Most obvious flaw?

[chinapig]

7 hours ago, spudski said:

I agree...our back four play very narrow. If we are to play that way, we have to have cover from our midfield. The areas that teams are exploiting I've outlined in black. The area wide of the 18 yard box is where teams are destroying us. On many occasions opposition players are going wide into that area, and getting in crosses...as you point out...so many crosses are coming in unchallenged. If Matthews or Bryan get drawn out...a hole develops where they were covering. None of the midfield do their defensive duties well enough. If we play with a narrow back four, then whoever is playing wide midfield needs to drop and defend against crosses coming in. This is generally either Tomlin, Freeman or Reid not tracking back. It's so easy to exploit us, when our midfield don't drop back properly, especially in the traditional Fullback positions.

This imo, is why we are losing games. We still create the most chances in this league... because of a very offensive midfield that doesn't defend and allows to much pressure onto our defenders, especially our fullbacks.

I've blamed Bryan and Matthews many times, but with a bit of hindsight, it's easy to see it's not just their frailties, but the lack of support they get that's the problem.

 

Interesting point. It's not so much about formations as players doing their jobs. Brighton play 4-4-2 for instance but are very strong defensively. We seem to have a few players who aren't keen on putting in the work. Sproule and McIndoe for instance used to work hard supporting the full backs or tucking in when the opposition had the ball. Not something you are likely to get a lot of from Tomlin and Freeman.

LJ is not going to deliver the high tempo pressing game he once talked about with either the central or wide midfield options he has now. Adding some power and energy there would be my priority.

[Star of a gunner]

On 27 December 2016 at 03:24, marmite said:

What does everyone think is the one most important area we need to improve on at the moment? For me its getting our full backs to stay wide with the opposing wingers and not give them so much time and space when they receive the ball. The number off crosses we let get played into our area really pees me off. We are constantly trying to defend crosses whilst back peddling in the penalty area. Get tight with the winger and be there when he gets the ball not 5 seconds later!!

the manager

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, southvillekiddy said:

The list is long.

One has to ask what are coaching staff are doing. Do they know how to improve our players? Players come to City and seem to stand still in terms of the quality of play. SL told me at a Q and A that you cannot improve a player once they are 25. If that sort of view is common at our Club it's no wonder we cannot attract better and better quality.

Chances turned into goals is a biggie, with Bobby especially looking like he couldn't hit a proverbial.

The Club sports psychologist - what is going on? If football is about team confidence with a squad that are not brilliant players to a man then I'd strongly urge the Psychologist to work the players on not conceding in the first 10 minutes, which we do almost every game at present.

Set pieces - we've got one of the tallest CBs in the League but we concede from headers at corners??? No ****er jumped for us for the Wolves' goal from the corner on 3 minutes.

Pressing - if you are not the most brilliant player in the world at least you can run like **** at someone who is just about to cross a ball into our box. Joe Bryan - 'go on son I'll give you lots of space so you can pick your spot for the equalising goal"

The one consolation for me was Tomlins' superb pass to Tammy who took on 2 defenders and beat the goalie magnificently.

Conceding early conceding late. The story of watching City for 5 decades. There must be some **** who can stop our Club being like this AAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I'm afraid it's almost always been a cozy club to play for and that doesn't seem to be changing.  Lots of big talk but players soon sense it is a quiet backwater with low expectations and respond accordingly.

 

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Interesting point. It's not so much about formations as players doing their jobs. Brighton play 4-4-2 for instance but are very strong defensively. We seem to have a few players who aren't keen on putting in the work. Sproule and McIndoe for instance used to work hard supporting the full backs or tucking in when the opposition had the ball. Not something you are likely to get a lot of from Tomlin and Freeman.

LJ is not going to deliver the high tempo pressing game he once talked about with either the central or wide midfield options he has now. Adding some power and energy there would be my priority.

An improvement could be keeping Tomlin central, accepting he won't be attempting to be a first defender and always having energy left hand side. Tomlin and high tempo pressing on the left wing (ish) ...That it is silly!!

As others have commented " Ashley Cole in his prime could not have covered the space left hand side v Wolves!" Space created for the opposition by Tomlin.

That would create more realistic defensive lines, a defence tucking in and a midfield leaving less space in front of them. 

 

 

[basshead]

Totally  agree with marmite reading away .there wingers which are there  main source of  threat were given  to much time to receive the ball  control it and do what they liked

[REBS14]

Our wide players running with ball and then stopping on half way line, checking back and passing - Why ?????

can you imagine Albert in our side now? " Right then Alby, we will get the ball to you, run like f---k down the wing and then stop, look around and pass sidewards or back."

Its something we have picked up and discussed between us, why does LJ tell them to do it ? 

[Davefevs]

Not gonna blame individuals but had at least one out of the number of our wide men had a better than average season it would make a huge difference.

No-one out of Freeman, O'Dowda, Paterson, Bryan have staked a claim for either position.  Freeman, for me, has been the best overall, Paterson, just glimpses.

But for me we need the closest player we can find to Reading's Danny Williams, a destructive midfielder, with an edge.  Korey, a firing, fully fit Korey would make a difference, but we need a hard-man or one of those players that all the opposition fans dislike.  Anyone got any realistic alternatives.

[Chappers]

Take the chances we are creating, stop gifting stupid goals, get the breaks for a game or two and let the confidence return.

 

[Jack Dawe]

21 hours ago, spudski said:

The areas that teams are exploiting I've outlined in black. 

 

 

So teams are exploiting us by attacking us anywhere around the edge of our penalty area, you say spud? We can only hope that LJ himself has access to such insight. Please keep educating we on here who do not "know the game" with more of your revelations like the above.

Happy New Year!

[Aaron-Bcfc]

On 27 December 2016 at 11:49, old_eastender said:

Says it all really, we started with 2 up front at Barnsley and at home to Ipswich, our only points gained in the last 10 games.

We were poor at Barnsley. We went 2 up front at Huddersfield as well and got completely overran in midfield.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Jack Dawe said:

So teams are exploiting us by attacking us anywhere around the edge of our penalty area, you say spud? We can only hope that LJ himself has access to such insight. Please keep educating we on here who do not "know the game" with more of your revelations like the above.

Happy New Year!

Obviously lost on you JD... thought it would go over a few heads...wooooosh...never mind, try keeping up haha , hopefully 2017 will be a better year for you...don't worry about LJ, just worry about yourself and understanding footy eh  Happy New Year to you too ;-)

11 hours ago, REBS14 said:

Our wide players running with ball and then stopping on half way line, checking back and passing - Why ?????

can you imagine Albert in our side now? " Right then Alby, we will get the ball to you, run like f---k down the wing and then stop, look around and pass sidewards or back."

Its something we have picked up and discussed between us, why does LJ tell them to do it ? 

Because they often have no one to pass to....they check back to keep possession and build again, waiting for our midfielders to make themselves available for a pass. Losing possession, with players high up the pitch more often than not leads to quick counter attacks and goals against.

Albert would more often run into two players and lose possession, than make a killer pass....we often lost possession after Albert made his mazy run that got people excited.

[Major Isewater]

21 hours ago, BigTone said:

You've cracked it Spud old chap. Let's get the Groundsman to paint black,  blue and red lines on the pitch and watch us fly up the league !!

Quick question though. Why are there only 10 blue lines ?

It's the Police .

[Major Isewater]

11 hours ago, Chappers said:

Take the chances we are creating, stop gifting stupid goals, get the breaks for a game or two and let the confidence return.

 

Simples .

[Olé]

5 hours ago, spudski said:

Because they often have no one to pass to....they check back to keep possession and build again, waiting for our midfielders to make themselves available for a pass. Losing possession, with players high up the pitch more often than not leads to quick counter attacks and goals against.

@spudski given your knowledge I'd love to go into a bit more detail on this. I've said exactly the same on here repeatedly this past month but with one major difference. I don't see this happening high up the pitch - if only we were actually establishing some serious attacking possession to then give the ball away!

To me it is something more criminal where we slow it down in the middle third, can't find a pass (unless we punt to Tammy) turn back on ourselves and ponder, and give it away around the halfway line. The outcome is the same - they get in on our defence - but not through any attacking over committal on our part.

It's as if we suffer the frailties of being an attacking team, without actually doing any serious attacking - i.e. worst of both worlds. This seems like a ridiculous situation to be in (one of the reasons why I've been so exasperated by LJ's persistence with this) so I'd love your take on tactically what is happening?

 

I think it goes something like this (players chosen simply as examples) - Pack gets ball on halfway line. Tammy is marked out by both centre backs. Attacking 3 (i.e. Freeman, Tomlin, Reid) marked by opposition midfield, at best get a ball into Freeman, who runs his marker a bit, gets stuck, gives ball back to Pack.

When we eventually squander it in midfield, the opposition full backs have not been occupied given how deep we sit behind Tammy, and are the immediate outlet ball to break on our back four, which translates to at least one wide player AND their two strikers, already in behind our midfield and in on our back four. 

Just breaking it down like that, my own interpretation would be the fault lies with our full backs who are not getting forward over the halfway line to provide an outlet when we are in possession (chimes with what I have been seeing), nor cancelling out the opposition full backs when we can't get the ball to anyone? 

 

However, as a matter of curiosity I just went and scanned through the 90 minutes Fulham FC posted of our 4-0 win. While it's true our full backs did get over halfway more to mop up loose balls to keep attacking possession going, the really obvious difference is how high a line our attacking midfield was playing.

When Pack got the ball or a ball is played upfield by Fielding or the defence, all 4 of our attacking midfielders (in that case Tomlin, Reid, Paterson, Freeman) are in the opposition half, and often at least two of them close to or overlapping Abraham. To my eye that simply isn't happening in our formation anymore.

In recent games Tammy has been isolated as much as a third of the pitch from teammates, and our attacking midfield is at most only three players, none of whom are beyond the halfway line as a matter of course, and each of whom end up relying on solo runs (not short passing) given distance between them all.

Fulham on reflection looked more like 4-1-4-1 that became 4-3-3 in possession. Recent formation (notwithstanding relentless personnel change) looks a more conventional 4-5-1 lined up 4-2-3-1 but where we never seem to develop an actual 3 man attack in possession. The difference compared to Fulham is stark.

[Gert Mare]

Start with the basics. Keep the ball at the other end of the pitch and then try and nick a winner.

[spudski]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

@spudski given your knowledge I'd love to go into a bit more detail on this. I've said exactly the same on here repeatedly this past month but with one major difference. I don't see this happening high up the pitch - if only we were actually establishing some serious attacking possession to then give the ball away!

To me it is something more criminal where we slow it down in the middle third, can't find a pass (unless we punt to Tammy) turn back on ourselves and ponder, and give it away around the halfway line. The outcome is the same - they get in on our defence - but not through any attacking over committal on our part.

It's as if we suffer the frailties of being an attacking team, without actually doing any serious attacking - i.e. worst of both worlds. This seems like a ridiculous situation to be in (one of the reasons why I've been so exasperated by LJ's persistence with this) so I'd love your take on tactically what is happening?

 

I think it goes something like this (players chosen simply as examples) - Pack gets ball on halfway line. Tammy is marked out by both centre backs. Attacking 3 (i.e. Freeman, Tomlin, Reid) marked by opposition midfield, at best get a ball into Freeman, who runs his marker a bit, gets stuck, gives ball back to Pack.

When we eventually squander it in midfield, the opposition full backs have not been occupied given how deep we sit behind Tammy, and are the immediate outlet ball to break on our back four, which translates to at least one wide player AND their two strikers, already in behind our midfield and in on our back four. 

Just breaking it down like that, my own interpretation would be the fault lies with our full backs who are not getting forward over the halfway line to provide an outlet when we are in possession (chimes with what I have been seeing), nor cancelling out the opposition full backs when we can't get the ball to anyone? 

 

However, as a matter of curiosity I just went and scanned through the 90 minutes Fulham FC posted of our 4-0 win. While it's true our full backs did get over halfway more to mop up loose balls to keep attacking possession going, the really obvious difference is how high a line our attacking midfield was playing.

When Pack got the ball or a ball is played upfield by Fielding or the defence, all 4 of our attacking midfielders (in that case Tomlin, Reid, Paterson, Freeman) are in the opposition half, and often at least two of them close to or overlapping Abraham. To my eye that simply isn't happening in our formation anymore.

In recent games Tammy has been isolated as much as a third of the pitch from teammates, and our attacking midfield is at most only three players, none of whom are beyond the halfway line as a matter of course, and each of whom end up relying on solo runs (not short passing) given distance between them all.

Fulham on reflection looked more like 4-1-4-1 that became 4-3-3 in possession. Recent formation (notwithstanding relentless personnel change) looks a more conventional 4-5-1 lined up 4-2-3-1 but where we never seem to develop an actual 3 man attack in possession. The difference compared to Fulham is stark.

I'm going to say something really unpopular...but out biggest problem playing 'possession' football is TOMLIN,

When playing 'possession' football you need to know the shape of your team and where players are going to be.

Knowing the shape of the team is important. You need to learn where your team-mates are, so when in a game you will know where to find them naturally, without thinking.

 

You always need to be on the move and watch where your marker is. Vary your movement – run in behind and then come short, or vice-versa. Make your marker feel uncomfortable by running into areas where they don’t want to go. The key is to get a bit of space so you can look for the pass or run with the ball, but once you’ve made a pass don’t sit back and admire it.

 

And this is where it goes wrong when we allow Tomlin to have a free role and go wandering. Our players don't know where he's going, we lose shape, and then we stop moving, as they don't want to be in the wrong place because Tomlin has left a massive gap or two opponents on one of ours when we lose possession.

 

Tomlin goes wandering around at a very slow pace...plays a pass, then often stops and 'admires' it...or points to where he wants it going next. We become static....players are afraid to move for fear of losing possession and being two on one.

 

Tomlin needs to play just off Tammy and not move from the final third. That way, the rest of the team can move as a unit and know exactly where everyone is.

 

When Tomlin is reined in a little we play much better....when he goes wandering, we become lost.

 

Personally I think Tomlin and GoN have way too much power in this squad. In fact I'm inclined to think GoN's injury right now is not what we are led to believe. Wouldn't be surprised if he left in January.

 

As a side note...the game is played at a very high tempo these days. Players often play it sideways to get a breather and recharge...notice it happen often after a frantic period of play. Or a player will go down and fake injury for a while.

[Olé]

Makes loads of sense @spudski thanks - matches up to what I've seen but hadn't put my finger on how much Tomlin drifting was removing the rehearsed/understood passing lanes and outlets for everyone else.

[Davefevs]

@spudski and @Olé - I said a couple of weeks ago that Tammy and Tomlin are part of the problem, becoming undroppable (although LT did miss one game).  It wasn't meant to be total criticism, but the shape is massively influenced by where LT goes, especially when only playing Tammy on his own.  Versus PNE the first 15mins he was right up alongside TA, and both Bryan and Matthews got on the outside beyond the edge of the 18 yard box and got crosses in.  This was because all the players knew where they had to be in their 'patterns of play'.  It boded well.  But LT started drifting deep, meaning other players were forced to get alongside Tammy, busting the shape (not dance moves ), especially when we lost the ball.

I wasn't at Fulham, but when your wide midfielders can join in with play 'inside' (not running inside with the ball - closing the space) and get close to Tammy, space is created for the full-backs to get round the back.

Too often of late, Bryan and Freeman hug the touchline, waiting for passes, never allowing the opportunity for the full-back to create the overlap.  In fairness v PNE Matthews managed a couple of great balls inside GC for Freeman to run onto, but that's different to what I'm saying.

No-one other than Tammy ever goes in behind the Centre-Backs.  Therefore our centre midfielders never get to close the space and play that high-tempo pressing game either.

It isn't as simple as changing formation, but it is about players being disciplined (to an extent).