:

I still do not think it is too much to ask to see a massive improvement in recruitment this summer in view of the shambles that took place last summer. Also I think we should not go on about us being a small fish. We need to start talking up the club and it's potential to attract the higher calibre players we need to progress.

I agree their should be an improvement...it couldn't be any worse than last summer.

As for bigging up the club...SL and MA have done so in recent months and got shot down in flames for doing so.

Can't win it seems.

[Jack Dawe]

3 minutes ago, Redandy said:

I still do not think it is too much to ask to see a massive improvement in recruitment this summer in view of the shambles that took place last summer. Also I think we should not go on about us being a small fish. We need to start talking up the club and it's potential to attract the higher calibre players we need to progress.

I don't think there's much danger of Mark Ashton not talking this club up, but when spud says we are a small fish in this league he's referring to our record of underachievement at this level, as much as anything (I think), and how that influences top players thinking when choosing who to sign for. We are seen as perennial strugglers in this league, and the best players want to be at the clubs most likely to be chasing promotion. Keeping expectations in check makes sense. If we match or exceed them, wonderful, but we are in a highly competitive environment with many big guns. This ain't little ol' League One or Two!

[Chivs]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I hope fans are also realistic...regardless of our Stadium, dreams, hopes, future plans, new manager, new scouts, new recruitment people etc, etc...however good they are...however much we plan to be better...we are still little ol' Bristol City...Un proven in this division. We are a small fish in a huge pond and trying to compete with other clubs is still going to be hard.

Players like Tomlin and Baker may come here on loan, to get first team football...but trying to sign them full time onto a 3 year contract is a completely different ball game...and that is regardless of who the manager is and his recruitment team.

We are who we are...an unfashionable club with no real history of achievement.

It's going to be hard.

A bit like Leicester then...

I'm always amazed how people seem to think that "who we are", "our history" etc. has any bearing on players signing for us.

If we pay well, they will come.

Obviously, if we pay the same as Aston Villa, any sensible player would pick them.  But, I'll say again, if we pay well, they will come.  Over to Mr Lansdown (once again, after all his failures last summer).

[GrahamC]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I hope fans are also realistic...regardless of our Stadium, dreams, hopes, future plans, new manager, new scouts, new recruitment people etc, etc...however good they are...however much we plan to be better...we are still little ol' Bristol City...Un proven in this division. We are a small fish in a huge pond and trying to compete with other clubs is still going to be hard.

Players like Tomlin and Baker may come here on loan, to get first team football...but trying to sign them full time onto a 3 year contract is a completely different ball game...and that is regardless of who the manager is and his recruitment team.

We are who we are...an unfashionable club with no real history of achievement.

It's going to be hard.

Not sure I entirely agree with all of that.

Firstly you are right, we are not Villa, whoever comes down out of Newcastle or Sunderland (maybe both?) or one of the many clubs we play with parachute payments.

However we aren't Rotherham, Preston, last Saturday's opponents Huddersfield or whoever finishes second or wins the playoffs from League One, either.

This bit is boring (incremental progress is) but a sensible loosening of our wage structure, more signings like Kodjia, Flint and Pack and we then can start to look beyond our natural place in the scheme of things (which is about 14th) towards the top half.

It really wasn't all that long ago that we achieved Championship top ten finishes 3 years running under the current head coach's father, despite the Mark Ashton bluster that is our realistic medium term aim.

Edited May 6, 2016 by GrahamC

[ciderbeans]

Looking at it from a different perspective, I see it as a way of progressing youth through force. By not being able to loan players, it will be a case of either play them or sell them or make them rot. This would mean clubs like Chelsea may not stockpile as much and the football league may benefit from this. However, the league clubs would also be in the same position regarding their own players but not to such scale. 

Sometimes, force of habit needs to be enforced to make an improvement. It is all too easy to dip into the loan market rather than use a youth player desperate to make it in the game. The club trains them, should the situation arise, they should have the confidence to use them or inevitably lose them.

[Selred]

2 hours ago, Chivs said:

A bit like Leicester then...

I'm always amazed how people seem to think that "who we are", "our history" etc. has any bearing on players signing for us.

If we pay well, they will come.

Obviously, if we pay the same as Aston Villa, any sensible player would pick them.  But, I'll say again, if we pay well, they will come.  Over to Mr Lansdown (once again, after all his failures last summer).

I think any sensible player would pick us over Villa. That club is a shambles from top to bottom.

[Lanterne Rouge]

Are there to be no loans at all from now on then? As I understood it emergency loans were ending but it was still possible to loan players for either a full or half season provided the deals were done during the transfer windows.

[Davefevs]

I believe there are still 'standard' loans which are usually half or full season and are only allowed inside the normal transfer windows. Think Baker and Moore.

Emergency Loans, sometimes referred to as 'temporary' loans, are for periods of between 28-93 days and take place post the end of the summer window and a period (I'm not quite sure exactly) around the end of the winter window, but deadline is something like 3rd Thursday in March. Think Bennett or Matt Smith.

Section 53 for Loans

[Jack Dawe]

7 hours ago, Chivs said:

A bit like Leicester then...

I'm always amazed how people seem to think that "who we are", "our history" etc. has any bearing on players signing for us.

If we pay well, they will come.

Obviously, if we pay the same as Aston Villa, any sensible player would pick them.  But, I'll say again, if we pay well, they will come.  Over to Mr Lansdown (once again, after all his failures last summer).

Leicester have spent one of their 110 years of league football below this division. And 47 in the top division. They've reached the FA Cup final four times, all of them post war, and won the League Cup three times. They have competed in Europe on three occasions. They've had players like Gordon Banks, Gary Lineker. All this before we get on to this season. So I'd agree with you, we're a bit like Leicester, in that we play football and we're called City.

[Charliesboots]

Great name for a band..?

[downendcity]

7 hours ago, Selred said:

I think any sensible player would pick us over Villa. That club is a shambles from top to bottom.

.....a shambles, but with parachute payments and the ability to pay much higher wages than we can.

Sensible players might pick us over Villa, but it seems to me that most players will unfortunately look at the money before common sense.

[Stoke_Gifford_Red]

6 minutes ago, downendcity said:

.....a shambles, but with parachute payments and the ability to pay much higher wages than we can.

Sensible players might pick us over Villa, but it seems to me that most players will unfortunately look at the money before common sense.

The initial point that @Selredwas responding to however was if us and Villa paid the same amount most players would pick us which makes perfect sense.  Villa are a shambles off the pitch (plus arguably on it), appear to be in a downward spiral and will probably have a large, bloated squad so players are less likely to get a game.  

[BS4 on Tour...]

7 hours ago, Selred said:

I think any sensible player would pick us over Villa. That club is a shambles from top to bottom.

I really don't agree, if a player could sign for Aston Villa or Bristol City they'd be off to the Midlands...the only shambles is the way they've been relegated, they can still afford to pay wages that we can only dream about....

[Selred]

49 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I really don't agree, if a player could sign for Aston Villa or Bristol City they'd be off to the Midlands...the only shambles is the way they've been relegated, they can still afford to pay wages that we can only dream about....

 

1 hour ago, downendcity said:

.....a shambles, but with parachute payments and the ability to pay much higher wages than we can.

Sensible players might pick us over Villa, but it seems to me that most players will unfortunately look at the money before common sense.

As @Stoke Gifford Red rightly said, I was responding to the point which said "if we pay the same players would choose Villa". 

If we pay exactly the same wages, not saying we could though, then players would pick us. A club with a manager, stability as we aren't being sold, players who try and currently a feel good atmosphere. 

[CITYAREREDANDWHITE]

36 minutes ago, Selred said:

 

As @Stoke Gifford Red rightly said, I was responding to the point which said "if we pay the same players would choose Villa". 

If we pay exactly the same wages, not saying we could though, then players would pick us. A club with a manager, stability as we aren't being sold, players who try and currently a feel good atmosphere. 

Disagree, we can't compete with clubs like villa, no matter how much shit their in

[jambodinho]

Wow. People believe footballers would pick us over Aston villa if offered the same wages by both clubs? Villa will be back in the prem before we get anywhere near it. I'm Bristol city through and through but if I was a player and i had the choice of there or here, I'm going to villa. 

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, jambodinho said:

Wow. People believe footballers would pick us over Aston villa if offered the same wages by both clubs? Villa will be back in the prem before we get anywhere near it. I'm Bristol city through and through but if I was a player and i had the choice of there or here, I'm going to villa. 

I accept Villa are the bigger club, but they remain a club in turmoil. No manager, half a board, and an owner trying to sell. They have absolutely no direction at all and appear in permanent decline right now.

By contrast we now have a very stable set up; a wealthy and committed owner, a new stadium just finished, and we've had a strong finish to the season. Our overall league position has improved for three seasons in a row.

I don't think it is anywhere near certain that Villa will be back in the Premier League before us. Just look at Leeds; being a big club doesn't guarantee anything.

Edited May 7, 2016 by ChippenhamRed

[Selred]

7 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I accept Villa are the bigger club, but they remain a club in turmoil. No manager, half a board, and an owner trying to sell. They have absolutely no direction at all and appear in permanent decline right now.

By contrast we now have a very stable set up; a wealthy and committed owner, a new stadium just finished, and we've had a strong finish to the season. Our overall league position has improved for three seasons in a row.

I don't think it is anywhere near certain that Villa will be back in the Premier League before us. Just look at Leeds; being a big club doesn't guarantee anything.

Furthermore how many players will stay on from this season? Not many I expect.

A whole new squad makes it very tricky to progress.

[ChippenhamRed]

8 minutes ago, Selred said:

Furthermore how many players will stay on from this season? Not many I expect.

A whole new squad makes it very tricky to progress.

Indeed. Personally I would say Villa are as likely to go down again as they are to go back up next season; a mid table finish is therefore the most likely outcome.

[Port Said Red]

11 hours ago, downendcity said:

.....a shambles, but with parachute payments and the ability to pay much higher wages than we can.

Sensible players might pick us over Villa, but it seems to me that most players will unfortunately look at the money before common sense.

 

20 hours ago, Chivs said:

A bit like Leicester then...

I'm always amazed how people seem to think that "who we are", "our history" etc. has any bearing on players signing for us.

If we pay well, they will come.

Obviously, if we pay the same as Aston Villa, any sensible player would pick them.  But, I'll say again, if we pay well, they will come.  Over to Mr Lansdown (once again, after all his failures last summer).

Like Bolton then? 

[1960maaan]

Villa get £67m for abject failure this year. They get approaching £40m for the next 3 if they don't go up, also the owner want to sell so needs short term success or someone to realise their massive potential. We aren't shopping in the same stores really, but what I would say is the ones that come to us will WANT to play for us which can make a big difference . We need to build steadily and recruit right to avoid the balls us from before when SL chased the dream.

[havanatopia]

13 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

Leicester have spent one of their 110 years of league football below this division. And 47 in the top division. They've reached the FA Cup final four times, all of them post war, and won the League Cup three times. They have competed in Europe on three occasions. They've had players like Gordon Banks, Gary Lineker. All this before we get on to this season. So I'd agree with you, we're a bit like Leicester, in that we play football and we're called City.

Marvellously scripted. Now you mention their history it actually brings home what I and it seems many others seem to wrongly believe; that Leicester are less successful or have spent fewer seasons at the highest level than they have. Of course the most successful season in their history now coming to a close will forever change what I believe was a 'smallish' club type perception by many. Good on them. Hope for us all.

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I believe there are still 'standard' loans which are usually half or full season and are only allowed inside the normal transfer windows. Think Baker and Moore.

Emergency Loans, sometimes referred to as 'temporary' loans, are for periods of between 28-93 days and take place post the end of the summer window and a period (I'm not quite sure exactly) around the end of the winter window, but deadline is something like 3rd Thursday in March. Think Bennett or Matt Smith.

Section 53 for Loans

Cheers for that Dave. So Lee can send Vyner out for half or a full season. Someone needs to tell him or he has absolutely no intention of sending him away for so long or any other young-un come to that.