Time to reflect...

[spudski]

...and get real.

Whilst we are all disappointed with yesterdays performance, a bad day at the office all round, was anyone really expecting anymore from our general performances as a whole this season?

We had a cracking start, that got everyone's expectations up, and we've certainly tailed off.

However...no one is battering us, we have dominated certain games, and many points have been lost down to individual errors.

That's the difference between being 14th and 4 points off the play offs...and actually being in the play off places...just 4 points.

We've had one transfer window to work with...we've done massively well in just one year compared to this time last season.

I think we need to realise this...to get even this far in one year is a job well done.

This league is massively tough....in the one transfer window we've had, how would anyone expect any manager to come in and turn us into a high flying top 4 team?

You have to look at this league and see it for what it is. Other teams are having poor patch's with far more experience and money behind them. Norwich for example.

I look at teams below us with far more experience and finance...Forest, QPR, Wolves, Ipswich, Cardiff etc.

Teams like Villa sat next to us. Derby just 2 points.

Whilst we all want to do well and better....we need to be realistic.

This league is one game at a time...win yesterday, we would have been sitting 8th and everyone would have been purring.

It is that close in this league...one win difference between being average or top 8.

On a side note...LJ and his team know exactly where we need to strengthen...Lets hope the right players are available in coming transfer windows.

Just enjoy the ride, of it's ups and downs...be realistic and see we are a team in transformation, and doing better than we have for many, many years.

[Fordy62]

How funny that a lot of what you wrote could equally be applicable to this time last season. 

(Clearly barring the excellent start!)

[LondonBristolian]

3 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

How funny that a lot of what you wrote could equally be applicable to this time last season. 

Not really.  We didn't have a cracking start, we conceded 4 in several matches, we were a long way from 4 points off the play-offs.  It wasn't clear that we had a manager who knew where we needed to strengthen, we weren't really a team in transformation and we were playing the same team week in week out with no clear sign of how it would get better and a real risk of relegation.

I'm not seeing the parallel at all and would be baffled by anyone who thought the club hadn't progressed massively over the past year.

[spudski]

3 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

How funny that a lot of what you wrote could equally be applicable to this time last season. 

(Clearly barring the excellent start!)

We are far removed from this time last season fella...we are progressing throughout the club. We were in turmoil this time last season in all departments. A healthy club is one that can grow...we were festering with no direction before...no one working together, people in fear, people hiding in their jobs...it was a real mess.

[Robbored]

Well said  Spudski. Some realistic common sense at last. 

Taking the wider and long term view is a rarity here on otib.

 

[Curr Avon]

14 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

How funny that a lot of what you wrote could equally be applicable to this time last season. 

(Clearly barring the excellent start!)

We played Huddersfield away in our 20th match last season, won 2-1, but sat in 19th position with just 19 points and 4 wins. It was Cotterill's final victory. He was sacked 6 winless games later.

[Fordy62]

I should clarify that I don't doubt we're in a better position now...

But back then we were playing some good football, we were dominating some established teams without winning (exceedingly bad luck). At time we got hammered, yes, but I think as much as it was about Cotts, it was also about the situation opening the eyes of SL & co about the financial constraints needing to be lifted to be able to compete in this league. Cotts wasn't afforded the same budget. I'm not saying he wasn't stubborn and at times petulant, he was. But the goalposts did change. 

That being said, the overriding sentiment of your post is absolutely valid. We're now in a much better place. And we wouldn't be football fans if we didn't all expect our team to get promoted every year! Especially after that start!

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

8 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I should clarify that I don't doubt we're in a better position now...

But back then we were playing some good football, we were dominating some established teams without winning (exceedingly bad luck). At time we got hammered, yes, but I think as much as it was about Cotts, it was also about the situation opening the eyes of SL & co about the financial constraints needing to be lifted to be able to compete in this league. Cotts wasn't afforded the same budget. I'm not saying he wasn't stubborn and at times petulant, he was. But the goalposts did change. 

That being said, the overriding sentiment of your post is absolutely valid. We're now in a much better place. And we wouldn't be football fans if we didn't all expect our team to get promoted every year! Especially after that start!

I would say that was only upto the Cardiff away game, after that it became pure garbage. Thing is once he was binned off ( a month overdue IMO) we actually started to progress and had a good record under first Pembo and then LJ. It was with a couple of very good additions pretty much the same core of players that SC had worked with.

 

[1bristolcity]

I am real, however the wasted opportunities we have had , in not playing to out strengths, getting quick balls into the box for Tammy to gobble up is frustrating. We have been beaten bu the odd goal in bar one match, it could have been a whole lot better. Yesterday we looked disjointed again, and no real plan or shape, that is a concern, I am worried that Lee is a bit short on (no pun) on how to set us up, we do have pace to burn in the squad, but persists in lump ball.

 

[oldstandrobin]

24 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

I certainly agree with Spudski on this. My only let down this season has been the lack of impact on the first team of O'Dowda, Paterson. Brownhill, Engval , Ekstrand and Mathews. The core of the team is still the L1 team. We may have found the standard has got higher or that the physicality of the top teams more than anticipated but that is far too many players not making progress. I am sure LJ and MA are onto that, and will have seen that the two youngsters that have come through are Tammy and Mags , both from top clubs, so we may have to reposition the target source. Also agree that (sadly) many targets will come from overseas in future. Better quality and value. 

Of course you never get signings perfect, but with Wilbs and Tammy not around next year, we have a serious need to make some inspired forward signings or we risk a tough time next season. I do not expect much in January, not a great month for signing players. Next summer will be interesting, where I think we will see a lot of comings and goings, and do not preclude players from last summer window leaving too. But I do not doubt LJ and MA understand this and that is why we need stability and to build slowly and progressively. I personally do not see City  strong in the top 6 for another 3 seasons. Just to be an established Championship side for me is huge progress. 

Want to look at a basket case or two look at Coventry or Charlton. 

I watched the Preston vs Blackburn game on tv yesterday, it was quite awful though, and the Championship really seems to me devoid of much technical excellence, lots of huff and puff and physical challenges . Be great if we could survive with a better brand of football than that. 

Agree with this Billy, perhaps why teams like Arsenal do so well, just look at their squad and look at the number of 'foreigners' playing, sad to say but we are most unlikely as a club to sign anyone in the England squad ( now there's another story !!) and we must look further afield, Kodjia was a prime example even though we sold him at a lovely profit they are out there plying their trade worldwide.

[brizzlelou]

1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

How funny that a lot of what you wrote could equally be applicable to this time last season. 

(Clearly barring the excellent start!)

How so exactly?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

...and get real.

Whilst we are all disappointed with yesterdays performance, a bad day at the office all round, was anyone really expecting anymore from our general performances as a whole this season?

We had a cracking start, that got everyone's expectations up, and we've certainly tailed off.

However...no one is battering us, we have dominated certain games, and many points have been lost down to individual errors.

That's the difference between being 14th and 4 points off the play offs...and actually being in the play off places...just 4 points.

We've had one transfer window to work with...we've done massively well in just one year compared to this time last season.

I think we need to realise this...to get even this far in one year is a job well done.

This league is massively tough....in the one transfer window we've had, how would anyone expect any manager to come in and turn us into a high flying top 4 team?

You have to look at this league and see it for what it is. Other teams are having poor patch's with far more experience and money behind them. Norwich for example.

I look at teams below us with far more experience and finance...Forest, QPR, Wolves, Ipswich, Cardiff etc.

Teams like Villa sat next to us. Derby just 2 points.

Whilst we all want to do well and better....we need to be realistic.

This league is one game at a time...win yesterday, we would have been sitting 8th and everyone would have been purring.

It is that close in this league...one win difference between being average or top 8.

On a side note...LJ and his team know exactly where we need to strengthen...Lets hope the right players are available in coming transfer windows.

Just enjoy the ride, of it's ups and downs...be realistic and see we are a team in transformation, and doing better than we have for many, many years.

I agree with much of what you say but sadly some of our woes from yesterday are easily remedied and incredibly glaringly obvious, for instance why on earth is Pack allowed to take free kicks? (I won't go into the in's and out's of is he even worth a starting place) yesterday every single one of his free kicks never ended close to a red shirt and 2 in a 10 minute period hit a Huddersfield player barely 10 yards away, our final ball is appalling, Freeman at the moment is getting into good positions but his crossing is woeful, even Reid got into several good positions but the crosses were over hit.

Tomlin should have been replaced at half time it was clear that this was never going to a game for him, a game where we needed all hands to the pump in midfield where we were being overrun and part of that was due to the amount of space that we surrendered in the middle third of the field, their midfield were virtually unmolested in that area all afternoon. He is incredibly gifted but sometimes it's just not going to be his day and yesterday was one of those days, I hope he isn't going to become immovable whatever happens.

Bryan should be our starting left back, after glowing references from LJ about his prowess as a left back, I find it strange that the very average Golbourne played yesterday, Smith is so badly out of sorts at the moment it reminds me of Marvin Elliott's 2nd season with us, I think it was more of a game for Reid yesterday.

I was struggling to work out exactly what our shape and tactics were yesterday, it just looked a mess of 11 players chasing shadows from the first whistle.

O'dowda and Patterson have been disappointing, Brownhill hasn't had much of a chance and I am getting frustrated to understand the Engvall signing and his lack of use even from the bench.

And finally IMO Huddersfield were not all that good, they just showed far more application and desire than we did on the day and especially in midfield where most games are won or lost, but even saying of that again IMO it is game that without the their 2nd goal balls up we could easily have taken an unwarranted point from the game.

[Cowshed]

"We had a cracking start, that got everyone's expectations up, and we've certainly tailed off."

No my expectations are different. I want to see players playing to, or close to the best of their ability in a consistent team shape. I then make a decision if I want to watch what is on offer, or not which is not defined by a cracking start and win, lose, draw.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

1 hour ago, billywedlock said:

I certainly agree with Spudski on this. My only let down this season has been the lack of impact on the first team of O'Dowda, Paterson. Brownhill, Engval , Ekstrand and Mathews.

 Excellent post above.

We shouldn't ask too much of O'Dowda, Brownhill and Engval, who have to have been bought to develop for the future.  Paterson has been excellent in patches.  Matthews seems to be getting fit at last, while Exstrand was always a gamble.

We're going through a tough patch, but we are light years ahead of where we were at the stage last season, and I'm loving it.  Lee needs two or three years to build a side which will challenge for promotion and I believe that he will.  In the meantime relax, enjoy the journey and look forward to even better days ahead.

[BCFC Grim]

Forest, QPR, Ipswich and Cardiff more finance? None of them have a penny to wipe their ass with have they.

For the money we have spent I would have expected better. We just don't seem to have a plan, a 'way' of playing. Playing with two defensive midfielders doesn't help. I actually think this league is bang average bar Newcastle and Brighton. And I think the fact we have been in games when not playing very well shows this.

Hopefully we can keep grinding results out at home, because at the moment that's the only thing keeping us from being in a relegation fight.

I keep hearing people saying well what an improvement from last season, well I should hope so after what's been spent. What's the point in having Engvall on the bench if you are not going to play him when trailing? We must have one of the slowest squads, yet O'dowda ( another big money signing) doesn't get a look in.

Just frustrating times.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

41 minutes ago, BCFC Grim said:

Forest, QPR, Ipswich and Cardiff more finance? None of them have a penny to wipe their ass with have they.

For the money we have spent I would have expected better. We just don't seem to have a plan, a 'way' of playing. Playing with two defensive midfielders doesn't help. I actually think this league is bang average bar Newcastle and Brighton. And I think the fact we have been in games when not playing very well shows this.

Hopefully we can keep grinding results out at home, because at the moment that's the only thing keeping us from being in a relegation fight.

I keep hearing people saying well what an improvement from last season, well I should hope so after what's been spent. What's the point in having Engvall on the bench if you are not going to play him when trailing? We must have one of the slowest squads, yet O'dowda ( another big money signing) doesn't get a look in.

Just frustrating times.

The highlighted portion is very true and was a little misleading from the OP.

But the rest of his post is spot on, although as I said in my reply to him, some of our woes are glaringly obvious and some very easy to remedy.

My overall thought is that for the first time in quite a while (certainly since the last promotion), my glass is half full, but I would like some of easy remedies put into place.

[Malago]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

"We had a cracking start, that got everyone's expectations up, and we've certainly tailed off."

No my expectations are different. I want to see players playing to, or close to the best of their ability in a consistent team shape. I then make a decision if I want to watch what is on offer, or not which is not defined by a cracking start and win, lose, draw.

Sorry, you're expectations are unrealistic.

Firstly, all human being regardless of their sphere of activity are subject to variations in their well being and ability to perform.  Within the world of football, between the thousands of professional footballers there are on  the planet, only a few dozen, perform at, or close to their level of ability, most of the time.  Even then they are subject to dips in form.  Even Messi has is off periods.

Secondly, to play in a consistent shape means that the other teams in the league will soon find us out and nullify any advantage this consistency may bring.

Brian Tinnion put it very well in his recent interview with 20p that the future of football is to train players to be comfortable in any position and in any formation.

[grifty]

2 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I agree with much of what you say but sadly some of our woes from yesterday are easily remedied and incredibly glaringly obvious, for instance why on earth is Pack allowed to take free kicks? (I won't go into the in's and out's of is he even worth a starting place) yesterday every single one of his free kicks never ended close to a red shirt and 2 in a 10 minute period hit a Huddersfield player barely 10 yards away, Apart from the one we scored from you mean? our final ball is appalling, Freeman at the moment is getting into good positions but his crossing is woeful, even Reid got into several good positions but the crosses were over hit.

Tomlin should have been replaced at half time it was clear that this was never going to a game for him, A game against a team in poor form? Exactly the game he should be played in. Its not his fault he was played as a left winger... a game where we needed all hands to the pump in midfield where we were being overrun and part of that was due to the amount of space that we surrendered in the middle third of the field, their midfield were virtually unmolested in that area all afternoon. He is incredibly gifted but sometimes it's just not going to be his day and yesterday was one of those days, I hope he isn't going to become immovable whatever happens.

Bryan should be our starting left back, after glowing references from LJ about his prowess as a left back, I find it strange that the very average Golbourne played yesterday, Bryan has been distinctly average at left back. Also, Ipswich was with 4 at the back and clean sheet kept. Makes sense to keep it as it is. Smith is so badly out of sorts at the moment it reminds me of Marvin Elliott's 2nd season with us, I think it was more of a game for Reid yesterday. I agree with this, Smith needs more sub appearances before being started. He has been out for a long time.

I was struggling to work out exactly what our shape and tactics were yesterday, it just looked a mess of 11 players chasing shadows from the first whistle.

O'dowda and Patterson have been disappointing, Brownhill hasn't had much of a chance and I am getting frustrated to understand the Engvall signing and his lack of use even from the bench.

And finally IMO Huddersfield were not all that good, they just showed far more application and desire than we did on the day and especially in midfield where most games are won or lost, but even saying of that again IMO it is game that without the their 2nd goal balls up we could easily have taken an unwarranted point from the game.

 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 minutes ago, grifty said:

 

1). Are you suggesting that he is a consistently good free kick taker?, because yesterday he was awful, how can you hit a player barely 10 yards away twice with a free kick?.

2). My point was made earlier, he should have been replaced at half time and your point about playing left wing actually illustrates my point that many of our deficiencies can be remedied easily.

3). Golbourne looked incredibly poor yesterday only eclipsed by Pack's display.

 

[Slippin cider]

I'd bring in performance related pay ....they'd soon up their game then!!

[Shtanley]

As much as I agree that there are way too many pessimists on here and many people do need to get real with their expectations. Your ideology of "enjoy the ride" is one that does annoy me slightly, why shouldn't we question why we aren't playing as well as we were at the beginning, why can't I question why we have a multi million pound signing who's a constant youth international for Sweden who is barely playing for us.

I think that although the way many people on here "ask questions" is wrong and often unnecessarily divisive but as a collective of fans we should be constantly examining the team and their performance not just simply enjoying the ride.

[JoeAman08]

I struggle with this topic. I agree with lots in the original post and I agree with many of the comments that play devils advocate to them. We are much better than last season, we aren't getting battered and we have a good squad full of youth and experience. Then the negative of we've spent almost as much as anyone that didn't come down from the premier league, we still have some of the same issues with some players and some of the same mistakes are being made. 

To be honest I expected top 12. We are fourteenth but only 4 points from playoffs. I think everyone needs to get a place in the table out of their heads. We had 52 points last season and many of those were won with loan players. We are on pace for 62 at the moment(over the season not current form). So if we can stay at that pace then it is progress considering the squad is 98% ours. January last season we got better and hopefully a new face or 2 can make a similar impact. Hopefully, we can finish with 65 or so points which we can do and was basically impossible to do this time last year. 

Anyway, think everyone needs to realise that everyone has a point. We are progressing and everyone should keep that in mind. Though we should also realise we haven't cleaned up all of last years messes yet. Some players have still failed to step up completely(consistent championship players) and we still let it too many soft goals. So realise the positives but also embrace those frustrated with the way we drop points. We are better but expect better as well. 

 

[Frenchay Red]

Get real? Ok, let's get real. Our form is only taking us in one direction. We have spent quite a lot on players who can't get in the team. We seem to lack any consistent style or method in our play. We are often out played and having to chase the game in an effort to turn it round and if things don't improve soon then we'll get dragged into a relegation fight.

Sit back and enjoy the ride?

I always do when travelling to away games. Unfortunately these days I don't very often enjoy the ride home.

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

26 minutes ago, Frenchay Red said:

Get real? Ok, let's get real. Our form is only taking us in one direction. We have spent quite a lot on players who can't get in the team. We seem to lack any consistent style or method in our play. We are often out played and having to chase the game in an effort to turn it round and if things don't improve soon then we'll get dragged into a relegation fight.

Sit back and enjoy the ride?

I always do when travelling to away games. Unfortunately these days I don't very often enjoy the ride home.

Are we? I'd say we tend to outplay the majority of teams we play but its usually some defensive mishap/howler that costs us the game... Birmingham and Reading are a testament to that.

We've just played 4 difficult sides (excluding Ipswich) Brum, Reading and Huddersfield are either in or floating around the playoffs and Brighton are a lock for a top 2 finish, we simply have to get results against the clubs like Brentford, Preston, Wolves, Forest and so on...

I guess you must've been seriously depressed coming home in the first half of last season, we were seriously garbage.

[BCFC Grim]

Outplayed Reading? I shouldn't of thought. They let us have the ball second half and we didn't actually create much.

[ChippenhamRed]

5 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

 Excellent post above.

We shouldn't ask too much of O'Dowda, Brownhill and Engval, who have to have been bought to develop for the future.  Paterson has been excellent in patches.  Matthews seems to be getting fit at last, while Exstrand was always a gamble.

We're going through a tough patch, but we are light years ahead of where we were at the stage last season, and I'm loving it.  Lee needs two or three years to build a side which will challenge for promotion and I believe that he will.  In the meantime relax, enjoy the journey and look forward to even better days ahead.

Agree with everything you say here except one bit. I'm getting a bit tired of hearing from various people on here that Engvall was bought "for the future". Though acknowledging he is young and will improve, when he signed he wasn't presented as a future prospect, he was introduced as a Swedish international and this quote:

“This is another big transfer for us and it’s taken a lot of hard work from a lot of people.

 

“He’s a Swedish international who has excellent finishing ability. I’m sure he will adjust quickly to the pace and tempo of the Sky Bet Championship and when he does he’ll be really dangerous.”

 

http://mobile.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/city-secure-engvall-transfer-3281091.aspx

 

That's not "future prospect" talk. That's how you talk about a player you expect to make a significant contribution to the season.

 

Although I'm in full agreement that we are an improving side, and I am with Spudski's OP all the way, in Engvall's case I think we are making too many excuses.

[GrahamC]

We are a very, very poor side away from home though..

Just 8 points from 11 games and only 1 in our last 6 away, I expect some will say this is because we have been "unlucky" but apparently that excuse didn't wash last year.

This time last season we had already managed 10, despite much less expenditure and seemingly less cohesion between the owner and manager.

A completely different story at home, of course, which side we end up being more of will decide where this season ends.

[Major Isewater]

8 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

We are a very, very poor side away from home though..

Just 8 points from 11 games and only 1 in our last 6 away, I expect some will say this is because we have been "unlucky" but apparently that excuse didn't wash last year.

This time last season we had already managed 10, despite much less expenditure and seemingly less cohesion between the owner and manager.

A completely different story at home, of course, which side we end up being more of will decide where this season ends.

It's difficult for every visiting side . Even the clubs who visit us .

[Phileas Fogg]

16 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Agree with everything you say here except one bit. I'm getting a bit tired of hearing from various people on here that Engvall was bought "for the future". Though acknowledging he is young and will improve, when he signed he wasn't presented as a future prospect, he was introduced as a Swedish international and this quote:

“This is another big transfer for us and it’s taken a lot of hard work from a lot of people.

 

“He’s a Swedish international who has excellent finishing ability. I’m sure he will adjust quickly to the pace and tempo of the Sky Bet Championship and when he does he’ll be really dangerous.”

 

http://mobile.bcfc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/city-secure-engvall-transfer-3281091.aspx

 

That's not "future prospect" talk. That's how you talk about a player you expect to make a significant contribution to the season.

 

Although I'm in full agreement that we are an improving side, and I am with Spudski's OP all the way, in Engvall's case I think we are making too many excuses.

I have a feeling that big talk was partly because we knew we weren't going to replace Kodjia and this was an attempt to appease fans. If so, and he's not ready to play much yet, it's a big error of judgement. 

If this is the case it is placed big expectations on someone who isn't ready/good enough and given the fans a nice big stick to beat the management with free of charge.

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I have a feeling that big talk was partly because we knew we weren't going to replace Kodjia and this was an attempt to appease fans. If so, and he's not ready to play much yet, it's a big error of judgement. 

If this is the case it is placed big expectations on someone who isn't ready/good enough and given the fans a nice big stick to beat the management with free of charge.

I think you`ve hit the nail on the head there. There was so much uproar about Kodjia going that the club felt they had to try and placate the natives and this was pretty much all that they could do.