'We need more characters'

[downendcity]

54 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

You're right. 

And...... fans want winning football not pretty possession based football.... that can be added to a winning, comfident team. 

Is it just me or is LJ morphing into SOD (tactically not looks or personality!)

Except that when we do get winning football, a lot of fans still aren't happy as they want to be entertained  by pretty passing football. 

Another thread implies that fans are the cause of our problems, but I don't agree. Where I do think City fans can be fickle is that when we do have some success, such as winning promotion or winning one game on the bounce!, there is always something wrong with it.

 

[Mendip City]

16 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

The "character" thing is covered by the "DNA" thing. One and the same thing. 

It is sad, and I take no delight in any of this. But someone amongst LJ, MA, SL, the board has to come under scrutiny for all this. And it won't happen in the local media.

 

 

Spot on. 

The club has the local media by the nuts so there'll be no challenge. 

They are all getting away with it plus whoever is responsible for assessing the "fitness" of Ekstrand and Matthews and didn't have Tomlin ready for the start of the season. 

[spudski]

23 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Spot on. 

 

Out of interest who has fallen out with LJ, how do you know this? 

GoN and Tomlin have had 'Words' and falling out. Not 100% sure of the outcome or whether everything has been resolved. My gut is that it has been with Tomlin but maybe not GoN. Have been told from various pro's in the game, one a scout, another an agent....and then confirmed by the father of one of the regular first team players. Other forum members have heard the same and spoke about it by pm.

[Manon]

2 hours ago, Olé said:

I read this last night several times and continue to have absolutely no idea what it means. 

What is a character? Someone with a personality? Someone who plays with personality?

What are the current players doing or not doing to negate them from being "characters"?

I agree as a team we play in such a way as to not express any character or quick instinct.

I'd naively thought that the right instructions should allow anyone to express themselves?

Seriously? 

[steviestevieneville]

2 hours ago, Londoner said:

No its because we have a manager who doesn't understand what he's doing .

 

No, it's you who don't know what you're talking about . You simply do not understand where the club is at in its rebuilding . You constantly embarrass yourself . Give it a rest ffs. 

[Londoner]

3 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

No, it's you who don't know what you're talking about . You simply do not understand where the club is at in its rebuilding . You constantly embarrass yourself . Give it a rest ffs. 

Ah yes, we as a club are miles behind Barnsley brentford Preston etc in terms of stadium investment finances aren't we....

Complete nonsense from those who may know about bristol city but not the other sides in this league. 

Stop giving excuses.

[steviestevieneville]

3 minutes ago, Londoner said:

Ah yes, we as a club are miles behind Barnsley brentford Preston etc in terms of stadium investment finances aren't we....

Complete nonsense from those who may know about bristol city but not the other sides in this league. 

Stop giving excuses.

This is what I mean about your lack of understanding even though it comes across as if you're gods gift to football.  It's got nothing to do with the stadium or finances compared to teams around us. We, have set out a policy of mainly trying to bring in young players to improve them and us over a number of years. Sprinkled with a few older players to help bring them on. If as you claim you know anything about football then you would know that young players develop at different times in their fledgling careers . Some have come in and done well , others not so as yet. We are a work in progress and will have runs of form as we are at present . It will take time to gel and I don't think we will see the true benefits until next season at the earliest . This has also been hindered by SC pie in the sky attempts to make us run before we could walk two summers ago. It's seems the way you arrogantly come across that a wave of a magic wand, splash a few million and sack a young coach who is highly regarded in the game that everything will be ok. Well it won't .  

[Fiale]

41 minutes ago, spudski said:

As you know mate...players have fallen out with LJ. But is that LJ's fault or the players? I don't think LJ has done anything particularly wrong tbh. I think the biggest failing are the performances of some of our players, many underachieving. Tomlin, GoN, Matthews, RoD, Fielding, to name a few.

Fans seem to think it's easy for a manager to make some players work harder and bust a gut...but it's not. It's not that simple.

I look at Flint and Magners and they have their limitations, but they work their socks off at the back. You can't fault them. Little is 100%...but not good enough. Not his fault. I get the impression Tomlin, GoN and Matthews think they are better than everyone else, and feel they can get away with blaming others for their own lack of desire and poor performances. Then you have the likes of Wilbs who is a completely different character, and could quite easily be the same...but he's not...if only our more experienced pros would bust a gut like him.

This is one of the things that annoy me, GoN is one of the best central midfielders in the Championship, yet his performances, energy, have been appalling in most games. We have seen glimpses, I used to be happy/excited to see his name on the team sheet - now it's just a mehhh, because I know whether he's in the team or not is not important as his performances have been so mediocre.

Tomlin, one of the best AM in the championship.... when he can be bothered. And to be honest he seems to care less and less. He cannot defend, so let's not expect or criticise him for that, but with the freedom he is given I expect so much more. His glimpses of magic have all but disappeared and his 1 or 2 sublime passes in a game is just not enough to justify his position (especially when not putting in a defensive shift, if we take 10 chances to convert).

Matthews, I think he had no offers over the summer and it was us or continue to train with the youth team. He is nowhere near the player we saw last season. Again one of the best Left backs in this division, but he just seems to coasts, and with his fitness and injury problems as well has proven to be a waste of space.

 

If those 3 players alone, pulled their socks up, left their egos in their lockers and gave 100% every game then we would see much better results. But all 3 seem to be just going through the motions, pointing, blaming, jogging around not really doing their jobs... if they are not going to perform drop them....   

[nickolas]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

GoN and Tomlin have had 'Words' and falling out. Not 100% sure of the outcome or whether everything has been resolved. My gut is that it has been with Tomlin but maybe not GoN. Have been told from various pro's in the game, one a scout, another an agent....and then confirmed by the father of one of the regular first team players. Other forum members have heard the same and spoke about it by pm.

Oh god, Marlon's dad has been gossip spreading again! 

[Olé]

44 minutes ago, spudski said:

As you know mate...players have fallen out with LJ.

I didn't know if that was anymore than a rumour, but it makes the "character" comment even more frustrating because what it's really saying is: I've fallen out with the characters I have, so now I need some new ones.

I agree fall outs can always be down to player egos, but it's going to be slow and/or expensive to build a team if the manager can't manage "characters" or feels compelled to surround himself with much younger players.

In business I've seen young managers never hire the best people and always hire younger than themselves so not to feel second guessed. It is rarely the right way to progress and says more about their self-confidence. 

I have wondered before, genuinely sympathetically, if LJ suffers this too. It would be understandable. He's a young and unproven manager. I'm sure he believes in his principles but perhaps is uncertain of how others regard him.

This would explain not just any fall out with older players, but also why we focussed on buying these supposed first-team ready young players who are not actually starting many games and evidently really "for the future".

 

In any case, historically I would always have sided with the manager not players, as we've cycled through enough wasters on the playing staff. But this time the players are largely assembled under LJ/MA's own fanfare.

And if there is any dissent I would suggest on this occasion it says a lot about players reaction to instructions or approaches they don't believe in, given that the exact same reaction has been true for some supporters too.

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Olé said:

I didn't know if that was anymore than a rumour, but it makes the "character" comment even more frustrating because what it's really saying is: I've fallen out with the characters I have, so now I need some new ones.

I agree fall outs can always be down to player egos, but it's going to be slow and/or expensive to build a team if the manager can't manage "characters" or feels compelled to surround himself with much younger players.

In business I've seen young managers never hire the best people and always hire younger than themselves so not to feel second guessed. It is rarely the right way to progress and says more about their self-confidence. 

I have wondered before, genuinely sympathetically, if LJ suffers this too. It would be understandable. He's a young and unproven manager. I'm sure he believes in his principles but perhaps is uncertain of how others regard him.

This would explain not just any fall out with older players, but also why we focussed on buying these supposed first-team ready young players who are not actually starting many games and evidently really "for the future".

 

In any case, historically I would always have sided with the manager not players, as we've cycled through enough wasters on the playing staff. But this time the players are largely assembled under LJ/MA's own fanfare.

And if there is any dissent I would suggest on this occasion it says a lot about players reaction to instructions or approaches they don't believe in, given that the exact same reaction has been true for some supporters too.

Not sure it's saying that fella...perhaps he means we need 'Characters' like Wilbs as an example...good pros that will bust a gut for you and help and get behind the manager. He's done it for both SC and LJ and every manager before that. That's the type of 'Character' we need.

[bearded_red]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Did MA or LJ give any indication that they were unhappy at the end of the Summer Window ?

Haha! Not exactly!

We surely all remember the Mark Ashton back patting tour?

Look how many players we've signed. Look how young they are. Look how much we sold Kodjia for. Look how ******* great I am.

The whole thing was embarrassing then let alone now. I remember getting a text from my mate that supports Villa saying 'when is your open top bus tour for the Kodjia fee'. Annoyingly I agreed with his sentiments entirely.

[Olé]

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure it's saying that fella...perhaps he means we need 'Characters' like Wilbs as an example...good pros that will bust a gut for you and help and get behind the manager. He's done it for both SC and LJ and every manager before that. That's the type of 'Character' we need.

Fair enough. I don't know the squad dynamic, I go on what LJ/MA feed us, and had thought GoN was billed by them both as a high-character type of guy, leader, worker, essential part of the team. If we're now saying we need characters while in the background there's suggestion of a falling out with a character like him, we do need to make sure either we're fixing the right problem (why are current characters not working) and/or recruiting correctly (DNA and all that).

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I thought Luke Ayling was 'a character' - a 100% enthusiastic battler on the pitch and massively popular in the dressing room.

A key component in our previously much lauded exceptional squad spirit under SC.

How much of that spirit remains today? 

 

How much of that spirit remained in the last couple of months of SCs tenure?

I would say zero (his own doing) but it was a mistake selling Ayling just like it was a mistake getting rid of Cunningham

[bristolcitysweden]

This club should have been put under adult guardian 36 years ago

[Londoner]

58 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

This is what I mean about your lack of understanding even though it comes across as if you're gods gift to football.  It's got nothing to do with the stadium or finances compared to teams around us. We, have set out a policy of mainly trying to bring in young players to improve them and us over a number of years. Sprinkled with a few older players to help bring them on. If as you claim you know anything about football then you would know that young players develop at different times in their fledgling careers . Some have come in and done well , others not so as yet. We are a work in progress and will have runs of form as we are at present . It will take time to gel and I don't think we will see the true benefits until next season at the earliest . This has also been hindered by SC pie in the sky attempts to make us run before we could walk two summers ago. It's seems the way you arrogantly come across that a wave of a magic wand, splash a few million and sack a young coach who is highly regarded in the game that everything will be ok. Well it won't .  

And other sides aren't doing the same? That philosophy is mirrored by Brentford and Barnsley....m what makes recent events even more inexcusable is that they don't have the resources to get a Tomlin O'Neil etc to support them!!! You should know that but clearly don't. 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

8 minutes ago, Londoner said:

And other sides aren't doing the same? That philosophy is mirrored by Brentford and Barnsley....m what makes recent events even more inexcusable is that they don't have the resources to get a Tomlin O'Neil etc to support them!!! You should know that but clearly don't. 

Do you ever get tired from being wrong?

I guess your arrogance and condescension covers up the failings in most of your posts I've read recently

[steviestevieneville]

11 minutes ago, Londoner said:

And other sides aren't doing the same? That philosophy is mirrored by Brentford and Barnsley....m what makes recent events even more inexcusable is that they don't have the resources to get a Tomlin O'Neil etc to support them!!! You should know that but clearly don't. 

Your arrogance holds no bounds does it . You are utterly clueless . Do me a favour and stay in London that's even if you watch us live. 

[SedRA]

10 minutes ago, Olé said:

Fair enough. I don't know the squad dynamic, I go on what LJ/MA feed us, and had thought GoN was billed by them both as a high-character type of guy, leader, worker, essential part of the team. If we're now saying we need characters while in the background there's suggestion of a falling out with a character like him, we do need to make sure either we're fixing the right problem (why are current characters not working) and/or recruiting correctly (DNA and all that).

Whilst I was impressed with some of GON's early performances I've never taken to his personality in interviews. IMO he comes across as subtly arrogant, maybe being brought in as the 'experienced, multiple times promoted captain' has gone to his head, or feels that this poor run is blotting his copybook. I've got the impression that despite all the talk of the 'project' he's here for the paycheck really. 

All postulation of course as I don't have any insider info but thought I'd throw it into the mix after hearing about the apparent fall out with LJ. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

How much of that spirit remained in the last couple of months of SCs tenure?

 

The squad spirit was still there right up to the end, something Pembo was able to tap into with immediate effect.

Some players even said the ensuing improved results were for the departed manager who was clearly greatly liked and respected by a squad he had mostly signed and elevated into Champions while playing in the most memorable season many of them will ever experience.

You can knock SC all you like ( and you will) but the players loved playing for him and squad spirit he engendered was second to none and something we may never see equalled at AG again.

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, Mendip City said:

His old man used to interview players before signing them. 

Youre right it's falling apart. 

Im beginning to think sticking Wilbraham in temporary charge wouldn't be a bad idea.... see if he can drive a bit of passion from them. 

We are drifting back to being a nice club again, and easy club, retirement home. 

You advocate sticking Wilbs in as coach , then condemn the club as a ' retirement ' home ! 

Incoherent argument, I'm afraid. 

 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

34 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

The squad spirit was still there right up to the end, something Pembo was able to tap into with immediate effect.

Some players even said the ensuing improved results were for the departed manager who was clearly greatly liked and respected by a squad he had mostly signed and elevated into Champions while playing in the most memorable season many of them will ever experience.

You can knock SC all you like ( and you will) but the players loved playing for him and squad spirit he engendered was second to none and something we may never see equalled at AG again.

That's debatable (the first highlighted part) I suggest you watch again the last part of his tenure, particuarly Reading. The only one who gave his all was Wilbs and anyone could see he was knackered thanks to Cotterills obsession to play him 90min when he wasn't fit enough. The dissension on the pitch was there for all to see

Good reason to, he was abysmal in the Championship... his record (championship) was worse than LJ, S'OD and Del. Would've had more sympathy for the man if he wasn't so rigid and dogged with his tactics, refusal to utilise his entire squad (loans included) fell out with players (Fredericks, Cunningham) and jeopardised the clubs position in this division not because we weren't good enough to consolidate because he wanted to make some tired point to the board.

And my final point on Cotterill, if he seriously felt let down by this board then he should've walked last summer with his held high of the job he did getting us promoted. His stock would've been high while the board would have incurred the wrath of the fans. He is at fault just as much as the board and as many have faulted LJ and the buck stops with him regarding results then I suggest that the buck stops with Cotterill regarding results to. 2 wins in 28 is garbage no matter how you dress it up with this nonsense about spirit. 

But I guess fans have different agendas, I for one was happy to give SC time but his grace ran out in December and no doubt LJ if he can't snap this bad run then he will be gone as well

And just to add to that, you say players wanted to get results for the departed manager (SC). They also said it for S'OD hated by many on here, that included players like Carey so in my view its recycled hash and the usual predictability that you find with players who have cost the manager their job by failing to perform

 

 

[Londoner]

53 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

Do you ever get tired from being wrong?

I guess your arrogance and condescension covers up the failings in most of your posts I've read recently

So in other words you've realised that I'm right.....that other clubs in the league have the same youth development philosophy as us.....with fewer resources and money, yet exceeding expectations and doing significantly better than us.

It's allwell and good you posting the above, but in reality it just shows that you haven't got any legs to stand on regarding your argument. 

[GodEmperor Palpatine]

5 minutes ago, Londoner said:

So in other words you've realised that I'm right.....that other clubs in the league have the same youth development philosophy as us.....with fewer resources and money, yet exceeding expectations and doing significantly better than us.

It's allwell and good you posting the above, but in reality it just shows that you haven't got any legs to stand on regarding your argument. 

And you have no legs in any of your posts, who can respect a poster who is so far up his own arse that they basically calls everyone else wrong? I would hazard a guess that you're either a troll or a WUM.

For the record I completely disagree with you

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

My bank asked me for a password which was eight characters long.

I chose Snow White and the seven dwarves.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Emperor Palpatine said:

And you have no legs in any of your posts, who can respect a poster who is so far up his own arse that they basically calls everyone else wrong? I would hazard a guess that you're either a troll or a WUM.

For the record I completely disagree with you

I'm still waiting for @Londoner to explain what qualifies him for his clearer understanding of the game than anyone else, and what relevance 'academia' has in that.  I'm not being facetious, I genuinely want to know and the correlation.  But he/she refrains. Care to let us into your reasons?

As for @Jack Dawe I can accept his view being different to mine (not all the time to be fair) because he's not arrogant in his responses, might be a bit blunt at times, but forums are often like that....and you can have a debate with him.

[chinapig]

3 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

I don't like it either. I want us to do well, but I am afraid to say that I really can't see us turning the corner with LJ I really can't because he cannot seem to address the basic issues. 

When Pulis went to Palace they were heading straight back to the Championship. Their players didn't seem good enough, but he immediately stopped them from losing games. Lee isn't doing this. Let's get some points in the bag, remove immediate pressure and then try to find that winning formula. 

I don't care how tikka takka our football is I want to stay in the Championship first and foremost.

As it happens, Pulis has just said on radio how important it is not to waste money on players who are not going to improve the first 11. There may be a lesson there about being so focused on the long term strategy you neglect the present. Could turn into a case of the operation was a great success but the patient died.

[Londoner]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I'm still waiting for @Londoner to explain what qualifies him for his clearer understanding of the game than anyone else, and what relevance 'academia' has in that.  I'm not being facetious, I genuinely want to know and the correlation.  But he/she refrains. Care to let us into your reasons?

As for @Jack Dawe I can accept his view being different to mine (not all the time to be fair) because he's not arrogant in his responses, might be a bit blunt at times, but forums are often like that....and you can have a debate with him.

Nothing qualifies me on paper, I am a firm believer that academics are able to read and understand a wide range of situations, once analysed and processed, to a greater extent than some others. I'm not saying people are better than others, because no doubt there are skills posters have that I don't...

However, when it comes to football, and especially this league, you just need to see things I write and you will see that I'm rarely wrong....I know the league inside out, I have a strong understanding of Bristol city as a club.... and having played and coached to high levels I think that gives me a sound basis, which combined with my academic mind enables me to really understand football concepts. 

[Wolf Island]

4 minutes ago, Londoner said:

Nothing qualifies me on paper, I am a firm believer that academics are able to read and understand a wide range of situations, once analysed and processed, to a greater extent than some others. I'm not saying people are better than others, because no doubt there are skills posters have that I don't...

However, when it comes to football, and especially this league, you just need to see things I write and you will see that I'm rarely wrong....I know the league inside out, I have a strong understanding of Bristol city as a club.... and having played and coached to high levels I think that gives me a sound basis, which combined with my academic mind enables me to really understand football concepts. 

You have a particular set of skills, no doubt about that.

[Davefevs]

18 minutes ago, Londoner said:

Nothing qualifies me on paper, I am a firm believer that academics are able to read and understand a wide range of situations, once analysed and processed, to a greater extent than some others. I'm not saying people are better than others, because no doubt there are skills posters have that I don't...

However, when it comes to football, and especially this league, you just need to see things I write and you will see that I'm rarely wrong....I know the league inside out, I have a strong understanding of Bristol city as a club.... and having played and coached to high levels I think that gives me a sound basis, which combined with my academic mind enables me to really understand football concepts. 

Thank you for replying.